PDA

View Full Version : Understanding Lube Signs on 9mm



JeffG
11-11-2013, 11:43 PM
Hi folks, I have an interesting thing I'm trying to work out and need a sanity check.

I'm shooting a S&W SD9 VE 9mm. I'm casting 2 different bullets, a TL356-124TC and 356-120-TC, both from Lee. I use the same alloy of air cooled COWW with 3% tin then age hardened 3-4 weeks. I lube the TL356-124-TC with straight LLA, dry, run through .357 sizing die then lube with LLA again, let dry and age harden. For the 356-120-TC, I dip lube these in melted sticks of Lyman Alox (NRA 50/50 formula) and run through the same .357 sizing die, followed by age hardening. The bullets are about .0005 over chamber diameter and there is an noticeable interference fit when I manually press a round into the chamber.
As far as the charge goes, I typically use 4.1-4.2 grains Unique but am also playing with Blue Dot at 5.9 grains. I'm using a Lyman M die and when I run though the Lee FCD, I apply no crimp. When I pull these rounds and mic, no resizing has taken place.

Now here's the thing I'm trying to understand and troubleshoot. The TL356-124-TC doesn't lead at all. The 356-120-TC leads a minor amount at the muzzle only, but easily cleans up with a couple strokes of a bronze brush and sometimes just a solvent patch. When I inspect the chamber after firing the non TL rounds, at the point where the cartridge headspaces, I sometimes see a buildup of lube that has a couple times resulted in it sometimes not completely going into battery. In short, it seems like it's losing some lube in the headspace area. This is making me wonder if this is part of the reason why I'm leading at the muzzle, because I'm losing some lube at the headspace or edge of the chamber.

I skipped dip lubing a batch and have been trying those 356-120-TC's with nothing but LLA or 45/45/10 on them and basically see no difference between them and when I fill the lube groove, other than the chamber area no longer gets gummed up.

So, here's my question... Is it possible my lube is a little on the soft size and I perhaps need to do something like add a little Orange Magic or some other harder lube to the NRA formula melt I'm dip lubing in? I also experience some blow by around the cases with either bullets, maybe because I'm staying closer to starting loads. Would upping the powder charge have any positive effect on the lube issue?

Thanks:confused:

captaint
11-12-2013, 10:15 AM
If your "leading" cleans up that easily, it's probably not actual leading. More like antimony wash..
Your soft lube is a very good one. I would leave that alone. Lubes will, sometimes build up in the chamber/throat area. I have to shoot quite a bit, like at least 200 rounds to see any real buildup of lube - enough to cause a failure to go into battery. If it were me, I believe I would just keep on shootin..... As long as accuracy, etc, were acceptable. Mike

Larry Gibson
11-12-2013, 10:26 AM
The Unique charge is not obturating the case enough and lube is forced into the chamber area around the mouth of the case. Blue Dot will probably only exasperate that. Both of your loads are "start" loads. I suggest you up the charge of Unique to 4.9 - 5 gr or switch to 4 gr of Bullseye. I'd not even use the Blue Dot unless you really want to work at getting 7.8 - 8 gr in that small case.

Larry Gibson

JeffG
11-12-2013, 11:15 AM
The Unique charge is not obturating the case enough and lube is forced into the chamber area around the mouth of the case. Blue Dot will probably only exasperate that. Both of your loads are "start" loads. I suggest you up the charge of Unique to 4.9 - 5 gr or switch to 4 gr of Bullseye. I'd not even use the Blue Dot unless you really want to work at getting 7.8 - 8 gr in that small case.

Larry Gibson

Really good point Larry, I appreciate that. I believe I shall do as you suggest, go back to Unique and up the load. I also have some Bullseye and Accurate #5 to play with too. Have a good day.

JeffG
12-31-2013, 12:08 AM
Captaint, Larry,

I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your inputs. I've been working your suggestions.

I went on up to 4.5 of Unique and that has cleaned up the blow by the majority of the time. I'm not seeing anything concerning on the primers so plan to continue to bump it up a little more.

