Best Guess on Mystery Powder

[762 shooter]

I got some reloading equipment from a deceased reloader's family member. Two MEC shotgun loaders, one 12 and one 20. Box containing one pound containers of powders including Red Dot, Blue Dot, Bullseye, and Unique. Two full MEC powder jars. One was Red Dot (easy to identify). The other one is my mystery powder. It is not Blue Dot Unique, or Bullseye.

The attached pic shows the relative size and density compared to Unique, Universal Clays, and Bullseye.

It is a very small flake silver powder with a few dark gray flakes mixed in. Flakes approx. 25% the size of Unique.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2d92wxj.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2u90t2t.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/1huwe8.jpg

The flash makes the darker flakes really stand out. To the naked eye the color difference is not that pronounced. A #29 bushing throws a charge of 23.2 grains of this powder.

I have a pound of this powder. I would like some best guesses so I might buy a pound to compare them and possibly feel comfortable about using my mystery powder.

Any ideas as to what powder it may be?

762

[Catshooter]

No idea.

I can't tell you what to do with it. There'll be plenty along shortly frantically telling to dump it in your garden.

I can tell you what I did. I came into about twenty pounds of mystery powder. I had a strong rifle in a caliber I was very familiar with, 94 Win in 45 Colt. Knowing that five grains of the fastest powder would be safe in that rifle, I started my testing there.

Over the course of testing I determined that I had 4831.

Worked for me. I don't know how much you understand interior ballistics and proper reloading practices. Your safety is up to you.

But in these trying times I'm willing to work a bit to keep a pound of what can be pretty tough to get. And there is another election cycle coming so I expect them to get harder to get all over again.

Your methods and results may vary. :)


Cat

[hithard]

IIRC this looks similar to 473, that was along time ago. I never cared much for it.

Looks more like fertilizer than anything else with out knowing for sure.

[rmatchell]

+1 on fertilizer. Unless you just need the powder it would be better to play it safe. I would say that the risk to gain a pound of powder osnt there,

[starmac]

I agree, it appears to be fertilizer.

[mikeym1a]

Since this guy was a shotgunner, and with the pics you provided, it looks a lot like the Alcan AL-5 shotgun powder that I have. It came in a group of stuff I bought which contained Reddot, 2400, and several cardboard cans of this AL-5. Some of the older manuals mention it as a load for .45acp. Don't remember which one, and some of my books are out in the car. Took them to work, in case things got really slow. Anyway, look up Alcan AL-5.

[762 shooter]

All the powders were in new containers. I doubt this is an ancient powder.

Thanks all for your concern. This is not my first rodeo. Powder is not evil. It is a compound. I treat it with the respect it deserves. Someone has some powder that looks like this and is probably a shotgun powder.

I'm not in a hurry. I can wait.

762

[Garyshome]

Expensive fertilizer? I would use it. Slowly!

[Artful]

Two full MEC powder jars. So this was used in shotgun reloading, Did you get the manuals, wads etc
it might give further clues - you could always load pistol treating it as fastest powder and working your way up the scale.

[waksupi]

you could always load pistol treating it as fastest powder and working your way up the scale.

Kinda my thought, too.

[AlaskanGuy]

Start small, work big, very carefully.

[jonp]

Kinda my thought, too.

Yeah, Blackhawks were made for this type of stuff. I agree with others. Since it was in a MEC and the guy was a shotgunner I'd start with the smallest charge of the fastest powder and go from there.

[762 shooter]

There was a 2011 Alliant powder manual, and 1991 Hercules manual in the box. Wads were WAA-20 and WAA-12. 2400 count Win 209 primers. Bushing 29 is in the 12 gauge MEC, no bushing in the 20. Now that I think of it, his wife died several years earlier and he may have been loading the twenty for her. Off to see if the Hercules manual has any thing underlined!

My next step while waiting for a picture of a like powder from a knowledgable soul, is to use the several MEC bushings to see what charges each throws with the mystery powder. A trip to the MEC chart should narrow the choices.

[762 shooter]

Nothing jumps out from the Hercules manual.

Could someone look at their Herco and see if visually it fits?

