Lee carbide FCD test

[brotherdarrell]

Got home tonight with my new 45 acp carbide factory crimp die. I knew I was going to remove the carbide ring due to the fact that it swages the boolit down too much when used but I thought I would find out just how much.

I seated 4 452460 boolits (.452") to length with no crimp in the seating die and then crimped three of those to increasing amounts with the carbide FCD. I then cycled each through my Rock Island GI, pulled the boolits and checked diameter to see how much I lost.

I knew I was in trouble when I ran the first one into the FCD, it barely touched the carbide ring. After crimping it did not touch at all. I pulled all four boolits and checked diameter and I'll be durned if they weren't all the same size, .4515".......DOH!!!! The boolit that was just seated and not crimped same as the others.:oops:

Now I KNEW that my 45 colt FCD swaged the boolits down and to prove it I decided to check the same way. As a control I took a loaded round that was roll crimped and tried to put it in the FCD..........and it dropped right in ........DOUBLE DOH!!!!!!

It would appear, at least in my case, that the carbide FCD is not the EVIL that I thought it was. In both cases there is absolutely no swaging down of the boolits that can be attributed to the carbide FCD.[smilie=b:

There is what you know and what you think you know. I now have to reassess what I thought I knew. I hate being wrong, but I hate ignorance more.

Darrell

[aussie-dave]

Hit and miss I think. My 9mm FCD swaged the heck out of my .358's but the .45acp barely touches.

[Larry Gibson]

I have the FCD in 9mm and 45 ACP. I've found the 9mm FCD will swage down .358 cast but not .356 sized cast. hmmm, seems .356 and .355 are supposed to be the nominal size of bullets for the 9mm. Since I use .357 sized bullets (Lee's 356-120-TC) and load them mostly on the Dillon SDB the Lee FCD seldom is used. The Dillon loaded ammo has functioned perfectly in numerous 9mm handguns and subguns.

The 45 ACP is a different story. I went along fat, dumb and happy for many years loading and shooting .452 sized cast in Lyman dies, RCBS dies and on the Dillon SDB and they also functioned in every 45 ACP handgun, subgun and rifle I used them in (quite a few different guns over the years). Then I got my P14 custom made for my SF company and it has a "Match" chamber. It started to fail to chamber on 1 - 3 rounds every magazine with the slide not closing the last 1/4" or so. Didn't matter which dies/brass were used the results remained the same; failures to chamber. I was on the road 1500 miles from home with an ammo can full of ammo that wouldn't work. I found a FCD at Cabella's and used it with the Lee hand press which I had with me. I sized those 45 ACP cartridges in the FCD and they functioned flawlessly in the P14 and gave excellent accuracy, as good as ever. Subsequently I have shot the LCD sized 45 ACP ammo (same load; 452-190-SWC over 5 gr Bullseye) in my other 3 M1911s, my Contender, my M1917, my Uberti SAA and my M98 rifle conversion with no loss of accuracy in any. Laser cast .451 sized cast bullets functioned fine in the P14 as do .451 j bullets so I assume the FCD is sizing the .452 cast to .451. I will probably just start sizing my own cast to .451 to avoid the extra sizing step and I do load most of my 45 ACP on the Dillon SDB. The LFC die saved the day for me on that trip so no complaints about it from me.

Larry Gibson

[Tatume]

Hi Darrell,

It's always amazing, the difference between what we know we know and what is real. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Take care, Tom

[HeavyMetal]

FYI:
In Lee's reloading manual they spend a bunch of chapters explaining the reloading process and tell a few tales of product return issues, I particularly like the story of the returned hand priming tool with the handle completely mashed and the mangled primed case still in it!

When it was explained to the end user that he might have been using to much force (?) the end use proudly claimed it took him both thumps to get it like that, LOL!

Lot's of fun info in that manual buy one just for the insight into Lee Precision.

Now for the Pistol FCD story in that manual: seems that grinding carbide inserts is not only very hard, they are ground on a radius, but the scrap rate is very high, Lee's own words by the way.

