Official name for .35 cal Mauser?

[NYBushBro]

I have a bunch of Mauser barreled actions (not exactly collectable) and have thought of doing a 'Whelen' type rebore on at least one of them, but using the original size brass cases.

I do realize that there was a 9x57mm, but wasn't the groove size .356"?

I'd prefer to use the 35 cal molds I have accumulated (including Lyman 3589) but am concerned that there are no reasonably priced reloading dies for .358" groove diameter.

One reason I'd like to do this is that I have a cellar load of '06 brass to form 8mm/9mm cases from, and the 35 cal molds (and I have collected quite a few...). This project would use primarily cast bullets (but the option of using 180,200,220,250 gr j-bullets is an option as well.)

Sort of like a European .358 Win... or a streamlined 9.3x57, with 8mm/9mm case dimensions (which might have a bit more shoulder than the 9.3x57 shooters have to work with).

Any help on the logistics would be appreciated.

[Bushrat]

9X56 and 9X57 bores varied a bunch I had one that was .354. It would make or sense to chamber for the 358 Win or 35 Whelen. Both are great and can accept stout loads that go with 98 Mausers. The 9x57 would be great and could be handloaded to modern pressures if the action are checked out by a gunsmith. I would vote for the 358 Win with a long throat

[blpenn66502]

CH4D lists 9x57 (and improved) 2 die sets for $80 and indicate they are designed for .357 bullet (std 35 cal pistol dia) with a .355 expander ball. Don't see how sizing down slightly or getting a larger dia expander ball to use .358 sized bullets would force you into something much more custom.

[Outpost75]

I had a Mauser 9x57 which actually slugged. 357, so you are OK. If you already have 8mm brass, it necks to. 357 easily. Ditto for. 30-'06 to. 35 Whelen. If availability of factory liads is important, the Whelen is abetter choice than. 358 Win. A .35 Remington on a Mauser makes a nics Easren woods rig and I wouldn't ignore that possibility.

But for a full powered hunting rifle for any game in North America, a .35 Whelen with a 12" twist will so it all.

[9.3X62AL]

Back in 2002 when I opted for the 9.3 x 62 over the 35 Whelen, the primary determinant was the greater availability of mass-produced good-quality rifles in the Euro caliber. The 9.3 can wring a little more power out of the componentry than can the 35 Whelen, but not enough to make a practical difference in the field/on game. Most stock Whelens come with a "default" 1-16" twist rate, and this might limit the shooter's use of heavier-for-caliber bullets--if so inclined. 1-14" might be better, but I would run the numbers using Greenhill and suit your needs from those results.

ETA--Outpost 75's summary including a 1-12" twist says it all, really.

[Larry Gibson]

Since neither of the German cartridges are readily available I suggest you consider a 35x57.

Simply made by shortening a 35 Whelen FL die so the shoulder on an 8x57 is set back to Whelen neck length. A NS die and Seating die can then be shortened the same amount. 35 Whelen dies are readily available and are priced as regular dies. I prefer RCBS dies for this. The rifle can then be rebored or rebarreled to standard .358 caliber (suggest a 16" twist) and a standard 35 Whelen reamer can be used to short chamber the barrel so the bolt headspaces on the newly formed cartridges. Cases can be easily formed from 8x57 or from '06 cases. Basically the same cartridge as the 9.3x57 ballistically. As we see the dies and reamers are readily available with no great expense for custom dies or a custom reamer.

Additionally the 35x57 will fit the magazine perfectly as to oal and case taper. No alteration of the rails will be needed for 100% reliable feeding.

Larry Gibson

[sthwestvictoria]

I have a Mauser 98 that has been re-bored to 35 whelen. This was quite popular apparently here in Victoria in the 1980's, particularly by a gun smith Peter Davern. The goal was to convert the then common Mauser to a calibre for our big Sambar deer. It has the original barrel and sights and has not been shortened.
87410
It shoots beautifully, the stock has a bit too much drop for my liking, may get fixed at some stage. It now has lower rings which negates using the flip/flop military safety. This rifle chambers spire point jacketed easily however 250grain cast only loads as a single round from the magazine. The 200grain RCBS does load 4 from the magazine if they are seated short.

[NYBushBro]

Thanks to all for the input.

Larry: would the 16" twist be fast enough for Lyman 3589?
Most of the 35 Whelens that JES rebores appear to have a 14" twist. How does your RPM threshold see these twists doing in a 35 cal rifle (velocity-wise)?

Just wondering which twist would serve best for 200-250 bullets (either jacketed or cast), with an occasional load of the big Lyman bullet - if called upon for the task.

I'm guessing that 9x57 dies could be tweaked a bit with an expander ball to suit the purpose.

