View Full Version : Newb Q's
11-12-2007, 01:38 AM
I just got around to casting 500gr slugs to pp...these came from a Rapine mold I got early fall. I got a 400 and a 500gr mold but figured the I would cast with the 500gr because I have loads worked up from shooting regular 500gr cast bullets. They come out at .446 and I usually shoot .459 out of my W&H 45-70 Buffalo classic.
I'm using .003 thick paper that came with the molds but I'm only getting 2 complete wraps which brings it up to .454ish....Should I stick with the .003 paper try and get some more and cut them longer so I can get 3 wraps? I have some other paper here but its .0011 thick should I go in search of some more paper and take my mic with me :mrgreen:
Also how much of a tail do you keep on the flat base bullets? I have about 1/2" left with the papers that came with the mold and have just neatly folded them in and tucked them under...i've only done a small handful...I'm getting great cosmetic results but I need to change something to get the thickness right.
Also is there some way you keep the amount of the bullet that the jacket covers when you are wrapping? Some sort of jig? Does it matter?
Get a copy of LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCH BULLETS by Randolph Wright, Orville Loomer's booklet from Shiloh Sharps and THE PAPER JACKET by Paul Matthews (this one's out of print and getting scalper prices.)
The first two are a gold mine of information. Wright has a lot of illustrations and pictures...and good general info on black powder loading too. Orville's is good also. But the Matthews book has a lot of info on jigs, patching boards, etc.
Don't forget SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST by Mike Venturino. There is a chapter on paper patch and details of his experimenting.
Go to shilohrifle.com/forums. There's a lot of discussion there you might find interesting....and links to other sites. :castmine:
11-12-2007, 10:18 PM
Will it hurt things at all if I give the bullet more than 2 wraps of paper as long as I need it for the thickness? Pending on if I can lay my hands on some thicker things tomorrow or not. Is there a brand or type of paper that I should look out for? I have phone book paper that is .0002 thick I'm tempted to try it.
What is the "Goal" paper ? What kind of content should I ask for. I've read about people using 25% and 100% rag but I'm confused by that? What makes PP paper special?
11-13-2007, 08:00 AM
wonderwolf , the nice thing about pp is you can do all kinds of stuff with no leading ,
You can shoot undersized, you can shoot groove size, you can seat deep, you can seat into the barrel , it is just what you want to do ,
I use 440 diamater bullets wrapped to .446-448 diam . in a black powder ctg rifle . they are 1.5 inches long and are seated into the barrel 1.35 inches . this is what I like to do
, you can wrap it to over groove size and wrap over the ogive and seat so the patch enters the chamber seat as you do normal bullets and do that
as to the paper you can use any size you want to get the desired effect . as long as it does not have a clay content , which is usually found in recycled paper and" finished " papers .
the 25% and 100% rag papers are made from cotton rag , and are both strong can be found in the lighter weights.
to use a smaller diamater bullet I use a soft alloy that will bump up to fill the bore. a harder alloy can be used if you are wanting a larger dia. bullet that has to be swadged down when fired in your barrel .
Hopes this clears up a few of your questions............Dean
11-13-2007, 01:15 PM
Clay or Calcium carbonate? Since I'm in college I might do some interesting experiments while I have the facilities to do so. Take various papers to a chem lab and have them run acid tests on them as well as a mass spectrometer.....I'm amazed at how many other things shooting covers as far as branched out resources. [smilie=1:
11-13-2007, 03:26 PM
.. the clay is used in some paper for the polished finish I believe , 100% cotton rag is just that pure cotton ..what is in the other 75% of 25% i dont know either but recycled is probably anything and it has short fibres which would make it a lot weaker than the rag paper . .Look in the drafting section of the bookstore and look for Vellum some of ot os quite heavy and 100 % cotton , you might also chesk there for some 9# onionskin this is normally rag ,,, dunno about the Cal. carbonate but the testing you suggest would be fun and interesting . if you do it pass on the info .Please ..............Dean
11-13-2007, 06:36 PM
This day has learned me more about paper than I care to know[smilie=1:...3 hours on the phone and several stops to "paper shops" has my head spinning.I got some odd and confused looks when I was so detailed on my parameters
I've tried phone book paper and it seems like it is very doable...but I'm unsure on the paper content or the effects in the barrel. Compilation paper popped up when I was talking to a friend I went in search of some and found it at office max...did not purchase it since I might be able to get it for free. Also the green/yellow die has me worried on acid content. That is what turns paper a dif color over time. I found several papers that were "linen" and did state that they were "acid" free...however they were toothick. Plain old notebook paper was my next thought however the stuff I have here is .003" thick and would take 3 wraps just like the phone book paper which brings them up to .460-.461 and .458-.459 respectively
I did see the Vellum you speak of I believe it was drafting bond paper...which really did peek my interest. I was concerned with the thickness however and did not pick up any of that either.