Seems he and one of the engineers were looking at 55 gallon drums of scrap Carbide sizing die inserts trying to figure out what to do about it, being scrap price was zip and none.

A few days later the engineer showed up with the proto type pistol FCD utilizing the scrap carbide inserts!

Happy Days!! A way to take scrap parts and make money caused by horrible QC!

This is why your Pistol FCD die's can be all over the place when used with cast boolits: it's because they are recycled scrap at least according to Lee's Reloading Manual!

Now this idea works well with Jacketed bullets, but with cast it is a diffinate hit or miss because the carbide inserts are ground oversized and really can't be reground because that woulld make then scrap the second time around, LOL!

There for each pistol FCD die will be a story unto itself based on how oversized it was originally ground before someone reallized they were having an "OOPS" moment.

Lee makes a lot of neat products and the FCD die should be made in two fomats, Jacketed and Lead, so the end user can use the product correctly.

Sadly the pistol FCD die isn't so much a tool of design as it is a tool of cost correction.

I like the idea but it is really lacking in execution, something that could be cured if Lee Precision would actually set up a real QC dept. and make this tool like it should be and not as an after thought.

[jmort]

The handgun FCD should be checked to see if it will be too tight and swage your boolit/bullet, and if so, open it up. It would be nice if Lee offered a cast boolit version, but even then, it might still need to be opened up. In the end, make it work for you.

[mdi]

So, your purchase was a waste of money? The FCD did nothing? :kidding: My FCD swaged the boolit down approx. .0015"-.002" so I removed the ring, and realized my Redding Profile Crimp Die did a better job on the crimp so I tossed the FCD...

I chalked it up as learning another test when troubleshooting my ammo; measure bullets after seating/pulling...

[Spawn-Inc]

So, your purchase was a waste of money? The FCD did nothing? :kidding: My FCD swaged the boolit down approx. .0015"-.002" so I removed the ring, and realized my Redding Profile Crimp Die did a better job on the crimp so I tossed the FCD...

I chalked it up as learning another test when troubleshooting my ammo; measure bullets after seating/pulling...

And the good thing about your lesson is it didn't cost a whole lot as compared to other dies.

[brotherdarrell]

So, your purchase was a waste of money? The FCD did nothing? :kidding: My FCD swaged the boolit down approx. .0015"-.002" so I removed the ring, and realized my Redding Profile Crimp Die did a better job on the crimp so I tossed the FCD...

I chalked it up as learning another test when troubleshooting my ammo; measure bullets after seating/pulling...

The way I chose to look at it is that Lee's lack of quality control saveId me the time and energy required to remove the carbide ring.:smile: At first I was a little disappointed because I was going to show what this evil piece of reloading equipment did to our boolits. For denying me that Lee will forever be in my dis-favor.

It does do a first rate job of applying a taper crimp, though.

Darrell

[dragon813gt]

Every FCD is different. I use it with jacketed bullets since there is a fourth hole in the turret. I've had some random feeding issues but the FCD seems to have fixed them. Now with cast, every one I have swages the bullets down to much. Which doesn't really matter because the crimp die works just fine and I don't have a fifth hole on the turret for the die ;)

I do love the Rifle FCD dies. They make the collet style in some pistol calibers and one of these days I will get around to buying the ones I need.

[bhn22]

They simply do not work for guns that require larger than nominal diameter bullets however. For example, my 629 has .433 throats, there is no way I'm buying a custom mold for it (which I did), and then use a crimping die that will mash my bullet down to a spec that somebody read out of a book somewhere. Oversized throats are pretty common in many older guns, and even my Colt 1911 prefers .453 bullets. The FCD may work fine for some applications, but it is up to us to determine if it's appropriate for our exact application. The best part? We do this because we like to experiment.

[milprileb]

They simply do not work for guns that require larger than nominal diameter bullets however. For example, my 629 has .433 throats, there is no way I'm buying a custom mold for it (which I did), and then use a crimping die that will mash my bullet down to a spec that somebody read out of a book somewhere. Oversized throats are pretty common in many older guns, and even my Colt 1911 prefers .453 bullets. The FCD may work fine for some applications, but it is up to us to determine if it's appropriate for our exact application. The best part? We do this because we like to experiment.

