Tightgroup And Other Fast Powders- No Good For Cast?

[Hanzy4200]

Prior to beginning my new hobby of casting, I fell in love with Titegroup. It's cheap, burns fairly clean, meters perfectly, and is very economical. I was using it for a short while with commercial cast bullets in 9MM and .45 ACP with decent results. However, after chatting with a couple guys at the range, and reading some "internet experts" advice, I'm beginning to second guess my choice. The advice entails that the faster powders supposedly melt the bullet base, cause a inconsistent seal, and increase leading. It wouldn't be such a big deal, but I'm sitting on 15+ lbs. of the stuff and all I shoot is cast.

Is there truth to this?

[Scharfschuetze]

Nothing to it thinks I.

I've been using Tight Group in my revolver cartridges and straight wall rifle cases with cast boolits for years with excellent accuracy and sometimes almost unbelievable consistency over the chronograph.

I just bought two pounds of the stuff to tide me over for this winter's shooting.

[GaryN]

They don't know what they are talking about. Boolits bases don't melt. They are probably shooting undersized hard boolits and it is causing leading. I am looking for some tightgroup now to try. I have been shooting Bullseye in my 45 acp and I get zero leading.

[303Guy]

... the faster powders supposedly melt the bullet base, cause a inconsistent seal, and increase leading.Three myths in a row! The melting of the boolit base is the best one. Cause an inconsistent seal? :confused:

Tightgroup has worked for you so far, it won't stop now just because someone thinks it shouldn't work. ;-)

[grouch]

What does your gun say? That's the only opinion that counts.
Grouch

[kenjuudo]

87531

[44man]

87531
This is perfect!

[dg31872]

My 45acp loves Tightgroup with RCBS 45-201. Use it and don't look back!

[jonp]

87531

^^^Sweet!

I guess I'll have to sell the Promo I have. Anyone want 16lbs of it?? :kidding:

[rattletrap1970]

Pretty much if you want to know ANYTHING about shooting cast bullets well. This is the place.
In fact, if you go to a lot of Youtube videos that "SHOW" how to do things may of the reference THIS site.
I have found in about 90% of the cases where I've heard banter ant the range, the folks talking didn't know anything they were talking about.

[Gunslinger]

As I understand it too fast a powder for at light weight lead bullet can cause the bullet to skid over the rifling instead of gripping the rifling. I have used N320 with lead bullets for years without issues. And seeing as tightgroup is even slower I can't see why it should cause a problem. I have tried using Vectan AS which was I think too fast (it is faster than N320). With a WW boolit 0.001" over groove I got leading.

[ShooterAZ]

Tite Group is one of my favorites, I like it better than Bullseye. 231 is another good one for cast. Unique is a big favorite as well.

[prs]

Guys at the range must be the same experts at the local gun shop. Let's see, fast powders like TG and BE and and and have never served us well, right???? Tight Group certainly does very well for me in 1911's with 200 grain lead alloy SWC boolits. The only problem I see with it is availability and I only have about 4# left on my shelf.

prs

[btroj]

I sure hope nobody tells all the bullseye shooters using, well, Bullseye.

[Larry Gibson]

Bullseye is also my favorite but I won't pass up Tite Group either. I wonder what those "experts" think is loaded in the bajillion .22 rimfire cartridges and almost all lead bullet handgun cartridges sold other than "fast burning powders".......the BS and ignorance is amazing sometimes.........

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

Worst place to get "advice" on shooting stuff is online. Second worst is a gunshop followed closely by a guy at the range.

[pmer]

As I understand it too fast a powder for at light weight lead bullet can cause the bullet to skid over the rifling instead of gripping the rifling.

That's how I know when I have too much Unique in the cartridge. :lovebooli

[Jeff H]

Back in the day,.... you'd have to visit sixteen gun shops over the course of several months to collect the baloney you can ingest in minutes on the Internet.