This will be used as powder. My Ruger testing equipment is always ready.:smile:

762

[Goatwhiskers]

My first thought was Herco. I can go out to the shop later today for a visual. GW

[rattletrap1970]

I was stripping apart some old .30-06 and out of all the shells, one was head stamped FA-29. It had yellow powder. I wanted to keep it in a little bottle, but I dropped it.

[Blammer]

mystery powder looks the same as fertilizer to me.

Is $20 really worth one of your fingers?

[farmerjim]

It is not Herco. I load most of my 9mm and 38 s with it.

[Swede44mag]

Is $20.00 of powder worth your hands & eyes least but not last whatever firearm you shoot it in?
Not to mention the hospital and rehabilitation bill in the thousands of dollars .
I have had mystery powder in the past best to use it for fertilizer as others have mentioned.

[dragonrider]

I have some AL-5 & 7, will copare you pic to them this evening.

[762 shooter]

Thank you all for your concern.

His inlaws kept his Speer Manual. He was meticulous about highlighting his loads in the Alliant manual so maybe he did the same in the Speer.

Thanks DragonRider

762

[dondiego]

It sure looks like a Winchester ball powder to me. 473 was mentioned and I have used many pounds of win. 452 while trap shooting. Win. 452 worked well in pistol loads too using Bullseye data.

[ofreen]

My money is on the OP and his guns making it through this unscathed.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well I see all the fertilizer posts popped up as predicted , I lean to the start as fastest and work up with that ruger test equipment .

[762 shooter]

It's definately NOT ball powder. It is a very small flake powder. Like Unique that has been cloroxed and dried on the high dryer setting.:lol:

Update: He also loaded 45Colt and 45 ACP. A retired Marine and self taught jazz pianist and piano tuner. I checked with the relatives and the only powders highlighted in the Speer manual were Bullseye and Unique for those calibers.

Also the MEC powder jar seemed to be used as a storage vessel rather than to reload shotshells. They found it stored with the other 1 pound containers of powder in the cabinet.

A quick perusal of the MEC bushing powder chart leads me to believe that this may not be a shotgun powder. No 29 bushing does not throw a 23.2 grain charge with any listed powder. Drats.

The plot thickens.

762

[762 shooter]

dondiego,

I just looked at the powder with a stronger magnifying glass and I think you may be right. It appears to be a flattened ball powder. It looks a lot like 231 but the particles are half the size of 231. It must be fast.
Anyone have a picture of Promo or Titewad?

762

[dondiego]

762 - I was just getting ready to post that some of the faster burning Winchester ball powders are flattened into flakes and are not actually balls so to speak. I guess, technically, a flattened ball is a flake.

[MtGun44]

Depends entirely on the quantity available. If it is at least a half pound, start by
treating it like Clays and shoot a "mild load" in a strong gun. Work your way up
and eventually you will have some loading data so you can enjoyably use it
for what it was intended.

Bill

[Bo1]

I have a container under my bench that I have clearly marked, that I put any powder in when I have dis-assembled rounds, or (i hate to admit it) forgotten which powder I had in the powder measurer. Might this be a possibility, since the powder was in an unmarked container? Number 1 rule in handloading is leave powder in originaly marked containers... Just a thought..

Bo

[KCSO]

Mystery powder if plant food only! If you don't know you don't guess. There is no pound or so of powder worth the price of bady parts.

[paul h]

While I can appreciate the sentiment that is $10-20 worth of powder worth risking your guns or your hands, that doesn't mean that you can't put the powder to use for something other than fertilizer. Several years back a co-worker was getting out of handloading so he gave me his left over powders, an assortment of shotgun and rifle powders. The nearly full can of 7828 had deteriorated by color and smell so it was used as fertilizer. But the 8# keg of Winchester WSF-8 had about a pound left so I figured if I could work up an accurate load for 38 wadcutters in my 357 blackhawk I'd be in business. Turns out I was able to find such a load and put the powder to use.

Pretty much any fast to medium burning rate shotgun powder will make a useful propellent for wadcutter loads in a strong .357. That would be how I'd use the powder.

[bdicki]

A quick perusal of the MEC bushing powder chart leads me to believe that this may not be a shotgun powder. No 29 bushing does not throw a 23.2 grain charge with any listed powder. Drats.