Yes Indeed. I saw accuracy decrease using the FCD in 45 acp and 9mm loads with my cast bullets . It negated what I wanted more than anything: accuracy. It is the Ducks Guts for ensuring every round will feed in any 45acp or 9mm pistol I own. THe FCD may solve one problem and invent another is the story line of my experience in using it.

There is a wise member here whose logo I have long forgotten who warned me of all of this years ago when I asked about the FCD. His warning was: "If your rounds don't feed reliably the use of the FCD is not the solution to the reloading problem". Sure, the FCD may make the ammo feed (Larry Gibson example ) but Me as the reloader is doing something wrong if I make ammo that does not feed and use the FCD to fix it.

FCD: Not the wheel that rolls for me but I spent the money and tested it and discovery learning was not too expensive.

If one is shooting 5, 7, 15 yds, I guess FCD can do little harm as any load shoots rather accurate at such anemic distances. Its at 25 and 50 yds, the FCD can be poison to your hand loads with cast bullets.

[mdi]

Every FCD is different. I use it with jacketed bullets since there is a fourth hole in the turret. I've had some random feeding issues but the FCD seems to have fixed them. Now with cast, every one I have swages the bullets down to much. Which doesn't really matter because the crimp die works just fine and I don't have a fifth hole on the turret for the die ;)

I do love the Rifle FCD dies. They make the collet style in some pistol calibers and one of these days I will get around to buying the ones I need.
Every FCD is different? Someone better tell Lee! FCDs don't fix feeding issues, they just hide them...

[jmort]

"FCDs don't fix feeding issues, they just hide them..."

Did you really think about the "logic" of this? T-1 feeding problem. T-2 Use FCD and no feeding problem. What is the difference, in practical terms, of "hiding" and "fixing" ??? In the real world, no difference. That is why the FCD naysayers are a tiny vocal minority. Tiresome to say the least. The handgun FCD can swage down over SAAMI spec boolits. Simple fix is to open up the ring to the size you want/need. Simple. Takes about 15 to 20 mins. It is a good/great crimp-die. Open it up, if necessary. With J bullets, it should work out of the box and promotes uniformity and consistency, which is why it is so popular.

[HeavyMetal]

HOLD ON THERE!

Did you say "open up" the Lee Pistol FCD die it only take "15 to 20 Minutes"?

Perhaps I missed something in past posts so let me post what I "know": carbide is one of the hardest materials on earth and, If I remember my Lee Manual correctly, the only way to cut / polish carbide is with some type of diamond cutting material!

Does this mean someone on site has the tools to cut / shape carbide? If so inquiring minds want to know if for no other reason than a source of that skill for "repairing" undersized Carbide inserts or perhaps propose a rifle carbide sizing die GB!

I'd love a 308 or 30-30 carbide rifle die if it didn't cost more than a new car!

[dkf]

You can grind carbide with silicon carbide abrasives but they wear fast and have a bond that sheds abrasive quickly. You still are not going to get a good job without the right equipment.

I have and use a few of the FCDs for bottle neck cartridges. If you have to resize your brass twice your sizer die is not doing its job and/or you have other issues that need addressed. I was talking to a guy at the gun shop when I picked up a lower last moneth. He said the Lee FCD was the greatest piece of reloading equipment every invented. I had a good laugh at that one.:lol:

[milprileb]

Folks use FCD rather loosely. There is a Carbide Crimp Die for pistols made by Lee
and then there is the FCD (Factory Crimp Die) for rifles made by Lee.

2 Different dies doing tasks differently. There is no such thing as a FCD for pistol calibers nor a Carbide Crimp Die for Rifles.

Apples and Refrigerators...different things all together.

[Garyshome]

I use the heck out of my Lee FCD's. I use them on all calibers of cast [Pistol] boolits!

