Shooting through brush?

[FergusonTO35]

Hey guys. Where I hunt in central and eastern Kentucky its mostly rolling, forested hills. The open spaces between the trees tend to be covered with fine brush, nothing larger than 5/16" or so. The past few days I've passed up a few shots on nice deer that were behind or standing in this brush. The brush is not super thick, you can plainly see the outline of the deer through it. I hate wounding animals and always thought that brush would deflect the bullet. After reading some experiences of other hunters on the 'net I'm thinking that I'm being too cautious about the brush. At the rate I'm going killing a deer is going to be a rare occasion indeed if I continue to hold out for a 100% brush free shot. The distance from me to the deer is seldom over 75 yards, my tools of choice are Marlins in .30 WCF and .45-70. What say you guys? Am I worrying about nothing and missing good opportunities? Thanks!

[Wolfer]

I never intentionly shoot a limb, but I have on several occasions hit a limb or small tree and still kill the deer or coyote behind it. A couple things they all had in common, they weren't very far behind it, the boolits or bullet was heavy and slow, none of the critters were hit where I was aiming. The entrance wound often looks like an exit wound. Sometimes the entrance will plainly show a boolit that landed sideways ( keyholed ). Oddly enough these all resulted in a dead critter. I've yet to find blood after hitting a limb and not get the animal. I hunt some really brushy country and I've been lucky I guess. Woody

[brtelec]

Years ago there was a video called Deadly Weapons and they demonstrated this with a pile of brush and a 50BMG. The 50 BMG when fired through thin brush the 50 BMG rounds were keyholing.

[M-Tecs]

This is counterintuitive but the big slow slugs deflect more than the fast high rpm smaller slugs. No shoulder fired bullet deals well with brush. They all deflect. People incorrectly believe that big and slow is better simply because they tend to hold together and when they do bounce into something they still have the mass to kill.

Again this is counterintuitive but I find if I use a good quality scope set on a power high enough that I can see all the twigs and brush I can pick a spot and slip it through.

[Dryball]

There was an article years ago...I think in American Hunter that posed this same question and the results were exactly as M-Tecs stated. It truly is sad that so many people think that a certain gun or caliber is a good "brush gun." There's just no such thing. If you must absoutely shoot through brush it should be done when the target is close to the barrier or obstruction, but why take a possibly wounding shot?

[303Guy]

Someone did a test a number of years ago and concluded that the best velocity for brush penetration/minimal deflection was 2400 fps. The heavier the boolit I would think, the better. I think the sectional density is important with a wider, lower sectional density boolit more likely to get tipped over by a peripheral impact.

I had an incident once in which I shot through leaves and fine branches at a critter a few inches behind them (the head and tail were sticking out) and nothing happened. I got a shot at the same critter the following weekend the same way and again nothing happened but the follow up shot got him. It had healing skin injuries from the first shot and fresh skin injuries from the second. There were leaf and bark fragments embedded in the skin - no bullet fragments. Calibre was 223 at around 3100 fps. That's an extreme at the top end.

[leftiye]

Finally a thread about something with some theoretical substance! Flat nosed boo/ullets deflect less than spire points. Wadcutters would be betterer still. Round noses probly aren't too bad. The more inertia the boolit has (a combination of velocity and mass), the harder it is to deflect. But as the 50 caliber BMG test showed, they still deflect. The worst scenario is the small caliber boo/ullet at high velocities. They don't deflect, they disintegrate. Don't ask me. Fine brush will evaporate them. For most heavier, more solid boo/ullets, fine brush isn't too bad, but shooting 50 yards through continuous brush is dreaming.

I saw a study where they purposefully clipped a branch with each shot with multiple paper walls (sheets) behind the point of impact with the branch. The bullets traveled in a spiral around a cone aroundthe line of aim that continued to expand after hitting the small branch. They opined that the bullet was "footballing", and that air resistance was causing it to plane in the spiral pattern.

[FergusonTO35]

Wow, thanks for the wealth of information and experience. I should add that I'm talking about shooting a deer that is standing in or immediately behind a patch of fine brush, not standing 20 feet behind it nor is there a continuous sea of brush between me and the deer.

[winelover]

This is not an endorsement for reckless hunting practices. However, you don't know if you don't try. My first cast kill was with a 44 Redhawk. Boolet was the RCBS 240 SWCGC. Deer was 20 yards away. Fog just lifted. Boolet took out two, one-inch saplings, before contacting the animal. Deer piled up 65 yards later. Just use good judgement, before squeezing the trigger.