MEC bushing charts are very inaccurate, they always throw a lower weight than what's listed.

[762 shooter]

I have a container under my bench that I have clearly marked, that I put any powder in when I have dis-assembled rounds, or (i hate to admit it) forgotten which powder I had in the powder measurer. Might this be a possibility, since the powder was in an unmarked container? Number 1 rule in handloading is leave powder in originaly marked containers... Just a thought..

Bo

I thought about that but all the particles are of such consistent size I think that unlikely. From what I'm seeing it seems to be about pound of the same stuff.

762

[762 shooter]

A quick perusal of the MEC bushing powder chart leads me to believe that this may not be a shotgun powder. No 29 bushing does not throw a 23.2 grain charge with any listed powder. Drats.

MEC bushing charts are very inaccurate, they always throw a lower weight than what's listed.

I am going to try several different bushings and see what I come up with. Thanks for the info.

762

[762 shooter]

I found this on my quest. Very Interesting.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/150413-photographic-database-gunpowders-uruguay.html

762

[huntnman]

1+ on the above.I have had to take a round file and or sand paper to more than one bushing.

[762 shooter]

Depends entirely on the quantity available. If it is at least a half pound, start by
treating it like Clays and shoot a "mild load" in a strong gun. Work your way up
and eventually you will have some loading data so you can enjoyably use it
for what it was intended.

Bill

Yes Sir.

762

[s mac]

Don't know about Titewad, but have used Promo, mine were larger flakes, and all one color, dark grey.

[762 shooter]

Thanks s mac.

762

[dragonrider]

Ok I checked my Al-5 and 7 and it is nothing like them at all. Al-5 is a flat spherical, as far as I can tell, and it has white square markers in it. Al-7 has no markers but looks a lot like 5, perhaps darker in color. Incidentally the price on the can is $2.20. How I long for prices like that now.

[tuckerdog]

I've had a few mystery powders come my way, normally didn't use them for reloading but made some really cool arrows ;)

[762 shooter]

I've had a few mystery powders come my way, normally didn't use them for reloading but made some really cool arrows ;)

I'm interested. Please explain.

762

[rbuck351]

Sounds like it would be great for something like a 22H with a 40/45gr cast and 3 to 5 grs of mystery. 22lr replacement powder? Be pretty hard to hurt a hornet with 5grs of anything and a 40gr cast. 25/20, 32/20 or the like in a rifle would be hard to over pressure. Or maybe round ball in a 30/30. I can think of all kinds of uses other than throw it out without getting dangerous.

[Cmm_3940]

Loading bench sweepins? I keep mine in an old powder jar with the label scritched out rather than a MEC jar, though... :bigsmyl2: ....jk

[762 shooter]

I have looked carefully at a lot of different powders over the last few days. Extruded, spherical (ball or flattened), and flake. I have yet to find a powder that has these basic types mixed in a particular powder. Unique is all flake. 231 is all flattened ball. 4198 is all extruded. Your picture is clearly a combination of different shapes. Does anyone know of a powder that has mixed basic shapes?

Some of the French powder I have seen should be classified as chunk.:roll:

762

[evan price]

Don't know about Titewad, but have used Promo, mine were larger flakes, and all one color, dark grey.
Affirmative to that, Promo is a small diameter flake that is dark graphite grey like pencil lead cut into discs. I load a lot of PROMO.

The dark circles in the mystery powder look like PROMO.
The silvery flattened balls look like Titegroup.
I personally think it is a mixture of two powders. I can't think of one powder with two radically different style of granules mixed together.

If this were some third world country with no access to new powder it might be worth messing with less than a pound of powder.
Primers are not cheap. To get a load worked up to take advantage of this powder will take how many primers and projectiles and how much time?

I can tell from OP's replies that he's going to try to use it anyway, so go ahead and treat it like Bullseye or Nitro-100 in terms of load speed, load at listed starting data, and pick something like a 38 special to start out with that has a lot of leeway. I bet it works out fine in the end. Just more work than I want to bother with. (but then I am spoiled by having a large cache of powders that I bought before the stupid took over, and I just bought another fresh 8#er of PROMO a couple weeks ago for $90 on the shelf at the LGS)

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Affirmative to that, Promo is a small diameter flake that is dark graphite grey like pencil lead cut into discs. I load a lot of PROMO.