Fast powders and "lead" bullets have accounted for 95 percent of my shooting in both handgun AND rifles - and I use what most would consider to be pretty soft bullets, very gooey lube or a very thin coat of liquid alox for most of that shooting (and even my shooting with 2400, H110 and Lil'Gun), plus, I rarely use gas checks. I break most of the rules born of unsolicited advice and almost everything someone else told me would work did not and almost everything someone told me wouldn't work DID.

The easiest way to deal with it is to just say "no kiddin'? I didn't know that" and then let them go on their way and continue to shoot jacketed for everything. The only time I counter such nonsense is when someone who is genuinely trying to learn is inquiring or is exposed to what splatters when the experts are pitching.

[Outpost75]

I use Bullseye with cast in all my recreational calibers from the .32 ACP to the .375 H&H.

Here are my loads, which I have used for many years with predictable and satisfactory results.

Use standard primers and NO FILLERS!

Soft alloys 10-12 BHN work best, I load most bullets as-cast and unsized, lubricated with Lee Lquid Alox.

Outpost's Alliant Bullseye Data

.32 ACP______71 FMJ____ 2.2___850 Min. OAL 0.955” Do Not Reduce
_____________________2.4___905 Max, use in steel frames only. Do Not Exceed
____________88 LFN____1.5___620 Quiet for rifle insert adapters, Do NOT Reduce
_____________________1.7___720 Max for Keltec and light alloy frames
_____________________2.0___800 Max, do not exceed, use in steel frames only
************************************************** ***************
.32 S&W Long___88 LFN___2.5___850 Max. S&W Hand Ejector
_______________________3.0___950 Max, Do Not Exceed in S&W M31
______________93 LHP___2.5___830 Max. S&W Hand Ejector
______________________3.0___900 Max. Do Not Exceed in S&W M31
______________98 SWC___2.0___750 Approximates Factory Velocity
_______________________2.5___850 Max. for S&W Hand Ejector
______________115 LFN___2.5___750 DO NOT use in pre-war S&W Hand Ejector, OK in Mods 30, 31
_______________________3.0___850 OK in Ruger at OAL 1.32” to feed in Marlin .32 HRM
************************************************** ******************
.38 Special____148 HBWC___2.5___700 Indoor gallery, Do Not Reduce
________________________3.2___800 Do Not Exceed with soft swaged BWC
_____________146 DEWC___3.5__850 Full Charge with solid base cast DEWC only
________________________4.0___900 +P .38 Special load for use in suitable firearms only
_____________147 LFN_____3.5___750 Practice and Cowboy Load
________________________4.0___850 Approximates +P Service
_____________155LHP_____3.5___750 Cowboy load, OK in S&W Hand Ejector, Older Colts
________________________4.0___850 Approximates +P Service
************************************************** **************
.357 Mag._____180 LHP____4.0___950 Rifle Velocity in 24” bbl. Low noise, accurate
_______________________4.5___1080 ok up to 5.0 grs. in .357 brass as Needed for best accuracy
************************************************** **************
.44 Magnum____246 LFN___6.0___850 Ruger SBH 5-1/2”
______________260 Saeco__7.0___900 Ruger SBH Approximates old factory Medium Velocity
______________240 SJHP___8.0___1030 Ruger SBH Do not exceed
************************************************** **************
.45 ACP________200 SWC___4.5___860 H&G68 50 yard target, IDPA, and IPSC
______________230 LFN____4.5___800 Saeco #954 or RCBS 45-230CM "Cowboy Spl,"
______________260 LFN___4.0___680 Saeco #955 Cowboy load
************************************************** **************
.45 Colt________230 LFN___6.5___880 Saeco #954 accurate in old Colts
______________260 LFN___6.5___850 Saeco #955 approximates factory velocity
************************************************** **************
7.62x39________162 HM2___4.5___1100 Small game /gallery, does not cycle, manual feed.
************************************************** **************
.30-30_________152LFN___4.0___900 Do Not Reduce, “Cat Sneeze”
_______________________6.0___1200 100 yard target and small game
_______________175LHP___7.0___1300 Do NOT Exceed! approximates .32-40 ballistics
************************************************** **************
.30-40 Krag____162 HM2___6.0___1080 Small game and 100-yd. target
And .303 Brit.___220 CBE___8.0___1200 Do Not Exceed
************************************************** **************
.30-’06________120 FN___4.0___1000 Do Not Reduce
_____________152 LFN___6.0___1080 Small game and 100 yd. target
_____________ 162 HM2___8.4___1300_200 yard target, Do Not Exceed
************************************************** **************
.375 H&H______260FN____10.0___1000 Do Not Reduce
______________260FN____13.0___1300 Do Not Exceed, approximates .38-55 WCF