Winelover

[44man]

All good answers. I hunt with revolvers and I shoot a lot of deer with brush around. I wait for a hole to shoot through, last deer I did that with was my first this season, had a 6" opening at the shoulder, I hit perfect. A tiny twig when close to the deer doesn't bother me.
Many times I see an opening in front of the deer and aim into it and have hit deer on a full run in thick brush by shooting as the deer enters the side of my red dot.
Find an opening. I find the big, heavy revolver boolit is not affected much anyway. Never had one turn by a small twig but I would not shoot through a lot of them.
Another case for accuracy, even a 3" hole at 50 yards can let me slip a boolit through.

[Digital Dan]

No, bullets don't get thru brush very well. A 2.75" FFAR w/HEAT warhead does pretty well though.

[OnHoPr]

If your boolit is somewhat stout (WW like) and the brush is small and the deer is not to far behind the brush, take that 45-70 and harvest the deer and fill the freezer.

[white eagle]

This is not an endorsement for reckless hunting practices. However, you don't know if you don't try. My first cast kill was with a 44 Redhawk. Boolet was the RCBS 240 SWCGC. Deer was 20 yards away. Fog just lifted. Boolet took out two, one-inch saplings, before contacting the animal. Deer piled up 65 yards later. Just use good judgement, before squeezing the trigger.

Winelover

that pretty much sums it up
I have seen a 300 win mag ricochet off of trees like a pin ball
and have seen bullets disintegrate
like the man says use good judgement and you will succeed

[HNSB]

If your boolit is somewhat stout (WW like) and the brush is small and the deer is not to far behind the brush, take that 45-70 and harvest the deer and fill the freezer.

+1 to this.

[Junior1942]

With a 270 and 130 gr bullet, I once shot a doe standing in brush at circa 20 yards. All I could see was her head and neck. I estimated where her chest was. She was DRT. Yes, I could have shot her in the neck, but I didn't think that fast.

[FergusonTO35]

Going hunting in the mountains this weekend. Hopefully I'll get a chance to try out my "brush sense"!

[whelenshooter]

Hunting in a pine plantation in Mississippi once. About sunset I'm at the end of the pines looking over an oak flat. Deer blows behind me. I turned there was a doe standing in the same lane I was in at about 30 yards. Sure meat! She was standing mostly head on, so small profile, but short shot, easy hit. I fired the 308 with a 150 grain jacketed bullet spire point. She just stood there and looked at me. I bolted the gun, by that time she had moved into a different lane and I never saw her again. What the heck? Between me and her at about 15 yards was a hardwood sapling that was about the size of my pinky finger that I never saw, the bullet took the side out of it and then the bullet never saw her. It would have been good shot placement had the sapling not "helped me".

David

[starmac]

My idea of a brush gun is short and handy to carry through the brush, not for shooting through it. My idea of big and slow for a brush gun is they make a big hole that makes for for better tracking if you have too, again not for shooting through brush. If a dear was a few inches behind the brush, I might pull the trigger, more than a couple of feet, well there will always be another shot.

[44man]

My idea of a brush gun is short and handy to carry through the brush, not for shooting through it. My idea of big and slow for a brush gun is they make a big hole that makes for for better tracking if you have too, again not for shooting through brush. If a dear was a few inches behind the brush, I might pull the trigger, more than a couple of feet, well there will always be another shot.
My feelings too. Deer walk if conditions are not right.

[badbob454]

Wow, thanks for the wealth of information and experience. I should add that I'm talking about shooting a deer that is standing in or immediately behind a patch of fine brush, not standing 20 feet behind it nor is there a continuous sea of brush between me and the deer.

with this in mind... shoot at least a 150 gr boolit and it should do the job. my favorite is a 173 gr flat nose like the 311041. or the saeco clone N.O.E. has made in the 314-175... i have loaded ammo for a guy who shot a pig 2 times with a 300 weatherby and a 125 gr. bullet jword. these exploded and did not penetrate more than 1/2 an inch as they just flew apart upon impact , heavier and slower boolits brought the pig down and were able to push through the tough sholder . like brush a bullet can explode or fly apart while hitting a branch at hyper velocitys, so get a heavy boolit medium speed 2000-2200 fps and shoot only through brush within 2-3 feet before the intended target ... my 2c worth

[badbob454]

Hunting in a pine plantation in Mississippi once. About sunset I'm at the end of the pines looking over an oak flat. Deer blows behind me. I turned there was a doe standing in the same lane I was in at about 30 yards. Sure meat! She was standing mostly head on, so small profile, but short shot, easy hit. I fired the 308 with a 150 grain jacketed bullet spire point. She just stood there and looked at me. I bolted the gun, by that time she had moved into a different lane and I never saw her again. What the heck? Between me and her at about 15 yards was a hardwood sapling that was about the size of my pinky finger that I never saw, the bullet took the side out of it and then the bullet never saw her. It would have been good shot placement had the sapling not "helped me".