[DougGuy]

Interesting discussion for sure! I had no idea how the FCD came into being, but it makes sense that they can't use or sell oversize product and for what it does, the FCD is a pretty smart idea on Lee's part. I am seeing a glint of sunshine in this method, in that the OP started this thread with the knowledge that these dies did something evil and yet when he went looking for evidence to support his claim, found that 1.) his die did not do the evil that he perceived it to do, and 2.) his die is likely larger than many others like it.

If this is the case, that means that we could buy several of these dies, choose the one that's sized to suit our needs the best, send back or resell the ones that didn't. There's your custom size die right there.

[Sensai]

If I wear a size 36 waist pants, I don't buy size 32 and complain about them being too tight. If I have to use oversize boolits to make a gun shoot right, I don't use dies designed for standard size boolits and complain because they come out too small. If you don't want the ammo to be sized down, don't use dies that are designed to size it to a standard chamber, but don't complain that it does what the manufacturer says that it will do! Just my two cents worth, but I get awfully tired of every time the subject comes up people cry about the FCD doing EXACTLY what Lee says it will do! If you like other dies, then sing their praises, there's no need to try to tear down the reputation of a product that many people use and like, especially if it performs as advertised. Rant over, I now return you to your regularly scheduled program. [smilie=b:

[captaint]

My first set of 45ACP dies was the Lee set, with the FCD. When setting up for the FCD die, I was VERY careful to slowly increase the travel of the seated boolit/round up into the FCD. After adjusting just barely enough to remove the bell and leave the loaded diameter @ .471/.472, all was well. Never really had trouble with the FCD. I no longer use the Lee dies. I got a set of the Lymans with the M die and I'm quite happy with them. Just my experience. Mike

[35remington]

Here's a question:

Once the bullet passes the carbide ring, why is the taper crimp section in the top of the die needed for autoloading pistol calibers? It is now below the SAAMI max for 45 ACP in terms of case mouth diameter.

In your reply, it would be well to acknowledge that taper crimping doesn't give an aid to cast bullets in terms of retention in the case until it is applied in much heavier amounts than most of us do. The oft recommended .470-.471" doesn't do anything because there's no "bite" of the case mouth into the bullet to any significant degree.

A taper crimp does nothing for jacketed bullet retention. Try holding the bullet in the case (use dacron to elevate it to the proper level for a crimp) when said case is unsized using a non Lee taper crimp die alone to see the effect of taper crimp only. The answer is "not much" as the bullet can be easily tapped into the case with a light knock against a desktop.

[brotherdarrell]

Here's a question:

Once the bullet passes the carbide ring, why is the taper crimp section in the top of the die needed for autoloading pistol calibers? It is now below the SAAMI max for 45 ACP in terms of case mouth diameter.

In your reply, it would be well to acknowledge that taper crimping doesn't give an aid to cast bullets in terms of retention in the case until it is applied in much heavier amounts than most of us do. The oft recommended .470-.471" doesn't do anything because there's no "bite" of the case mouth into the bullet to any significant degree.

A taper crimp does nothing for jacketed bullet retention. Try holding the bullet in the case (use dacron to elevate it to the proper level for a crimp) when said case is unsized using a non Lee taper crimp die alone to see the effect of taper crimp only. The answer is "not much" as the bullet can be easily tapped into the case with a light knock against a desktop.

In my case, with the Carbide FCD that I have the carbide ring does not reduce anything more than a slight amount of the flair that was placed on the case for seating boolits. Therefore it is NOT below sammi specs. At this point there still needs to be a crimp placed on the case. Some Carbide FCD do size below specs, mine does not. It is nothing more than a taper crimp die at this point.

I recently got a Rock Island 1911 GI. This is my only auto-loading handgun. I tried using the Lee seating die to seat and crimp at the same time. I do this with 44, 45 & 38 revolvers, roll crimping into crimp groove. It works well. In this case trying to seat and taper crimp 45 acp at the same time was futile.

