9MM Issues.

[Hanzy4200]

I'm still a bit green, so bear with me. I've been reloading for about 2 years, and casting around 3 months. It has been a love at first cast.

My current issues are with my 9MM boolits. I'm having accuracy issues and a degree of leading. I'm using the Lee TL356-124-2R mold. A 124 gr RN for those unfamiliar. I am tumble lubing with LLA and sizing to .356. I have tried 3-4 different powders, COAL's from 1.00-1.25, tight crimps to very light crimps, water dropped and air cooled. I can't seem to get consistency. One shot flies straight, the next goes wild, and so on. I am unsure of the exact harness of my lead, as it is mostly WW mixed with range scrap.

What drives me nuts, is that my .45's are dead on. I'm casting 230 gr. RN and 200 gr. SWC and they shoot great out of both my .45's using the same alloy. I have also been loading and shooting thousands of Missouri Bullet Co. 124 and 115 gr. 9MM's for some time, with zero issues. No leading and excellent accuracy. These are sized at .356, and that is why I choose .356 for my own. Any ideas?

After 12-15 different combinations and failed attempts, I'm ready to pull my hair out. Am I sizing to small?

[ultramag]

Have you slugged the bore? Without doing so it is hard to know if you are sizing to small or not. If I were to guess, based on my experience so far and the research I've done, you most likely are. I would expect sizing to .357 or even .358 would be beneficial.

This sticky is a good place to go for information to regroup and start over:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

Have you pulled a loaded boolit to examine and see if you're sizing them down when crimping? It seems the TL'ed boolits don't do well in many applications. I've shot TL'ed in every caliber I cast and load for with the exception of 9mm. I've had great luck with the Lee 356-120-TC boolit. I also recommend seating and crimping in a separate operation if you're not already doing so.

Good luck!

[MtGun44]

"lubing with LLA and sizing .356" - .356 is usually a problem with 9mm, recommend .357 or .358
and LLA is a marginal lube system, often inadequate with 9mm when conventional lube works
fine. Strongly recommend Lee 356-120 TC conventional lube with NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue
at .357 or .358. Harder is typically not helpful, often harmfull if too hard.

Check this out:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

9mm can be a PITA, but there is a known solution.

Bill

[M Hicks]

Try not sizing them at all. I have the same mold in six cavity and lube them with 45/45/10 as cast. They have worked great in four different 9mm pistols.

[Hanzy4200]

I have ran a few hundred unsized, but with some coming out as wide as .361, I was a bit concerned. Many of them will be lopsided, measuring .355, then when turned, .358. This is just another of a hundred questions I have. Is inconsistent bullet diameter the result of the mold or alloy being to hot, or not hot enough? These measurements were from bullets made in some of my first casts. I have since found my bullets to be more uniform, though still varying by as much as .003.

As far as the leading, this may be partially related to how much LLA I was using. I listened to early advice that only a thin coat diluted with mineral spirits was needed. After using this method on my .45's, all seemed well. Using the same application on the 9mm's resulted in heavy leading. I am now increasing the amount of lube on the 9mm's and have seen I big improvement, though not perfect. I still have yet to put many downrange after increasing the lube.

[Hanzy4200]

I have not yet slugged anything. Partially because I've been told I need a micrometer to read it, and only have a caliper. Also because I will need to slug 5 different barrels and have been avoiding it. You are to use a sinker correct? What size is appropriate for a 9mm bore? Could this be done with a oversized bullet?

[w0fms]

I'm going to try powder coated in 9mm next. I had the same issue with 9mm. .357" is a minimum for .355" bore 9mm, LLA isn't good enough, IMHO. 45/45/10 is better but I still had some leading. I manually put in (PITA!) some homemade lube into the grooves of the Lee 356-125-2R I used and 45/45/10 and the homemade lube cleared up the leading at .357". I suspect switching to powder coated will work fine though as it does in the 380.

9mm is darn near a "magnum" load, and it's a bit trickier, especially in cast.