David
should a used the 35 whelenshooter , it probably would have had the mass to push through...

[nekshot]

I learned the hard way many years ago with a 30-06 and 180 hornady bullet. I shot a deer walking behind a bush and I tried shoving bullet thru. It was a long tracking in snow but all that was in the deer was a third of the copper jacket in the lung, with out snow I would have lost that deer. Now if the going is thick I use the 444 with 310 lee and smile when it roars. I don't consider any thing we can comfortably carry as a brush buster but this one comes close. Ask my buck from last year. I shoved the slug thru brush and it split in 2 and one piece took out the lungs the other turned up and went up thru the neck. Looked like I shot it twice. Plenty of lead in one slug goes along way if divided!

[Suo Gan]

There have been several extensive studies done on this. Te best was by Francis Sell in art of successful deer hunting. It seems to me he found the greater sectional density the better. And a velocity of about 2300 fps.

I distinctly remember him saying that 45-70 was one of the worst performers and they "went wailing like banshees through the forest". When shooting through light screening.

3006 35 rem, 6,5 swede, 358 win, 270, 150 grain, were some of the best. Seems like he said that the 30-30 did alright.

Test it out. Put some targets up behind some brush at various distances and see what you find.

Some calibers performed much better overall than others. I have shot deer through brush and they died. I shot one I thought in the neck and the bullet was deflected.

This can be sketchy. I think it is one of those areas where someone is an expert until it happens to them.

[Geppetto]

My wife shot a nice whitetail buck last year with her .260 rem Model 7. Shooting factory rem core-loks, It was a generally clear shot, but she must have hit a popple sapling because the deer didn't react too much. She shot it again and dropped it on shot two.

Upon skinning the dear I found jacket fragments embedded in the front shoulder below the skin but above the meat, well away from the second shot. Seems that the bullet must have come apart hitting some brush on the way through. A boolit or better J bullet may have performed better, who knows

[d garfield]

Shot gun and double oo buck,and go for it.

[CastingFool]

Shot gun and double oo buck,and go for it.

I beg to differ. I live in a shotgun only zone, and have close to 39 yrs hunting deer with a shotgun, slugs is the way to go. Buckshot has an effective range of only about 40 yds, and you better have a full choke on your barrel. Even with slugs, which I don't claim to be better at going through brush, I would rather pick my shots instead of taking a chance on only wounding a deer, or worse, lose it. JMO

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well, this is my experience from a year ago.

Shooting a 45/70 with a 465gr WFN cast at 1650fps.

Laying on a hill side waiting for a critter to come in.

One did, close likely under 100yds.

I'm on my belly, rifle rested over my fanny pack, perfect behind the shoulder hold, squeeze off the shot and watch the deer run away.

No blood, no sign of a hit.

Between me and the deer was a light screen of field grass, probably 5 - 10 feet in front of me.

So light I was watching the deer through the grass and sighting with the scope through that light screen.

There have been enough tests done all with at best iffy results, and enough experiences related here to clearly show that you should not take the chance, no matter what the firearm.

No ethical hunter would on purpose take a shot knowing there is a possibility of wounding an game animal.

Never would I have thought that such a light screen of grass would do what it did, but even with grass, I know better now.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Suo Gan]

Crusty I killed many deer shooting through brush. I lost one, don't believe I even scratched it either. It was an easy forty yard shot and he was standing slightly uphill behind a real light screen of brush. His body was obscured, but his neck was mostly clear. I shot and he ran off with the herd seemingly unhurt. I just knew I hit that deer I trailed them for half an hour and gave up. When back to the scene with my partner and tried to piece it together. He was about three feet opposite on the far side of the bush relative to me. We found where my 25 caliber bullet had indeed cut a small twig about twice the size of a pencil lead and some leaves.

Nary a drop of blood.

I have held off since then. Since I am about fifty pounds overweight, I guess I don't need them as much as a starving man would. So I demoted myself from expert to student once again.

In a pinch I sure would shoot through brush to collect some meat. Probably eat rats and garbage too.