358 Win can do (approx) 200 gr @ 2500 fps, or 250 gr @ 2000 (jacketed vel.). I was looking to try to at least duplicate this (with cast) in an 8mm size case capacity the least complicated (and least expensive) way possible - ie: barrel re-bore and reloading dies, and little (or nothing) else.
(NOTE: my last name isn't Rockefeller.)

I'm not sure I would drive cast bullets this fast (ala Paco Kelly), but having that option would be a definite plus.

Would heat-treated Lyman#2 be able to handle the pressure needed to approach this goal (or should I be thinking more along the lines of a softer, more ductile alloy at moderate velocity)?

'Eastern woods gun' would be an accurate description - the largest game east of the Mississippi are the elk populations in PA (if you're lucky to draw a tag.)

A 35x57mm would sort of be 'between a .358 Win and a 35 Whelen'... which is what I was thinking of in the first place.

While this is still in the drawing board stage, the thought has interested me for a while.

[NYBushBro]

SW Victoria: thanks for the input.

One major reason I was thinking about retaining the x57 case size over either 35 Whelen or 8mm-06 is the OAL and feeding aspect... which you seem to have reinforced.

Those sambar are about elk (wapiti) sized, right?

[NYBushBro]

CH4D lists 9x57 (and improved) 2 die sets for $80 and indicate they are designed for .357 bullet (std 35 cal pistol dia) with a .355 expander ball. Don't see how sizing down slightly or getting a larger dia expander ball to use .358 sized bullets would force you into something much more custom.

I just noticed that word 'improved'... Hmmmm.

[Wayne Smith]

Humm, you said you have "Barreled actions". First thing I would do is start slugging barrels. You never mentioned buying a barrel, but if that is in the works my advice doesn't matter. The size of the barrel will determine if you can use your present molds.

Then decide on the caliber!

[ratitude]

Since neither of the German cartridges are readily available I suggest you consider a 35x57.

Simply made by shortening a 35 Whelen FL die so the shoulder on an 8x57 is set back to Whelen neck length. A NS die and Seating die can then be shortened the same amount. 35 Whelen dies are readily available and are priced as regular dies. I prefer RCBS dies for this. The rifle can then be rebored or rebarreled to standard .358 caliber (suggest a 16" twist) and a standard 35 Whelen reamer can be used to short chamber the barrel so the bolt headspaces on the newly formed cartridges. Cases can be easily formed from 8x57 or from '06 cases. Basically the same cartridge as the 9.3x57 ballistically. As we see the dies and reamers are readily available with no great expense for custom dies or a custom reamer.

Additionally the 35x57 will fit the magazine perfectly as to oal and case taper. No alteration of the rails will be needed for 100% reliable feeding.

Larry Gibson

After following the 30XCB thread this is exactly what I have been thinking of having goodsteel do for me on a spare Mauser action. I initially wanted a 358 Win but the 35x57 in Whelen form is very appealing.

[Larry Gibson]

NYBushBro

Larry: would the 16" twist be fast enough for Lyman 3589?

That is a pretty long bullet and I don't have the length to do the calculations. Anyone got the length of that bullet?

Most of the 35 Whelens that JES rebores appear to have a 14" twist. How does your RPM threshold see these twists doing in a 35 cal rifle (velocity-wise)?

With a 14" twist you will probably hold accuracy up into the 2500+ fps range.....2400+ fps for sure. Of course all depends on the quality of casting, loading, powders used etc. With 250 or + weight bullets that's probably all the recoil you might want. With 200 gr cast such as the RCBS 35-200-FN you could probably run into the RPM threshold at 2650 - 2725 fps with a well cast bullet of proper alloy and BHN.

Just wondering which twist would serve best for 200-250 bullets (either jacketed or cast), with an occasional load of the big Lyman bullet - if called upon for the task.

The 16" twist will handle most all cast bullets of 200 - 250 gr quite well except real pointy 250 gr custom bullets. Especially if you want to push them ala' Paco Kelly.

358 Win can do (approx) 200 gr @ 2500 fps, or 250 gr @ 2000 (jacketed vel.). I was looking to try to at least duplicate this (with cast) in an 8mm size case capacity the least complicated (and least expensive) way possible - ie: barrel re-bore and reloading dies, and little (or nothing) else.
(NOTE: my last name isn't Rockefeller.)

The cheapest way is with the 35x57. May be cheap in a $s context but it is an excellent cartridge.

I'm not sure I would drive cast bullets this fast (ala Paco Kelly), but having that option would be a definite plus.

Never know what you like until you try it!

Would heat-treated Lyman#2 be able to handle the pressure needed to approach this goal (or should I be thinking more along the lines of a softer, more ductile alloy at moderate velocity)?

HT'd #2 alloy will work as will WQ'd 80/20 lino/lead.