I had been experiencing what I thought was leading but have since come to the conclusion it isn't leading but what I think I understand as antimony wash. I can run a bronze brush through the bore with or without solvent and 1-2 passes removes it. I had been using air cooled COWW with 2-3% tin added and decided to go down the path of changing the alloy to about 49% lead, 49% COWW and added a tin ingot that brought it to about 1.5-2%. Using Bumpo's alloy calculator the alloy should be ~10.5 bhn. This has reduced the antimony wash interestingly and what little remains continues to easily clean out. Throughout, I've left the NRA 50/50 lube alone and didn't mess with that.

As these variables were getting sorted out, I got in a 4500 lubri-sizer which I'd ordered and a .358 die, just in the off chance I really didn't have the bullets sized quite big enough. When sized that large, there was an occasional issue going into battery so I think they were a smidge big for the throat which I had slugged at .356-.3565, but they shot fine at that size. After a batch of those, I ran another batch of bullets through the Lyman .358 die followed by a Lee push through .358 sizer which brought them to .3575. These also fired fine but were still just a little tight going into battery on occasion so I ordered a .357 die for the 4500 and that seems to be the ticket. They chamber without issue, have a little resistance pressing the bullet into the throat, and the accuracy is good.

I put some over the chronograph today. Here's the results:

Hi = 1073
Lo = 1030
ES = 42.40
SD = 14.93
Shots
1 - 1046
2 - 1063
3 - 1030
4 - 1032
5 - 1055
6 - 1054
7 - 1073
8 - 1056
9 - 1036
10 - 1031

Thanks again

MtGun44
12-31-2013, 07:23 PM
Also, try seating the 120 TC a touch deeper if you have chambering issues, and tighten TC a touch.

Bill

runfiverun
12-31-2013, 09:23 PM
you are blowing the soft lube out of the lube groove.
the harder lube should help stop this, but so could something as simple as a little more taper crimp [not from the fcd]

Jupiter7
12-31-2013, 09:54 PM
you are blowing the soft lube out of the lube groove.
the harder lube should help stop this, but so could something as simple as a little more taper crimp [not from the fcd]

Light taper crimp in a separate stage was my first thought also.

JeffG
01-01-2014, 01:11 AM
Also, try seating the 120 TC a touch deeper if you have chambering issues, and tighten TC a touch.

Bill

Thanks Bill,

So far I've been seating this particular bullet to 1.075 OAL. I have planty of things to play with. Things are coiming along nicely and I'm learning. Happy New Year

JeffG
01-01-2014, 01:13 AM
you are blowing the soft lube out of the lube groove.
the harder lube should help stop this, but so could something as simple as a little more taper crimp [not from the fcd]

I had given some thought to a harder lube or adding some orange magic to some NRA 50/50 but decided to leave that alonbe and work the other variables for the time being, and I'm making progress. I expect I will get back around to this at a point and perhaps dip lube a batch with some harder lube for an experiment. Happy New Year

JeffG
01-01-2014, 01:20 AM
Light taper crimp in a separate stage was my first thought also.


I presently am seating in a Lee die and have a Lee FCD after that in the last stage but am not applying a crimp, just ironing the flare from the M die. The bullets are not being swaged down on any samples pulled from the case. I think I will leave this alone for a while too and work the powder charge and perhaps play with the alloy a little more. There's plenty to play with and I don't want to change too many things at once. Thank you and Happy New Year

runfiverun
01-01-2014, 02:10 AM
the ironing the case flat is generally recommended and is what you are thinking of.
he/I am speaking of delaying the case opening process just long enough to get the boolit moving forward and getting the lube portion of the boolit into the barrel.

JeffG
01-01-2014, 10:05 AM
the ironing the case flat is generally recommended and is what you are thinking of.
he/I am speaking of delaying the case opening process just long enough to get the boolit moving forward and getting the lube portion of the boolit into the barrel.

Thank you, I think I am getting it. I may need to look into a different crimp die but might try to apply a mild crimp wuth the FCD then pull the roumnds to make sure they aren't swaged.

Have a good day

MtGun44
01-01-2014, 08:07 PM
That is exactly the right thing to do.

Have you read the sticky on "Setting up a new 9mm for boolits"?

Bill

JeffG
01-01-2014, 08:36 PM
That is exactly the right thing to do.

Have you read the sticky on "Setting up a new 9mm for boolits"?

Bill

Absolutely, several times. Probably need to revisit again.