Funny how life does that to a guy. It is a good thing too. I like being humbled. It happens all to often.

I would bet that Francis was right. But I have not done his test. It is a pretty good book too.

[L Ross]

I did a fairly serious test of round ball from 50, 54. and 58 caliber rifles, and 28, 20, 16, and 12 bore smoothbore trade guns and muskets. Even targets only 18" behind a substantial screen of live hazelnut brush were often completely missed. It convinced me that no shot through brush was ethical with a traditional muzzle loader.
It was a pain to continue the test through all of the various combinations because it was obvious right from the start that round balls were radically deflected.
Duke

[rking22]

Inadvertantly did a test Wed afternoon. Deer came up behind me , close REAL close. She didn't wind me so just gave me about a 20 yard berth. Problem was she was to my right and I am rt handed. Head goes behind a tree the flintgun gets flipped over so I can shoot left handed. Next tree mount the gun and hunt up the sights , deer comes out and stops at about 20 yards broud side. Sights locked on her shoulder and pressed the trigger. Deer trots off about 30 yards and looks at me ! How did that happen ? after the smoke cleared I saw that I had splintered a sappling about the size of your thumb 10 feet short of the deer. .490 PBR hit left side and deflected. It actually hit about 6 inches left of my hold and hit her in the throat. Another inch of deflection and it would have missed ,a half inch rt on my hold and the ball would have hit the sappling on the rt side and been in her gut! As it was there was no sign of a hit until 25 yards down the trail and she went 300 yards in the dark. 9 Pm the meat was in the ice but that possibility of he gut shot just gives me the creeps. I never saw the sappling ,was so focused on the deer I looked right thru it! Just not worth the risk to me. It happens enough even when we think it's a clear shot. Put up some targets at various distances behind the brush and see how your gun performs, 10 to 20 shots to get a good feel! Only you can decide , so get some pertainate data to help with your decision.

[FergusonTO35]

I'm reading every bit of this and soaking it up. I'm hunting on my aunt's farm in Elliott county tomorrow, very hilly and lotsa brush. I'll be taking my trusty Glenfield 30, loaded with 150 grain Sierra Pro Hunters at 2000 fps or so. Very accurate so I should be able to pencil one through the twigs. I can see how grass would totally foul up a shot. It tends to be more dense and doesn't break cleanly like brush does. If I decide to take a brush shot it would have to be "transparent" brush, not completely opaque.

[725]

Deflections are real, so that's a minus. More importantly to me is a clear line of sight and knowing #1 - the target, and #2 - what's around it and behind it. Obstructed views are a big deal for me. Safety first.

[M-Tecs]

If I can see it I don’t try to shoot through it. I did some testing in the 70’s. A 1/8” twig will deflect your 150 grain Sierra Pro Hunters significantly.

Early on I tried shooting through brush. It didn’t work well so I did testing and was amazed at how little it takes to do major deflections on bullets. To date I have killed 160 plus deer with a rifle and 30 plus with a bow. I have lost one with the rifle and one with the bow and that is two to many for me so I only will shoot when I have a clear shooting lane.

[FergusonTO35]

I am planning to do some testing of boolits in brush in the off season. With that particular rifle if there is an opening for a shot I can find it.

[Duckiller]

Any brush will cause a bullet to deflect. Best way to shoot through brush is with a scope. Doesn't need to be real powerful. 2X to 4X works fine. The scope lets you find a small hole where there is no brush. Tired old eyes with scopes see much better than young eyes with iron sights.

[jhalcott]

I shot at a doe standing about 45 yards from me, but with a lot of brush between us. I saw the 6mm bullet clipping twigs and stuff and the doe standing still. The bullet completely missed that deer! I decided to test the deflection "theory" for my self. I made a "peg board" for 1/4 and 3/8" hardwood dowels. Cut them to about 6" long and stood them in the board. Being an intelligent sort, I placed the board at 10 feet from the target and shot it with various caliber guns and bullet weights. The 45-70 /300, 405 and 500 grain slugs at both high and low velocity DID deflect LESS than 6mm 85,90 and 100 grainers. BUT not much, if you only counted the slugs that made it THRU the pegs. The farther from the pegs to the target the more deflection you get. The 30 calibers with both cast and Jacketed did no better. The pegs were set up so ANY projectile HAD to hit 3 or more pegs to get thru to the target side. The BEST results were when the target was AGAINST the back of the board. Even in a survival situation, I'd think twice before taking a shot thru brush. I might take a neck shot though, IF it was clear!