The dark circles in the mystery powder look like PROMO.
The silvery flattened balls look like Titegroup.
I personally think it is a mixture of two powders. I can't think of one powder with two radically different style of granules mixed together.

If this were some third world country with no access to new powder it might be worth messing with less than a pound of powder.
Primers are not cheap. To get a load worked up to take advantage of this powder will take how many primers and projectiles and how much time?

I can tell from OP's replies that he's going to try to use it anyway, so go ahead and treat it like Bullseye or Nitro-100 in terms of load speed, load at listed starting data, and pick something like a 38 special to start out with that has a lot of leeway. I bet it works out fine in the end. Just more work than I want to bother with. (but then I am spoiled by having a large cache of powders that I bought before the stupid took over, and I just bought another fresh 8#er of PROMO a couple weeks ago for $90 on the shelf at the LGS)

Assuming the two above 'red' highlighted statements become true...I'd highly recommend mixing the powder well...and often, as these different sizes and shapes may want to congregate near "like" sizes and shapes during use in a powder measure, if vibration is present, like on a turret press.
My 2¢
Jon

PS, while I am no expert, my first thought when seeing the photos in the OP, was that this mystery powder was "mixed" powders. I know I have a jug of random mixed powder in my stash...from various mil surp pulls...maybe 2 lbs. I use some of it once in a while for random projects, not related to reloading for firearms.

[Forrest r]

Hodgdon's longshot looks allot like the picture of the powder you posted. It has 2 different colored powders in it.

87412

After taking the picture posted above I shook the paper baxck & forth 2 or 3 quick times to see if the powder would seperate (small flakes to the bottom/large lite flakes to the top) & this is what it looked like. The black flakes floated to the top.

87413

I looked up the meg bushing/powder throw weight size for the mec 29/longshot & it wasn't close.

Your weight 23.?gr
Hodgdon manual meg 29/longshot 29.0gr

I don't have/load any shotgun shells so I don't have anything to test the powder with. I do have an old set of the lee dippers laying around. I could use any of them to see what the different dippers/longshot weigh.

[762 shooter]

That looks very very close. I have the Lee dippers and will try those to see if there is some type of correlation.

Do you have any 231? My powder granules are half the size of 231.

Thanks for the input. If in fact there is any question about it being two powders all bets are off.

762

[Forrest r]

I have hp-38, it's supposed to be the same as ww231 from what everyone says. Yes the hp-38 flakes look twice as large as the longshot flakes. There's a couple other hodgdon powders that use different size/color granules in their powder. I don't have anymore titegroup to look at but I thought it had different color/size granules in it.

Try taking a couple different sized lee dippers, filling them & weighing them with your mystery powder. Tell me what dippers to use & I'll weigh the same dippers full of longshot.

[762 shooter]

Will do.

762

[Hounddog]

HS-6? A lot of buckshot and slug loads list blue dot and HS-6. Just my 2cts.

[762 shooter]

Lee dipper Grains of mystery powder
0.3cc............... 3.1
1.3cc............... 13.35
2.2cc............... 22.7
3.4cc............... 34.5
4.3cc............... 43.4

On the Lee charge slide rule the corresponds to SR4759 which is a bulky, large grain pistol powder that this is not. Doesn't match Longshot either.

Maybe I have very consistent particle size floor sweepings? Sounds like I got mixed powder. Dagnabit.

Thanks to all. If I had one type powder I think the Lee dipper test should have directed me to the answer. I think I got a mix.

762

[Hang Fire]

I got some reloading equipment from a deceased reloader's family member. Two MEC shotgun loaders, one 12 and one 20. Box containing one pound containers of powders including Red Dot, Blue Dot, Bullseye, and Unique. Two full MEC powder jars. One was Red Dot (easy to identify). The other one is my mystery powder. It is not Blue Dot Unique, or Bullseye.

The attached pic shows the relative size and density compared to Unique, Universal Clays, and Bullseye.