[Garyshome]

I like Titegroup, use it all the time, I need to get more not much left.

[mdi]

Let's see, you loaded with Titegroup and liked it. Your loads shot well and you got little/no leading. Then someone tells you it won't work with cast bullets? And you believed them? :???: My guns don't pay much if any attention to "experts". They tell me what they like...

[paul h]

Looking at targets at the handgun range, most shooters shouldn't even be handling handguns, and have absolutely no business giving advice on handloading. Or as others have put it, they should be listening to advice, not giving it.

Asside from getting the seating depth and crimp right, and picking a bullet design that feeds reliably, the 45 acp is one of the easiest rounds to get a good load for with cast bullets. A properly sized cast bullet and almost any fast handgun/shotgun powder, medium speed as well, will be capable of good to exceptional accuracy and little to no leading. The 45 isn't picky on alloy type or lube type and simply doesn't stress a cast bullet at all. The small powder charge is easily ignited in the short powder column and the round is tollerent of a very broad range of powders from the fastest to medium burn rate.

[fredj338]

Some truth to it actually. TG burns really hot, seems to produce lots of smoke & with some bullet lubes, you'll see more leading. That & the stupidly small volume charges keep from using it. Something like VV320, expensive, or WST are "better" replacements for TG or BE IMO. Powder is the cheap part of reloading handgun rounds today, primers cost twice the powder charge. I don't look at powder cost to save $$, well except for VV.

[Down South]

Setting up to load several hundred 9mm MP 359-125 Bollits with Titegroup now.

[jonp]

Bullseye is also my favorite but I won't pass up Tite Group either. I wonder what those "experts" think is loaded in the bajillion .22 rimfire cartridges and almost all lead bullet handgun cartridges sold other than "fast burning powders".......the BS and ignorance is amazing sometimes.........

Larry Gibson

This might be covered in a thread somewhere but you wouldn't happen to know what powder they do use in .22 rimfire would you Larry? I've always kinda wondered but never took the time to find out

[jonp]

Worst place to get "advice" on shooting stuff is online. Second worst is a gunshop followed closely by a guy at the range.
umm...Aren't we online now? ;)

[Hanzy4200]

Well I'm glad to hear it from the real experts. This is why I joined this forum. Deep down, I felt like it was all BS, but once you hear it, then hear it again, you begin to doubt your position. As I said initially, I love Titegroup. No other powder meters as well for me, and a lb. of it lasts forever. It also only costs $17 per lb., compared to $21-$25 per lb. of the other brands. I started using it based on availability. Wal-Mart has been my only source for reasonably priced powder since the panic, and Tightgroup is one they have gotten semi-regularly.

Thank you guys for easing my mind.

[paul h]

One thing I've learned over the decades of loading and casting is therre are no absolutes. Also many people like to extrapolate one or two cases of success or failure to every gun, bullet and load.

Trust your targets, shot with your bullets, in your loads and through your guns. Then use that to filter the :groner: "expert" information you hear at the range and in the gunshop.

[btroj]

umm...Aren't we online now? ;)

We are the exception.