[Mk42gunner]

One time my buddy and I had just gotten through the gate onto some CRP ground, when a decent buck jumped up about fifty yards away. When I shot he was about 65 yards, no sign of a hit. Buddy dropped him shortly thereafter. I was shooting a 6.5-06 with a 140 grain Hornady in front of a fairly hefty charge of RL-22.

Neither one of us could see any reason for me to have missed the deer, we had just checked the zero of our guns that morning. It got to bugging me that night how I missed him, so I went back the next day and found what I actually hit-- a sumac sprout that was almost 3/8" in diameter roughly halfway to the deer. Right where the main "trunk" split into three branches was a 6.5mm hole.

To this day I have no idea where that bullet went after it hit the sprout.

Robert

[winelover]

For a cast boolet thread, I'm surprised at the number of responses, citing j-words. I expected most of you to be hunting with boolets! Pointy bullets and high velocity doesn't mix, when it comes to brush!! Use flat points and large calibers, at moderate velocities, in thickets.

Winelover

[randy_68]

I always look for a hole or wait for the deer to move into a better position. I lost a giant one time when I tried the "shoot thru brush" tactic. It didn't work. I was using a shotgun with the big cast 1oz slugs and the deer was maybe 20' behind the wall of brush with only his head and legs showing facing me. I figured I could send the slug thru there and hit him square in the chest. No such luck. I found where it hit a branch about 3/4" thick and took a notch out of it deflecting it down. My nephew saw the same deer a few weeks later but never had a shot at him. That was 25 years ago and now I either pass them up or wait for a better opportunity. I've still lost a couple with what I thought were great shots on calm deer but never found them. I don't take chances anymore.

[owejia]

Years ago while muzzleloading hunting, took a shot at a buck probably 30 yds. Smoke cleared and the buck was still standing there looking at me. Started to reload and he took off, wondering how I missed couldn't find any blood, went back where I had shot from and retraced my steps and found I had hit a small 1/2 " bush. Using open sights just couldn't see the bush. Quit hunting with the muzzleloader after that.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yep Winelover, use cast boolits and still be prepared for an almost sure miss. Go back and read post #28. ------ Way more bad/negative experiences in this thread then those who "lucked" a shot through the brush or grass.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[longbow]

Ross Seyfreid and Mike Venturino both wrote articles about shooting through brush many years ago. I may still have both old magazines around.

Ross used brush piles and Mike used a board drilled with dowels standing up. In both cases it was demonstrated that bullet path for typical pointed hunting bullets was dramatically affected.

As already mentioned, RN, RNFP and SWC shapes seemed somewhat less affected and especially the larger bore like .45-70.

If the target was close (say 5') behind the brush the bullets did not have time to "wander" and hits weren't too far off but if the target was well behind the brush groups were measured in feet.

Ross also wrote about shotgun slugs shot through brush (can't recall if it was the same article) and the round balls or hard, square shouldered Brenneke style slugs turned in a pretty good performance with minimal deflection... not no deflection, just less.

My opinion ~ if the range is short and the animal is in light brush with open shot most of the way and short distance of just a few feet between brush and animal, the .45-70 with RN, RNFP, LFN, or similar shapes will do the job. I would not trust a pointed soft point jacketed bullet at all.

Just my opinion.

Longbow

[357maximum]

Shot gun and double oo buck,and go for it.


That statement is just plain irresponsible and wrong(my opinion and I am free to express it). Seems like every year I either finish the job or find a rotting corpse or two from someone who thought the same exact thing as your statement. Buckshot has no purpose in the deer woods regardless of how our idiotic lawmakers think. I'll take a single projectile that I KNOW where it is going over 9 or 12 questionable riddles each and everytime thank you very much. I have given buckshot a fair shake out in several good patterning guns over the years...I just do not trust it for deer hunting and alot of hunters trust it faaaaaaarrrrrrr tooooooo much.

[btroj]

No absolutes for me. Each situation is unique. Gun and bullet, range, type of brush, space from brush to muzzle and from brush to deer. Way too many variables to say always or never.

I will say that when you pull the trigger you own the results. When things go sour learn from it.

[Win94ae]

Never shoot through thick brush, your shooting partner may be what is behind it... now that, that is out of the way.


When I was shooting my 30-06 with Sierra 180gr SPs, at 600 yards. There were tree branches at 300 yards that I thought I was shooting over. To make a long story short, I hit branches 3 times, two of the times it resulted in about a 10 inch deviation; one of the times I don't know where it impacted, so it might have been a pretty great deflection.