It is a very small flake silver powder with a few dark gray flakes mixed in. Flakes approx. 25% the size of Unique.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2d92wxj.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/2u90t2t.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/1huwe8.jpg

The flash makes the darker flakes really stand out. To the naked eye the color difference is not that pronounced. A #29 bushing throws a charge of 23.2 grains of this powder.

I have a pound of this powder. I would like some best guesses so I might buy a pound to compare them and possibly feel comfortable about using my mystery powder.

Any ideas as to what powder it may be?

762

Spread it around the flower bed and wet down well. For me, there are no mystery powders, just unknown ones that need to be disposed of ASAP.

[dverna]

Interesting thread.

Looks there are some smart guys on both sides of the issue. Mirror mirror on the wall, who is the smartest of them all?

Don Verna

[Hamish]

Titewad is top 3 fastest powders out there, right?

So:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8953

" My 38Special loads using 147gr Flat Nose lead and 3.0 grains TW = 121 pf, and handles like a hot 22lr load. Next to no muzzle report, and very clean burning."

Seriously, I ask you, how could you possibly go wrong with this powder by loading 3 grains and working up? Like Catshooter said way back in what, post 2? Load it like the fastest powder in a strong firearm.

[dkf]

HS-6? A lot of buckshot and slug loads list blue dot and HS-6. Just my 2cts.

I just checked my HS-6. The large flakes in the picture he posted are larger than the HS-6 I have. All the squished balls of the HS-6 are closer to the same size than the mystery powder in the photo.

The mystery powder looks an awful lot like Longshot or is a franken mix.

[jimb16]

Color looks right for solo 1000, but the grain size looks small. Check out solo powders. It might be one of those.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Several years ago I bought some bullet molds from a friend and he gave me a one pound coffee can full of a powder he had marked 4831, the I never bothered to look at it before I got home and it turned out to be a mystery ball powder, obviously not 4831. I took a small vial of the powder to the range and no one could identify it so it became rose bush food. I never bothered to weigh the stuff but in volume it is much heaver than coffee and it filled the can to the top. You might ask why I didn't just ask my friend what the powder was, well his mind was beginning to slip a bit and I just couldn't rely on anything he told me.

[22 rifle]

i just wanted to weigh in on one thing that i didn't see anyone else mention about this unknown powder.i just got a new redding powder measure that i had been wanting.the directions had specific warnings about not leaving powder in the measure for an extended time because they say that it will react with the plastic in the hopper.also it can be dangerous to reduce some powders below a certain level also, it really worth it?i just had an employee of a range that i've gone to for years tell me that a guy bought a new ruger redhawk in 45 colt and blew it apart with the 1st shot out on the range with a handload.i also know of 2 other gun blowups where folks were killed.one guy had a piece of steel blown through his skull and in another a kid standing down range had part of a rifle barrell go through his chest.get rid of the stuff and hopefully the lord will give you many years to continue to enjoy this fine hobby that we all share.

[birddog]

Looked at a couple of powders on hand, size matches up with titegroup but the weight is listed at 27gr. in #29 bushing and titewed is listed at 19gr in #29 bushing. Only other powder that matched the weight category but had none to look over was AA#2. SR4756 and Alliant 20/28 is the other but it is same grain size as unique.
Charlie

[454PB]

Not passing judgement on what to do with it......but it looks like WW 452AA to me.

[Old Caster]

Occasionally a powder seller has come to me to see what powder it is compatible with. I always start out with 2 grains of the powder in a 38 and a 148 grain bullet and am ready to drive it out of the barrel if it sticks. So far none have stuck and they always have made it out of the barrel but sometimes not by much. I work up the load and watch the velocities and how it feels until I am satisfied what it is comparable to. I have run into a powder before that acted pretty much like Unique in a 38 but acted much faster in a 45 ACP to the point that a Unique weight load in a 45 may have caused a problem. The powder seller decided to move it on and sold the entire quantity to another party because in his mind that could be too risky to sell. If you know what you are doing any powder can be checked and a 38 load that shot in a heavier .357 gun like mentioned above several times is the best tool.