[Mal Paso]

In 44 Mag Titegroup is great for subsonic rounds. Hodgdon however lists up to 10g behind a 240g lead boolit for a speed of 1288 fps. Back when I tried it anything close to 10g would lead the barrel for me

[HangFireW8]

Self appointed experts baffle me. I was at a yard sale this summer and I scored some fishing sinkers. The seller picked up a conversation and told me he doesn't cast, but he knew from his buddy you had to have just so much beeswax in my "wax" not to little and not to much, I tried to contribute to the conversation but he had to stress this point over and over so much I never got the chance.

[gray wolf]

R E D I C U L A S -------- Go and buy more.

[engineer401]

I use only Titegroup in my pistol loads exclusively with very good luck.

[Brett]

I use titegroup in .32 acp, .38 spc, .40 sw, and .45 acp. No problems so far.

[kayak1]

Just loaded 4K 9mm 135 grain HM2 cast with 3.5grains of Titegroup. I like it and my M&P likes it.
I have been using LSStuff Carnauba Red ( http://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=12 ) without any leading.

I just need to find a lefty wheel gun, as I seem to pickup a lot of brass. Then again I return from the range with a lot more then I went with.

[Bzcraig]

87531


I want one of these!

[oldgeezershooter]

Some truth to it actually. TG burns really hot, seems to produce lots of smoke & with some bullet lubes, you'll see more leading. That & the stupidly small volume charges keep from using it. Something like VV320, expensive, or WST are "better" replacements for TG or BE IMO. Powder is the cheap part of reloading handgun rounds today, primers cost twice the powder charge. I don't look at powder cost to save $$, well except for VV.
I have never seen a "Heat" graph on how one powder could burn hotter than another.
Seems like burn rate more than anything else.

[MtGun44]

Total baloney. If anything, faster is BETTER, whacks the boolit in the butt harder
and helps it obturate if it needs to.

I have used up several hundred thousand rounds worth of TG in .45 ACP, great stuff
and also have used W231 and many 8 lbers of Bullseye.

Bill

[rintinglen]

No, wait a minute, those guys at the range were absolutely right. Fortunately, I am an authorized powder disposal agent and can take that improper and unsafe stuff off your hands before your barrels get all leaded up.:kidding:

If you had a dollar for every pound of Tight Group that has gone down the barrel of a 45 ACP, you'd be well on your way to your next new pick up truck! It is good stuff--which explains why I haven't been able to get any here locally for quite some time.

[mdi]

We are the exception.

Beyond a doubt. It's those other online forms that are questionable...:o

[mdi]

Self appointed experts baffle me. I was at a yard sale this summer and I scored some fishing sinkers. The seller picked up a conversation and told me he doesn't cast, but he knew from his buddy you had to have just so much beeswax in my "wax" not to little and not to much, I tried to contribute to the conversation but he had to stress this point over and over so much I never got the chance.
Unfortunately, there are some folks that, for some reason, must be an "expert"...

[22 rifle]

an expert is a guy with a briefcase 100 miles away from home!:D

[olafhardt]

I was set upat a gun show at Hot Springs Arkansas which is not that far from the Huge Remington ammo plant at Lonoke Arkansas. Big Green had the endcap next to me and I chatted with a guy who seemed high up in manufacturing there. He told me he used a ton (2000lbs, 14 million grains) of Bullseye per day. Now that's a lot of powder and this was maybe 20 years ago. Weren't all those bullets lead but a lot of them were. And that might have been different than canister grade Bullseye. I once read about special batches of Bullseye being available to ammo manufacturers.

[458mag]

^^^Sweet!

I guess I'll have to sell the Promo I have. Anyone want 16lbs of it?? :kidding:

can I get it in a 5lb bag?

[jlchucker]

This is perfect!

Absolutely!

