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View Full Version : Reloading .303british cases for the .410 shotgun



hitch.bd
11-12-2013, 07:12 PM
Hi fellas,
I know there are a million threads out there for this, I've read many of them... most of them say to use 2400 powder.
I have a fair amount of 700X powder and HS-6, I am going to use this if I can find a start load. I don't need huge velocity or long distance, my wife bought the shotgun and wants to use it for grouse occasionally.
I have the first, annealed, cases loaded with 9 gr of 700X and cream of wheat to fire form them.
I have a wack load of 1/4" felt wads that I will hole punch down to the correct diameter.

My question is simple, Does anyone know what the safe start load would be for either of the above powders?
Thank-you for any help you can offer!
Hitch

snuffy
11-12-2013, 09:22 PM
Hi fellas,
I know there are a million threads out there for this, I've read many of them... most of them say to use 2400 powder.
I have a fair amount of 700X powder and HS-6, I am going to use this if I can find a start load. I don't need huge velocity or long distance, my wife bought the shotgun and wants to use it for grouse occasionally.
I have the first, annealed, cases loaded with 9 gr of 700X and cream of wheat to fire form them.
I have a wack load of 1/4" felt wads that I will hole punch down to the correct diameter.

My question is simple, Does anyone know what the safe start load would be for either of the above powders?
Thank-you for any help you can offer!
Hitch

No, none-of-the-above. .410 bore acts more like a rifle than a shotgun. It uses---needs a slow burn rate powder like 2400,, WW296/H110,, or Hodgdon lil-gun. There's no loads listed for those fast powders because, it won't work.

As for wads, you're going to need oversize wads. The brass rifle shells have much thinner walls, so you need an oversized wad. I cut some hard card wads using a 44 magnum case with the mouth sharpened with a chamfer tool. The unsized 44 case resulted in a .431 outside diameter for the wads, turned out to be ideal fit for the CBC/magtech brass .410 cases. Those were for the over-powder wads.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/151679/magtech-shotshell-hulls-410-bore-2-1-2-brass-box-of-25

hitch.bd
11-12-2013, 10:18 PM
Hey Snuffy, Thanks for your reply. I agree with you that a .410 acts more like a rifle than a shotgun, that is why I am so confused. Why will it not work? Is it a pressure issue? If so too much or too little?
I reload 30-30 cast rounds with 6 to 7.5 grains of 700X for low recoil fun plinking rounds...they shoot great!
I read that the .303 Brit and the .444Marlin are the easiest cases to convert to .410 hulls. Using the same book that I got the 30-30 data from they have data for the .303 and the .444 using 700X. I can only imagine that there would be less pressure in a shotgun load due to less friction and weaker seal by wad and shot.
As I said in my OP I'm not looking for huge velocity ...just a light grouse load.
If as you say, It will not work, I would just like to learn why not so I can better understand this fun ,interesting sport.

snuffy
11-13-2013, 01:08 AM
Hey Snuffy, Thanks for your reply. I agree with you that a .410 acts more like a rifle than a shotgun, that is why I am so confused. Why will it not work? Is it a pressure issue? If so too much or too little?
I reload 30-30 cast rounds with 6 to 7.5 grains of 700X for low recoil fun plinking rounds...they shoot great!
I read that the .303 Brit and the .444Marlin are the easiest cases to convert to .410 hulls. Using the same book that I got the 30-30 data from they have data for the .303 and the .444 using 700X. I can only imagine that there would be less pressure in a shotgun load due to less friction and weaker seal by wad and shot.
As I said in my OP I'm not looking for huge velocity ...just a light grouse load.
If as you say, It will not work, I would just like to learn why not so I can better understand this fun ,interesting sport.

Yes it's a pressure issue. In order to get lets say 1200 fps for your grouse load with 700-X, you'd go way over the standard pressure that the shotgun can handle. It has to do with expansion ratio. The smaller the bore the less volume the powder gases have to expand, so you use slower burn rate powder.

Look at loading data from 12 ga., then 20 gauge, then 28 gauge, finally .410. Notice as the gauge gets smaller,(and the inside bore diameter), the burn rate of the powder gets slower. You won't find 700-X being used in 20 ga, except some ¾ ounce loads.

You can use the 700-X for 30-30 lead loads because the rifle can stand 35,000 PSI, while a .410 shotgun can only stand 12,000. You might get a few more pounds of usable pressure because you're using a stout brass case rather than plastic. But the barrel is the final decider.

Get some slow stuff, 2400 also does well under lead in rifles.

lylejb
11-13-2013, 02:31 AM
I can only imagine that there would be less pressure in a shotgun load due to less friction and weaker seal by wad and shot.

Because shotguns run less pressure than rifles, the barrels are lighter / thinner than a rifle. Also, the heat treatment of the reciever is not the same. They cannot withstand rifle pressures, they were not designed to. This leaves less margin for error.


700x is a BIG no go for the .410. It's one of the fastest powders out there, and way too fast for 410. If you were to load 700x, either the load would be grossly over pressure, or if loaded to safe pressures grossly poor performing. We have no practical way to measure pressures at home.

A couple of years ago, I started loading 444 marlin brass for 410. I was given a load for herco ( two steps faster than 2400) that worked well in the end. I also tried blue dot and it worked as well, but may have been somewhat lower velocity.