Then there is this.
The Box O' Truth #40 - Deflected Bullets and the Box O' Truth (http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot40.htm)

[Boyscout]

I tree stand hunt a lot so I always have some shooting lanes cut for a couple of anticipated approaches. I have passed a lot of shots at first and last light because I would think any bullet could blow up hitting a small branch. I am always studing my surroundings for holes to shoot through; it helps.

[BruceB]

Colonel Charles Askins also did a 'brush-shooting test' MANY years ago.

On interpreting his results, he basically said that, on the day you decide to shoot through the brush, he hoped that was the day you brought the .458 with 500-grain round-noses. There was that much obvious difference from the smaller-bores.


....and some people still wonder why so many of us LIKE the large bores and heavy bullets!

Of course, the internal strength to REFUSE THE SHOT in iffy conditions is the most important attribute of all.

[M-Tecs]

It’s been a long time since I did my testing (mid 70’s) but my results did not reflect the same results as the box of truth . I observed way more deflection than their test showed.

Also providing the bullet didn’t blow up the long high section density bullets out of a fast twist deflected the least in my tests. The worst were the short blunt bullets out of a slow twist rifle. The 6.5 Swede with 140 round nose defected significantly less than the 405 grain 45/70. I tested .243, 6.5 Swede, 270, 30-30, 30-06, 444, 45/70 and 50 cal. round ball.

After these tests I concluded that none of the bullet made it thought the brush worth at hoot. My solution was to upgrade my optic so I could see any twigs and pick my shots. That method has worked very well for me for the past 40 years.

[303Guy]

I'm of the opinion that the the higher the momentum and the lower the energy the less the deflection will be. A well stabilized bullet/boolit is a must though. The 6.5 Swede fits the bill. 220 gr 30 cal's with a fast twist also fits the bill.

It's about two forces; momentum which tries to keep the boolit moving in a straight line and energy of impact which tries to deflect the boolit. The higher the velocity the greater the magnitude of the impact energy. Also, the higher the velocity the higher the momentum but, energy is a square of the velocity, it's best to gain momentum with a heavier boolit. Boolit diameter is important too, with the larger diameter having a greater destabilizing effect if it makes a glancing impact. Then again will the same large diameter boolit feel a blade of grass as much as a faster and lighter boolit would?

[whelenshooter]

But I didn't own one then!!!


should a used the 35 whelenshooter , it probably would have had the mass to push through...

[wolfe28]

Good Afternoon;

I didn't read all of the posts, but I think the following video answers a lot of the OP's questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2_7OPdbQEM

D

[GabbyM]

For a cast boolet thread, I'm surprised at the number of responses, citing j-words. I expected most of you to be hunting with boolets! Pointy bullets and high velocity doesn't mix, when it comes to brush!! Use flat points and large calibers, at moderate velocities, in thickets.

Winelover

I live in Illinois where we are not allowed by Chicago politicians to hunt without paying there protection money nor following there rules. Which say we can't use a rifle to hunt. Now you figure that out then get back to me with a rational answer.

So I used 12 gage shotgun and 45 caliber muzzle loader. Both very poor brush busters. Simple sad situation all around. I should of bought a 54 caliber round ball gun. But I didn't know better back in 1971.

Slow bullets are not good brush busters in any weight. fast bullets are and the heavier the better. 30 caliber 220 grain at around 2300 fps as in a 220 grain RN from a 30-06 is close to the top of the line. IMHO:::: Rounds like the 35 Whelan and 375 H&H magnum are supper penetrate anything including brush. Super high velocity blows bullets up on impact with anything larger than a blade of grass. To slow and bullets deflect easily like a bb gun. Biggest rifle I personally own is a 30-06. Heaviest cast boolit I have is a 200 grain flat nose. WE don't have brown bears in Illinois. However a 220 grain cast bullet running around 2200 fps is going to bust through enough brush for any prudent hunter. 1950 fps is a more easy load. Most anything that shoots with a 170 grain or heavier from a 30-30 is a good brush gun. Like that's a surprise. But if you want to seriously have a brush gun. Use a 45 caliber 420 grain cast bullet from an alloy of 4% tin 5% Sb with a touch of copper air cooled running around 1,900 fps. This would be a modern 45-70 or 458 SOCOM . 458 win mag or whatever. That load will penetrate a four foot pine tree. That's not to say a half inch twig won't send it off into Netherlands.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Hmmmmmmmm? GabbyM,