[fcvan]

As someone said before, your seating/crimping of the May also be resizing your boolit too small. Back when I was pan lubing and shooting the Lee 356-125 2R as cast (.358 as cast) I adjusted the dies to where the boolit did not end up smaller. The seat/crimp process will address a slightly out of round boolit, and the first inch of the bore definitely will. I also use the Lee 356-120 TC (.3585 as cast) and size to .358 diameter. The last time I tried sizing to .357 I ended up with guns that patterned rather than grouped. For the past 6 months I've been powder coating and sizing to .358 with as good of results as lubing with BAC, but with slightly mor velocity using the same charge. I'm not a big fan of the TL designs, but several guys who PC like the design for that purpose.

[historicfirearms]

Since you said you had good luck with the commercial cast boolits at .356, your lube is likely your problem.

[Shiloh]

My suggestion from reading into the second paragraph, is they are to small. .356 is too small. my will run pretty good at .357. much better at .358.

Shiloh

[HeavyMetal]

I'm thinking the first thing I would do, were I in your loading area, would be to take a very strong flash light and a good sized magnifiying glass and turn the harsh light of day on your castings.

What your looking for is incomplete fillout signs: rounded base, lopside measurements, wrinkles, pits the usual suspects.

I think you'll spot most of these issues in your 9mm castings. Sizing, because they are lopsided, merely hides the problem but, and this is important, it also leaves you with an imperfect base which isn't sealing when the boolit exits the muzzle. Because your not having the issue with commercial cast boolits I really think this is where you need to go.

Same deal as a dent in the crown but backwards, if that makes any sense.

Now I am not in you shop so can only guess b ut I do know that the smnaller a casting the harder it is to see these imperfections, also bigger boolits hold heat better and are easier to cast.

Ask any one with experience which is easier 230 grain ball Copy or 50 grain 223 boolits? It sure won't be the 223 until you get some pour time under your belt.

Now once you determine the real issue with you 9mm boolits you can move on to testing for a good load.

By the way which 9 are you loading for?

[jeepyj]

Plus one for them being undersized. I size to .357 with zero problems in three different 9mm autos. I use COWW with 2% Babbitt. During my learning curve I was sold a .357 mould & .357 sizer for my 38 spl that almost was the end for me. Test after test with different powders, different amounts, changing crimping nothing worked & I was very discouraged. I had leading, sideways flyers in fact doing research for that problem lead me to this site. Now with proper sized boolits and sizers to match my gun, I have no problem shooting 1-2 "groups all day long with no thoughts of leading or sideways flyers. Disclaimer - 1-2" groups are with a rest and a red dot.
Jeepyj

[Hanzy4200]

XD-9 Service model, S&W 6906, Kel-Tec Pf-9, Glock 17 factory barrel and Lone Wolf match grade barrel. I have so far mainly been testing my loads through the Glock barrels, as it is what I shoot the most. Contrary to popular belief, the factory barrel handles cast better and leads up less than the Lone Wolf.

[noylj]

I get good results with 0.357-0.358" bullets (I shoot as-cast, no sizing) and LLA in all my 9x19s. I find that a 124gn L-SWC is more accurate than a L-RN.
Try NOT sizing your bullets and simply giving them a light coat of LLA (or Lars 45/45/10) and see what you get.
Many commercial casters have had so many complaints that they are now sizing their bullets to 0.357".
PS: you need to slug you barrel. All 9mm barrels are NOT 0.355. I have a BHP with a groove diameter of 0.359" which, per Browning, is within specification for groove diameter.

[w0fms]

Heh.. I have a .357 sizer because I got it for .38 SPL. Made the same bloody mistake as everyone else! ;)

Luckily it wasn't that bad for me and the 357-158-SWC mold drops are .358" w/o sizing and are fine 45/45/10 lubed. When I start ES PCing 38, I'll need to order a .358" sizer. .357" sizer was a happy accident for 9mm and 380 as all are fine for me personally. I think .358" would be a little big for the 380's....

[kingemandigger]

I have had similar problems with the lee TL 124 .356 cast boolits in my 9mm handguns. The problem with my boolits is that they drop from the mold at .356 diameter, and the lee .356 sizing die sizes to .355. Therefore, I cannot just size to a greater width. Therefore, I recently ordered the lee .358 125 rfn. This will hopefully cast to the right size... Knowing lee, they will probably come out at .357 from the mold. I hope this boolit will work better.