So from what I have gathered thus far we are looking for
High content of cotton,rag or linen however they label it
virgin non recycled paper
little or no ink, dye or markings
in a weight that is 20# -16#'s
possibilities I have come up with but have not eliminated just yet
*Phone book (mostly made of recycled paper however)
*Bible paper (going to hell in a hand bag for this one?)
*Compilation paper (green/yellow dyes acid content, Lack of weight stated on packaging)
*Plain notebook paper(lack of weight and paper content,possibly acidic,most of it is recycled)
*Printer paper HOWEVER the fibers in this are very large and it breaks down after wetting.
Onion skin paper is one I have yet to search for
I think "linen" refers to a texture finish rather than the fiber content when talking paper.
I'd only worry about acid content for archival work or art, where changes in the paper lead to degradation over a longer period of time than it takes me to shoot them up.
It's easier to find heavier paper these days than the classic 16# papers I grew up with. I've not had any problem with triple wraps of lighter paper. I want the paper to protect the bore and the bullet, but still want the bullet large enough or to upset enough the engage the rifling itself.
Best of luck to you.
11-13-2007, 08:38 PM
I'm liking the phone book paper. I sent 3 emails out to paper companies. We will see what comes back. I mostly asked what kind of common paper had these parameters. what it was called and where I could get some from their suppliers in my area.
Simpler way to find how long your paper patch needs to be.
Diameter of your bullet take mine for example is .446-.447 We will use the bigger number. we take that and multiply it by 3.14 and that gives us the circumference of the bullet. Then we multiply that by how many wraps we want to give our boolit.
.447 X 3.14 =1.40358 X 3 (number of wraps of paper I need with this thickness) =4.21 and we will subtract .2 from that to keep from overlapping.
11-13-2007, 08:42 PM
http://www.thepapermillstore.com/pages.php?pageid=65 here is where I get my onionskin paper .and the drafting vellum is real good patch material as well . you havent said what you are using for lead but if you need you can use 3 wraps on your bullet if you need the size . my 446-448 bullets bump up just fine and i shoot them to 1200 yds rgularly with good results for my eyes . they are pure lead and are pushed by 100 gns of black
11-13-2007, 08:51 PM
Might see what Danielson has to say
11-13-2007, 09:38 PM
Might see what Danielson has to say
I read that last winter when I was doing some research he has some great ideas in there
Right now the slugs I have sitting under the desk neatly tucked away in .45acp blocks are 500gr .446 diam cast from WW with out water quenching which is a method I use for all my other boolits but a step I skipped in these since they are to be PP. I have a great source for very soft lead....But I'm not sure when i can get any
11-14-2007, 08:32 AM
wonder, is your bullet tapered ? just curious.........Dean
11-14-2007, 02:56 PM
Nope, its a RN that is 1.33" long and .9" of that is parallel sided/cylinder if you will
I'm lacking a digi camera I hope to have one before the end of the month but we shall see
11-15-2007, 10:09 AM
Ok, I wanted to try some phone book paper...I'm doing 3 wraps to bring the bullet diam up to .458ish The paper is .002" thick and 3 wraps should bring it up to the .458/9mark.....I rolled some last night and checked them this morning .455-.456" I made sure they were 3 wraps I cut a few up and measured the combined thicknesses of the paper. Yet .012" checked the thickness of the bullet ...yep.446-.447....So is this due to shrinkage? The test phone book one I did a few days ago was good but now I'm a little frustrated :???:
11-16-2007, 10:31 PM
Tonight I loaded a few test rounds to shoot when I go home for Break. I didnt know how far out to seat them so I used loads ranging form 40-50gr and seated the bullet out in 2 dif lengths using dif loads. How far out do you guys usually load out you PP bullets. I'm using Phone book paper which I don't think will hurt anything for testing....or 10,000 down the road...I might just stick with it I think.