I guess I'd need to see that proven in a number of good tests, as every test I've seen on the subject pretty well proves the point that at least in shoulder arms, there simply is no such thing as a brush gun. I guess my experience, spoken of a number of post back, with a 465gr WFN cast at 1650fps and it's failure to hit anywhere in a deer sized critter at about 100yds with ONLY a light screen of field grass between the muzzle and the critter, is good enough to prove the point for me. ------ I simply will not go there again. ---- Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[GabbyM]

Hmmmmmmmm? GabbyM,

I guess I'd need to see that proven in a number of good tests, as every test I've seen on the subject pretty well proves the point that at least in shoulder arms, there simply is no such thing as a brush gun. I guess my experience, spoken of a number of post back, with a 465gr WFN cast at 1650fps and it's failure to hit anywhere in a deer sized critter at about 100yds with ONLY a light screen of field grass between the muzzle and the critter, is good enough to prove the point for me. ------ I simply will not go there again. ---- Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

I agree with you Crusty. Read the last sentence of my last post.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Ahaaaaa, Got ya Gabby!

CDOC

[RMc]

That statement is just plain irresponsible and wrong(my opinion and I am free to express it). Seems like every year I either finish the job or find a rotting corpse or two from someone who thought the same exact thing as your statement. Buckshot has no purpose in the deer woods regardless of how our idiotic lawmakers think. I'll take a single projectile that I KNOW where it is going over 9 or 12 questionable riddles each and everytime thank you very much. I have given buckshot a fair shake out in several good patterning guns over the years...I just do not trust it for deer hunting and alot of hunters trust it faaaaaaarrrrrrr tooooooo much.

I hail from the coastal Southeast. Since we have no snow or long periods of sub-freezing weather to kill off the underbrush, the only places one can shoot deer and hog without dealing with brush are in man-made clearings, agricultural or otherwise.
Yes, today many hunters use elevated stands and planted areas to hunt deer as have I. Yet, simply put, otherwise you have to deal with true close range brush hunting and moving game. Shooting under these conditions is not much different than rabbit hunting. Especially when hog hunting.

Yes, I have used and still use buckshot. Conventional small pellet buckshot like #1B and 00B will put deer down decisively under these conditions. With the explosion of wild hog populations I have moved to much larger buckshot to deal with the needed penetration issues with large hogs. Three tight patterning, hard cast 22 gauge buckshot pellets, (320 grain .60 caliber), from a well choked 12 bore are indeed very decisive in putting large hogs down in our coastal swamplands.

Certainly you should use the Gun/Ammunition/Sighting system that has earned your trust under your hunting conditions. However, the wholesale condemnation of the hunting tool choices of other hunters, is uncalled for.

[Victor N TN]

My most favorite rifle for shooting almost anything is a Rem 700 Custom Varmint Special chambered in 25-06. When I first got it I had a 3X9 Weaver steel tube on it from JC Penny. I had just started handloading. My favorite load for crows and groundhogs was topped with a Sierra 90 grain HPBT, reving about 2950 fps. After MANY crows and groundhogs, I was on another mans farm with him. We were spotting for each other. We saw a big crow lite in the top of a tree. It was my turn to go first. I got down prone and used my jacket to lift up the sand bag enough to get to the crow. I fired... The bird just sat there. Looking through my scope I saw something that looked like a spiderweb. We investigated further and saw a perfect bullet hole through an Oak leaf of the tree we were laying under.

I lost 1 deer to that load. When I discovered Nosler Partition Bullets, I never lost another animal.

Sorry I'm not exactly on topic. But ANY bullet can be made to go off predicted track when it hits obstacles of varying density and thicknesses.

[Victor N TN]

To ad to the above post, I have ordered a mold to start making 30 cal 180 grain cast bullets. Eventually I'll try to post a range report.

[Oldtimer45]

Would be easy to set up a test. Put a target in the brush and shoot at it. You will know what you boolet will do some of the time but not all of the time.

[jhalcott]

Seems that MOST of these "tests" were only one shot affairs. I shot a total of FIVE shots at each test and averaged MY results.The bottom line though, is DON"T shoot thru brush!

[Beau Cassidy]

I remember reading one of the above mentioned articles years ago. The jist of the article is if you have to shoot thru brush use a flat point bullet as it had less of a chance of deflection.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Can't be much flatter then the 465gr Wide Flat Nose bullet that went astray as spoken of in a much earlier post under this topic.