'Eastern woods gun' would be an accurate description - the largest game east of the Mississippi are the elk populations in PA (if you're lucky to draw a tag.)

The 35x57 with a 200 - 250 gr cast at 2400 - 2000 fps will kill elk all day long. The hard part will be drawing the tag and then finding an elk......

A 35x57mm would sort of be 'between a .358 Win and a 35 Whelen'... which is what I was thinking of in the first place.

The 35x57 is exactly in the middle just as you think......


Larry Gibson

[waksupi]

I have both 1-12, and 1-14 in .358 Win. Both shoot the Bator Heavy (358009 Improved) well, at 2100+.

[Larry Gibson]

Looks like this thread also answers the heavier cast bullet question.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?219761-Heavy-weight-boolits-in-1-14-twist-whelen

Larry Gibson

[NYBushBro]

Humm, you said you have "Barreled actions". First thing I would do is start slugging barrels. You never mentioned buying a barrel, but if that is in the works my advice doesn't matter. The size of the barrel will determine if you can use your present molds.

Then decide on the caliber!

I should have been more specific - K98k actions.... and a couple of KAR 98 (SR) actions with really crappy bores.

Thanks to all - this is why I like this site. The thought came to me recently when I was casting up some of the Saeco 250's (the mold number escapes me at the moment.) They look much more authoritative than the 200 gr 8mm bullets...

[JDBrowning]

Official name for .35 cal Mauser: When I bought my 9X57 a few years back, the dealer had some original Remington ammo probably made in the 1930's or 40's. The Boxes are marked 9mm Mauser and Mannlicher, 280 grains SP. On the bottom of the front of the box it states for:
Haenel-Mannlicher, Schoenauer Mannlicher, Sauer, Schilling-Mauser and others rifles. The cartridges are headstamped: Rem-Umc 9m/m. I bought 2 boxes and shot one box. Needless to say, only 7 rounds fired and 4 of them hang-fired. My 9x57 is a 98 small ring and shoots very well. My bore is .358 and the twist is about 1 in 9.5. I have the Redding dies. I use the NOE 358002, 280 gr at 1675 FPS and the Ranch Dog 190 Gr at 1400 FPS and both shoot better than I do. The rifle seems to have a sweet spot for J Bullets at around 2250 FPS to 2400 FPS. Hornady 250 gr at 2250fps will group under 1 1/2 in at 100 yd, 220 speer at 2300 fps group 1.3" at 100 yd. I can make them go faster but why when deer is my usual target when hunting. Hornady 200 gr is very accurate at 2350 fps with one deer to it's credit. My rifle is 7 lbs with scope and recoil is stiff with the heavy loads. I have shot loads approaching the 35 Whelen but I don't need that much power and recoil. Cast boolits is the way to go and I doubt there is any critter in the lower 48 that can stop the 358009 280gr at 1675fps. Good luck with your project.

[9.3X62AL]

FWIW.......the 9.3 x 62's "default" twist rate for many years has been 3 turns/meter, or about 1 turn in 13.1". This twist was optimized to service bullets weighing between 232 and 286 grains. My rifle will do 5-shot 1.25 MOA or better at 100 yards with Nosler 286 grain Partitions at 2400 FPS. Recoil is.......exhilarating, to borrow from Charles Askins. The CZ-550's bore form is a little unique--four-groove Mauser pattern (2/3 groove and 1/3 land), but quite tall lands--.007"! Bore/groove ratio is .352"/.366". Not much danger of boolit or bullet stripping, I'd say.

[NYBushBro]

I was examining 3 different cases: 7.62 NATO, 8mm, and 30-06; the 8mm has nearly identical neck length to a .308.

I'm guessing that 35 REM molds would work, but my SAECO 250 gr seems like it would fit a Whelen neck better.

[MBTcustom]

9mm Mauser Mannlicher (yeah, that's a lot of "M's" but a cartridge like this should make you say "hMMMM!"
I suggest 1-14 twist because it's easier to get a good cast boolit out of the barrel. If you plan on shooting the heavy jacketed bullets, or if you love to tinker, go 1-12.
If you're barreled actions are small ring, realize you will need to keep the pressures low. If you have a german 98, that would be the way to go.

I highly recommend that you send your straightest barrel to JES reboring and have him cut 3 groove rifling into it. For what you get back, $250 is a bargain, and his barrels shoot like a dream. I have even mused about buying a new barrel blank in 30 caliber and sending it off to him to be rebored I like his work that much. Your situation, for me, would be a no brainer.
Good luck!

[runfiverun]

that saeco mold is #248.
I use it in my 358 win pushed by 48-50 grs of RL-19.
even with it's smaller meplat the velocity makes the boolit work nicely on 4 legged things.