[badbob454]

yes start low as with a very fast powder and work your way up then shoot in that gun only ,... until you have figured it out . i use mixed or pulldown powders to burn out ground hor-nets !!

[Forrest r]

I have 4 or 5 #'s of aa452 & it's a solid color (grey).

Weighed a couple lee cups with longshot in them & they came out allot heavier than what you had posted.

Buuuuuuttttt, the #'s you posted for the different sized cc cups is a pretty good fit for aa473. I got those #'s from an old scale (1980's) that came with the set of dippers I bought decades ago.

The lee templet/scale lists aa473

.3cc ='s 3.1gr
1.3cc ='s 13.3gr
2.2cc ='s 22.6gr
3.4cc ='s 34.9gr
4.3cc ='s 44.0gr

I'd be taking a look @ aa473. The 4759 is a real slow powder that is mainly used for reduced loads in rifles, it burns slower than 4227. They could of used the 4759 in shotgun shells years ago?

[Shiloh]

Think its called fertilizer. Looks alone tell you nothing.

Shiloh

[sthwestvictoria]

I know I have a jug of random mixed powder in my stash...from various mil surp pulls...maybe 2 lbs. I use some of it once in a while for random projects, not related to reloading for firearms.

Sounds interesting - do flesh this out a bit. I should start keeping my floor sweepings.

[762 shooter]

Thanks to all who have weighed in from every perspective. Cautioning posters of the inherent dangers of thinking outside the box is a valid point. I'm sure some new to reloading don't take the time to read anything but the answers to their questions on an internet website. A 10 year old child can have thousands of posts credited to their username, just as someone with 60 years of experience can.

Most people think of reloaders as " thinking outside the box". It's all relative. I can assure you that filling up a 45 Colt case with mystery powder and seeing what happens is not in my future.

I have stumbled on a way to narrow one's choices of a mystery powder by using Lee dippers to gain one more piece of evidence in determining a type of powder.

I learned something new. It's better than a stick in the eye.

I just hate to pour out a substance that changed the course of humanity. There must be something that is entertaining, relatively safe and not illegal that I can use this substance for.

762

[Three44s]

If you knew it was not mixed powders you could try some light .38 loads in a .357 and be prepared to drive a squib load out of your barrel ......

But mixing is not out of the question here. You could take a number of samples of your one pound and put them on white paper and compare to see if the relative mix remains constant ........

But as much as I am "tight" about these things one has to realize that time is money as well.

Here, I'd say time and hospital bills win out.

Three 44s

[Shiloh]

Thanks to all who have weighed in from every perspective.

I can assure you that filling up a 45 Colt case with mystery powder and seeing what happens is not in my future.

I just hate to pour out a substance that changed the course of humanity. There must be something that is entertaining, relatively safe and not illegal that I can use this substance for.

762

It just isn't worth the risk. There are those who may try, I am not however one of them. I was given some powder once in a fishing worm container.
He said it was Unique. Looked like Unique and weighed pretty close to Unique. Notice I said Pretty close to Unique.

I put it in a tuna can, put a 10" piece of green visco fuse in it, lit it and watched it burn.

Shiloh

[Reverend Al]

Call me cautious, but I just spread about a 1/2 pound of "something" small, black and granular in my wife's flower-bed beside the driveway! It came to me in a margarine tub with a hand-written masking tape label across the top that said "4831 DOP" (???) ... and I'm just not willing to take the chance that it isn't what the label says it is! I've got more than enough tins of factory packaged and properly labeled powders to keep me busy for ages ... safely.
Just my 2 cents worth ...

[tuckerdog]

I'm interested. Please explain.

762

use drill press and drill small holes about 2" From arrow point through shaft of aluminum arrow shove a very tight fitting piece of foam to just below holes, pour epoxy ontop of foam so to seeps through holes, this is to hold epoxy in place in order to build pressure without it just blowing out the nock end. pour mystery powder on top of epoxy after it sets up drill point insert to allow powder to flow through and superglue into arrow place primer into insert and a light coat of epoxy to hold in place(I put a piece of 71/2 shot on primer) and shoot into something atleast 40yds from you. works pretty cool. you can experiment with different powder charges untill you get good arrow flight