[jonp]

No, wait a minute, those guys at the range were absolutely right. Fortunately, I am an authorized powder disposal agent and can take that improper and unsafe stuff off your hands before your barrels get all leaded up.:kidding:

If you had a dollar for every pound of Tight Group that has gone down the barrel of a 45 ACP, you'd be well on your way to your next new pick up truck! It is good stuff--which explains why I haven't been able to get any here locally for quite some time.

I'm throwing the flag on you. I am the only officially authorized powder disposal agent here.

[Qc pistolero]

Altough Titegroup is not my favorite,I must say that it gives out good performance.Melt bullets base!!!!Sorry,but the stuff burns in such a short time that I can't see how it can do it!

Qc Pistolero

[Wolfer]

I've had good luck with tightgroup also. I guess I just didn't know any better. :smile:

[Ben]

Quickly wave a torch across the base of a case bullet. It will not melt the base of the cast bullet.

That act ( even doing it as quick as you can ) took more actual clock time than 2.7 grs. of Bullseye would have in a .38 Spec. revolver behind a 148 gr. plain base wadcutter bullet.

No truth to the melting of the base BS ! !

[btroj]

I don't believe old wives tales because I am not an old wife.

Some of this garbage just won't die or go away.

[303Guy]

But where on earth does all this cr#p originate? I've mentioned before that when I embarked on cast boolits in my 303 my shooting buddy 'convinced' me with his logic that it was not possible. He said the lead is just too soft for the rifling to grip the boolit. "Think about it" he said, "how is that soft boolit going to grip the rifling?" I answered him, "the same way a 22lr boolit does!" :mrgreen: At the farm where I tested them he just shut up. It shot sub-MOA! He was less vociferous when it came to paper patching and again the target proved him wrong. The point is this fellow was making a 'logical' assumption which was wrong. I could never convince him that entry wounds can be larger than exit wounds. I sometimes wonder how people like that manage to feed themselves and stay alive!:confused:

[bobthenailer]

DONOT let my guns hear that fast powder like BE & TG are no good with cast boolets ! thats why i keep them locked up in a safe so the dont here about such things !
I have been using Bullseye or Tightgroup powder for many years with cast boolets in 380, 9mm, 38 super, 38/357 mag, 44 mag , 45 acp & 454 casull for loads from 700 up to 1,100 fps with no issues in over 150,000 rounds fired.

[felix]

General REVOLTER (revolver) rule: leading at end of barrel, the boolit outran the lube;;;;leading at the front of the barrel, the lube outran and overshot the barrel allowing lead VAPORIZATION to occur which microscopically coats the barrel, and grows longer as more shots follow. The cure of the former is a longer lasting lube; the cure of the latter is a bigger diameter boolit when using the same lead & load. Adjustments are made via shooting experience, as further knowledge is gained about THAT gun. ... felix

[fredj338]

I have never seen a "Heat" graph on how one powder could burn hotter than another.
Seems like burn rate more than anything else.

SHoot a 10rds rapid fire string w/ TG, feel the bbl. Let it cool, shoot another 10rd sting w/ any other. The TG is hot, very hot.

[fredj338]

Altough Titegroup is not my favorite,I must say that it gives out good performance.Melt bullets base!!!!Sorry,but the stuff burns in such a short time that I can't see how it can do it!

Qc Pistolero
I don't think anyone said it melts bullet bases, but does a good job vaporizing some bullet lubes. Watch anyone shooting TG & lead bullets, the smoke is like black powder. To each his own, I won't use it, other "better" choices IMO.

[surfanarchist]

I've shot up about 15 pounds of TG in the last two years in .45 acp. I like it. One thing though do not leave it in the plastic hopper of your drop measure any extended length of time. It will react with and embed itself in the plastic. Probably true of most powders but TG really fuses with the plastic.

Lately I've started using IMR 7625 and I'm getting great results with it in .45 acp. The up side of the lack of availability of a lot of populer powders this past year is I've learned about and tried new powders. I'd still be using TG if I could only have found it!

[357mags]

Pure BS! Bullseye's my favorite, but never had a problem with Titegroup!