I first tried "by the book" loads for plastic cases with win 296, as I had that on hand. VERY disappointing, about 1/3 of the loads were "bloopers" that barely made it out of the barrel.

This was the effect of the different expansion ratios of the brass vs. plastic cases on the 296 powder. It might be great in a AA case, but sure wasn't in the 444 case.

I also suspect the burn characteristics of ball vs flake powder may also play into this ( my hunch, not proven).

The HS6 is in the burn range between herco and blue dot, so you MAY be able to make it work. I have not used it, so I cannot say for sure. There is no published data for this, only what info someone else has tried. That info may or may not be safe and reliable.

Please be careful.

Here is the thread I started: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?88896-444-marlin-brass-for-410-brass-shotshells&highlight=444+marlin

hitch.bd
11-13-2013, 11:21 AM
Thanks for the info fellas this makes more sense to me now. I guess I will go pick up some 2400 or some bluedot if I can find any...I like bluedot for my 12g slugs but...its been hard to find lately. I will read your thread lylejb and thanks again fellas
hitch

Fishman
11-13-2013, 12:14 PM
You'll like the 2400 in your 30-30 if you try it

firefly1957
11-13-2013, 07:57 PM
Lylejb
A note on your Bloopers it is not the powder expansion that caused your issues but more likely a weaker primer 296 needs a hot primer to light it and i do not think in this case a rifle primer is as powerful as a shotgun primer.

lylejb
11-13-2013, 10:13 PM
Lylejb
A note on your Bloopers it is not the powder expansion that caused your issues but more likely a weaker primer 296 needs a hot primer to light it and i do not think in this case a rifle primer is as powerful as a shotgun primer.

Could well be.

If I recall, I was using WLP primers same as my 44 mag loads.

In any case, my results with 296 in the brass cases were poor, and that's the point I was trying to make. Hoping others can learn for my mistake.

As I found another load that did what I wanted, I didn't go back to continue work with 296.

Outpost75
11-13-2013, 11:19 PM
FWIW I load 5- in-1 blank cases with Federal .410 plastic wads for 2-1/2" target loads, nd 1/3 oz. of #8 shot, cutting the protruding shot cupoff with a razor blade and crimping a .375 GC in the case mouth for my old. 44-40 Iver-Johnson shotgun. I use 13.5 grs. of #2400 powder. Faster powders are no good due to high pressures which blow patterns. Velocity of these loads is subsonic and pressure is mild. They are good 15-20 yard bunny and grouse loads.

hitch.bd
11-16-2013, 11:06 AM
Thanks for all the great info and help fellas, definitely a help. I have been looking all over the valley for either bluedot or 2400. There is none to be found any where. I hope this drought ends soon!
Hitch

WILCO
11-17-2013, 08:44 AM
If as you say, It will not work, I would just like to learn why not so I can better understand this fun ,interesting sport.

I'll never understand why folks refuse to purchase the proper manuals and go from there.

hitch.bd
11-17-2013, 12:57 PM
http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z415/hitchb_d/reloadingbooks_zpsc7fc6a35.jpg (http://s1188.photobucket.com/user/hitchb_d/media/reloadingbooks_zpsc7fc6a35.jpg.html)
As you can see I have several reloading books ,including the one you posted, however most do not have .410 in them and the ones that do do not have brass cases for shotguns.
I'll never understand why folks are so quick to belittle people without having all of the facts.
Hitch
ps, sorry for the crappy cell phone pic...I wanted to show that I am not one of the folks he is referring to.

snuffy
11-17-2013, 01:25 PM
I'll never understand why folks refuse to purchase the proper manuals and go from there.

Okay, show us the info that hitch was requesting, page # in the Lyman book! Hint--- there isn't any!

Lylejb posted; quote
I first tried "by the book" loads for plastic cases with win 296, as I had that on hand. VERY disappointing, about 1/3 of the loads were "bloopers" that barely made it out of the barrel.

This was the effect of the different expansion ratios of the brass vs. plastic cases on the 296 powder. It might be great in a AA case, but sure wasn't in the 444 case.quote

I'll guess you also used a standard plastic 410 wad? It's too small in diameter, it didn't create a tight initial seal against the inside of the thinner/larger brass case. Then a difficult to ignite ball powder like 296 was a perfect scenario for bloopers. The 296 is like fine sand, it probably migrated around the gas seal as well.

Bullshop Junior
11-23-2013, 06:07 AM
Hey Snuffy, Thanks for your reply. I agree with you that a .410 acts more like a rifle than a shotgun, that is why I am so confused. Why will it not work? Is it a pressure issue? If so too much or too little?
I reload 30-30 cast rounds with 6 to 7.5 grains of 700X for low recoil fun plinking rounds...they shoot great!
I read that the .303 Brit and the .444Marlin are the easiest cases to convert to .410 hulls. Using the same book that I got the 30-30 data from they have data for the .303 and the .444 using 700X. I can only imagine that there would be less pressure in a shotgun load due to less friction and weaker seal by wad and shot.
As I said in my OP I'm not looking for huge velocity ...just a light grouse load.
If as you say, It will not work, I would just like to learn why not so I can better understand this fun ,interesting sport.

The easiest to make cases from is 405 win. Trim to leanth and boom done. May have to thin the rim a little depending in the gun.