Making it through any cover, grass or limbs is iffy at the very best, with any bullet.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[DougGuy]

Ross also wrote about shotgun slugs shot through brush (can't recall if it was the same article) and the round balls or hard, square shouldered Brenneke style slugs turned in a pretty good performance with minimal deflection... not no deflection, just less.

My opinion ~ if the range is short and the animal is in light brush with open shot most of the way and short distance of just a few feet between brush and animal, the .45-70 with RN, RNFP, LFN, or similar shapes will do the job. I would not trust a pointed soft point jacketed bullet at all.

Just my opinion.

Longbow

Agreed. The larger the frontal area, the less deflection from light brush. Heavy brush, wait, don't shoot.

I took a nice 9pt standing in medium leafy brush with a Foster slug in a rifled barrel, could only see it's head and neck, but the slug found it's mark exactly where I aimed. Took another one that a twig cut a deep groove across 1/3 of the slug, but it too found it's mark unhindered. Both these shots the brush was 2-3 feet at the most in front of the deer. Had the brush been halfway between us I doubt I would have pulled the trigger.

The 9pt, had the sun shining from behind the deer, I could see his silhouette and was sure there was no one behind him. The second one I was following through the brush with the scope and I was sure it was a safe shot then as well.

[300savage]

lots of good advice and experiance written here on this subject, so its hard to add anything of value except perhaps this;
following up a gut shot doe with a flashlight is one thing, but a bear, or a boar is something else.
so i just wonder if we would simply ask ourselves would i risk this shot at an unwounded animal that could rip me a new one , or kill me?
or what if it were a paid trophy hunt where the first drop of blood costs you $10.000 recovered or not ??
would we still be so casual with our shot choices? if not perhaps we should ask ourselves why?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

VERY WELL SAID, 300Savage!

In the experience I related earlier, there was no way I considered the light screen of grass to be a negative or deterrent.

But having been there and in a situation and distance that clearly pointed to only one possible reason for the miss, I'm a true believer in simply don't!!!!!!!

As I related, I was laying on the ground, the critter was about 100yds., I had a solid rest over my fanny pack and at the shot, watched the deer run quickly away.

This is totally out of character for critter hit with my 465gr Wide Flat Nose bullet from my 45/70.

No blood, no critter, GONE when it should have dropped at the shot.

It might be possible that the critter would run. Very unusual, but maybe possible. But had it run, it wouldn't have been far and it would have been leaking huge amounts of fluids and/or body parts from both sides of it's body at every step!

For those proponents of using heavy bullets with flat noses, just how much heavier and flatter do you want?

No, You simply cannot RELYABLY shoot even through a light screen of grass and anyone saying it is good or possible to shoot through grass or twigs/limbs should confine their hunting to paper.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Del-Ray]

While it didn't involve flat tipped bullets on the video "Deadly Weapons" they shot various calibers through a brush screen. ALL of them tumbled.

Even a 50 BMG shot through the brush keyholed on the target.

Take it as you will, but I don't shoot through brush.

[300savage]

i have to admit i have, quite a few times but i dont ever recall it being at an unwounded animal.
unless we want to count jackrabbits ,in which case i am guilty as anyone.
although the distance between twigs and hair was usually measured in inches and 90% or more of the time it resulted in a dead jack.
i recently related a tale about dropping a wounded bear that i was following up with a spine shot, now that this subject has been brought up i do recall some small twigged brush in the way.
i took the shot anyway, why? well first of all i didnt have much choice, i was way too close to a wounded bear who had made his final stand so i could not be too darn particular.
something needed to happen and soon, plus the light brush covering my target area was again merely inches from his hide.
i felt any deflection in that short a distance would be minor, plus the bullet construction , weight and mid level speed made me confident it would hang together if i hit a small obstruction.
never will know if i did or not, kinda got distracted after he dropped and forgot to look.
but frankly i didnt give a dam, i was just glad when my freekn knees stopped shakin like a little girls.

[MNgunhead]

I missed a nice fat doe at 20 yards last year because the bullet from my slug gun cut two small saplings on the way to the deer. I put the crosshairs dead middle of the boiler room behind the shoulder and squeezed off the shot. In my mind, all that was left was the gutting and draggin. Both sapplings were destroyed, but the doe trotted off without a scratch on her. Luckiest damn doe to ever get that close to me. I've never had something like that happen before, but I now know that brush can ruin a good day. In the end I laugh at it. I never shoot through brush intentionally, but in the heat of battle, I never even saw the two sapplings that thwarted my shot. No bullet is immune to brush. Keep your shots clean if possible.