[Freischütz]

9 mm bore diameters are very inconsistent. You have measure the bore and throat diameters to see what is needed for your gun. .357-.360" has been the rule for the pistols I've owned.

[Hanzy4200]

IMPROVEMENT! Todays range session was a great leap forward. I ran about 250 rounds, all through the stock Glock 17 barrel. They were not flawless, but a massive improvement in accuracy. Even better, leading was very minimal. Instead of 30 minutes of scrubbing the bore, it took two passes with Core Boy and she was shiny as hell. Todays alterations were adding a thicker coat of LLA, and bumping the charge up to 5.6 gr. of Unique. More importantly however, I crimped these VERY lightly. I honestly believe this was my critical mistake, overcrimping. I became accustomed to crimping this way on my commercial cast bullets, with no problems. I believe the difference in bullet groves and alloy hardness between the two caused this crimping method to partially crush the first lube groove and shrink the bullet, causing the bullets to no get a proper seal. This would explain the horrible accuracy and badly leaded barrel.

[jeepyj]

You'll find the testing never stops in fact the better the boolits get the more the ideas flow and the testing continues. It seems that I hardly ever set up to shoot a tried and true round without another that I'm trying to test for my next favorite. I love this sport, there is no end to "shooting for perfection" no pun intended. Ok a small pun intended.
Jeepyj

[Hanzy4200]

I agree. Although it can be frustrating, constantly striving for that "perfect load" is really what we are all about. It is like what addicts describe about their drug use. There is such a rush of pleasure and pure satisfaction derived from that first batch of handloaded ammo. We chase that same high for the rest of our reloading careers.

I am always asking myself, "why can't you ever get this **** nailed down!". If I really think about it, I HAVE nailed it down, it's just that as soon as I get that issue, load, or practice figured out, I start working on a new one. I will say, the journey of bullet casting has been by far the most challenging. As a newbie, the massive list of variables makes your head spin. Alloy hardness, sizing, lubes, bore diameters, different molds, pots, heat treating, and the list goes on.

[w0fms]

Overcrimping will swage the boolits. All bets are off when that happens. And that probably happened with you. On semi-auto taper crimped rounds in particular I'd go as light as you can go, and then even lighter. ;) Just enough to take the edge off with your fingernail. Revolvers with rolls need a little more because of the recoil potential of backing out/in the boolit. But then again that is designed into the revolver cartridge. A good guide is to go a little lighter than a factory round on the crimp.

On a Factory Glock barrel, if I owned one.. I'd probably start powder coating since there are rumors of the big KB's with Glocks. I also hear that's ****.. but ES PC in particular is so nice anyway I'd definitely ditch the LLA.

[alfloyd]

I had the same problem, leading, with my Taurus PT99. I slugged the barrel and found that it was 0.3575 inch in diameter. I tried to shoot 0.358 dia. standard lubed boolits and still got leading. Then I tried powder coating the boolits using the Piglet method with no lube sized to 0.358 inch. The leading went away and they shot great. I also like the looks I get when people see me shooting RED boolits. Powder coat worked so well in my 9MM that I am using it on all my cast slugs now. They go thru my RCBS and Star sizer's great with no lube. The Piglet powder coat method is easy and cheap to do. I use Harbor Freight red powder coat at $5.50 per pound.

Lafaun

[gwpercle]

The 45 acp is a joy...never had any problems making accurate loads. Shot it in Bullseye matchs and even won a few trophies.

The 9mm luger is a STINKER. I have never had so much trouble reloading any other round. I think the Germans cursed it and sent it over to make our reloading lives miserable. I refuse to spray paint boolits to get them to work

Gary

[MtGun44]

Started with the 9mm, first mold ever. Never had any problems. Then never shot any
boolit handloads in 9mm for maybe 30 years, and started back with Lee 356 120 TC two
cav and had great results at .357 diam. New P1 needed .358 so started using that as
std diam for all 9mms (HP, B92, Keltec, and more) never had any leading.

Look at the stickies.

Bill