11-17-2007, 12:31 PM
Wonderwolf p.m. me with your address and I'll send you a few sheets of paper I have 9lb, 13lb, and 16lb paper all 25% cotton fiber. I have sold a fair amount of this in the past and have used it myself with good results.
11-17-2007, 07:42 PM
you are wet wraping and this is stretching the paper . causing it to dry smaller. . try wrapping them dry and seating them as you wrP THEM..
you probably wont get them to obdurate with ww if you are shooting light loads but you dont need them to at 459.
push the bullet into the barrel and measure from the base to the end of the barrel them figger how deep it needs to be,,
wrap the patch over the ogive so it starts into the barrel and you should be good to go........Dean
11-18-2007, 01:55 AM
..............Almost any high quality paper is suitable for patching. It has to stand being wet without falling apart, and must stand being stretched when wet. The tighter it's wrapped on the slug the tighter it will grip when shrunk and dry.
1) Dress pattern paper runs about .0007" to .001" yeilds .003" dry.
2) 9lb onionskin Airmail paper, about .002" yeilds .007" dry.
3) Medium typing, or 16 lb paper about .003" yeilds .010"/.011"
4) Std typing, or 20lb paper, runs .0035 - .004" yeilds .014"/.015"
5) 24 lb bond, runs .0045" and yeilds about .018"
You can get into your document and architectural vellums that run 60, 80, 100 lbs but I've never tried patching with them, but I did by some 40lb vellum and the price was ferocious at Kinko's. Office Depot was 2/3 the money.
Some tracing papers (good stuff) is superb patching paper and not real expensive. Go to your stationary or art supply store armed with a mike and see what they have. Years back when I got my 577-450 Martini-Henry, our range master got one also. I'd been patching for mine using the Lee 458-405F and 20 lb paper.
One time he showed up with ammo he'd paper patched up with 4 color slick advertising paper out of the newspaper! He had used TP over the powder charge, and each shot was a ticker tape type blizzard. The very colorfull advert paper did a fine job too.
Using pre patch sizing of the slug, different papers and sizing after patching you can achieve most any desired diameter you'd like. Sizeing AFTER patching will press the paper into the boolit and is fine for hunting or shorter range shooting, but will affect the ballistics at longer range.
11-21-2007, 07:00 AM
I went camping last weekend with my old scout troop who does a thanksgiving feast just north of where I'm at for school 3 full sized turkeys over a fire pit...drooool. Anyways my dad met up with me there and dropped my rifle off and I got back to my apt and checked how deep to seat the bullets. I'm surprised at how far in I have to seat them. I loaded 3 wrap bullets and 2 wrap bullets and loaded them with loads going from 40gr of 777 (a little more than needed for no air gap) up to 55 gr which brought the powder to the top of the case but went down 1/4" when settled down.
My next run I might try some of that LEE alox stuff I got with a bullet sizer. it dries fairly well and should keep the powder softer than the un-lubed pp bullets I'm going to shoot this weekend. I'll be sure to brush after every shot. I have a old 3 band Enfield ram rod I plan to use just for this particular application.
The trace paper is .0011 around here, I think phone book paper will work well for now. I'll see if I can pick up any patches after shooting. I'm toying around with the idea of getting some more lee sizer dies to pop in the lathe and bring then down so I can size the bullets, I noticed they are not lined up when they come out of the mold by .001 I made sure the mold was clean but couldn't get that seem to go away on either side. I started a new notebook just for PP bullets separate from my usual loading note book. I'll cast up some 400 gr bullets and try those as well since I'll be able to fit a'lil more powder in the case and see where that brings me velocity wise.
01-17-2008, 12:02 PM
I have another Q now....Why is the bullet in this link .452 after patching....Its supposedly the original sharps style....but for .45 cals? dosnt it need to be .458?
I've also gotten a good deal of soft lead now from a smallbore only indoor range hope to grab more as time goes on.
01-17-2008, 01:55 PM
Did you notice the bottom "Sharps Long Range Bullet Paper patched from .446" - .452" OD"
There are 2 methods of patching "patch to bore" & "patch to groove".
01-17-2008, 05:35 PM
So his bore diam is .452? is that what we're getting here? I understand there are 2 methods now its just I didn't think they could be that small. Eh I guess I don't know enough yet to know I don't know enough lol
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