If I just removed the flair boolits would set back in the case by up to .010", depending on design, when chambered. As I adjusted the die to apply a taper crimp as I seated boolits another problem came up. The more crimp that was applied the more lead that was pushed up in front of the case mouth. There is no crimp groove to put the brass into. As the crimp is applied the seater is still moving the boolit. At this point it made sense to crimp after seating as a separate step. Not wanting to change by seating die I chose to use a separate die, enter Carbide FCD.

My intent all along was to remove the carbide ring based on what I now thought I knew. That has been covered.

Does a taper crimp help with retention? I don't know. I do know that it is helping with boolit set back during chambering. I ran several dummy rounds from the magazine into chamber checking set back. At most I am getting .0015" as opposed to the .005" I was getting before. I am also getting flawless feeding, something I was not getting before. There is no lead ring building up at the case mouth from seating and trying to crimp at the same time. A quick check shows that the case mouth on W-W brass is @ .468"-.469". This gives just under .001" set-back when chambering. This is the issue, along with feeding, that I was trying to address when I chose to taper crimp as a separate step. Have I succeeded? Only shooting will tell.

I do not shoot jacketed so I cannot speak to what does or does not work in that case.

Again, MY Lee Carbide FCD does NOT reduce case mouth or boolit size in any way when using boolits sized @ .452" . This applies to both 45 acp and 45 colt. Neither gun need boolits larger. For all intents and purposed it is nothing more than a taper crimp die. The carbide ring does nothing, which is exactly what I want.

I don't know if this answers your question or not as parts of your question don't apply with MY Carbide FCD.

Darrell

[dkf]

If I wear a size 36 waist pants, I don't buy size 32 and complain about them being too tight. If I have to use oversize boolits to make a gun shoot right, I don't use dies designed for standard size boolits and complain because they come out too small. If you don't want the ammo to be sized down, don't use dies that are designed to size it to a standard chamber, but don't complain that it does what the manufacturer says that it will do! Just my two cents worth, but I get awfully tired of every time the subject comes up people cry about the FCD doing EXACTLY what Lee says it will do! If you like other dies, then sing their praises, there's no need to try to tear down the reputation of a product that many people use and like, especially if it performs as advertised. Rant over, I now return you to your regularly scheduled program. [smilie=b:

I understand what you are saying. For instance the SAAMI bullet size spec for 9x19 is .3555" -.003". Though a .3525" bullet would probably shoot like **** and yield crappy neck tension.

The issue is all the people bragging up and recommending the FCD often without any idea of what bullets the end user is using. Then they use a cast bullet which is obviously larger than .3555" dia and have issues because they don't know any better. I guess the real question is if the FCD is such great thing how come we managed to load billions of rounds before it was even invented.

[fredj338]

REsults will vary with mixed brass. I can only tell you that in my case, using a LFCD for the 45acp degraded accuracy w/ plated bullets, jacketed bullets & mildly w/ harder cast bullets. All for no real gain in reliability. IMO, the LFCD was a solution to LEE's poor QC or for reloaders w/ poor technique. Set your dies up properly, no one needs a LFCD. I don't recommend them to any of my reloading students, but it is just my informed & tested opinion.
On crimp holding the bullet. A taper crimp can NOT hold the bullet. It tapers from the base to mouth, it has no retention power. Over crimp, enough to put a dent in the bullet around the case mouth, then it is acting a bit like a roll crimp. Proper neck tension is achieved w/ a proper size expander & or bullet size. Crimping won't help keep the bullet in place.

[jmort]

"I guess the real question is if the FCD is such great thing how come we managed to load billions of rounds before it was even invented."

I love this "logic" - you can apply it to most anything. I used to walk five miles a day to school, and people walked billions of miles before the advent of automobiles, so why use an automobile? The real issue is whether the Lee Precision handgun FCD makes sense. Since a small vocal minority dislike the very mention of it, we get these reoccurring threads. It promotes uniformity and reliability, especially with semi-auto pistols. That is why it is so popular and why the large majority like using it. For boolits it may be a step backwards and swage down an over SAAMI spec boolit.

[Sensai]

dkf, I agree with what you're saying and you have a valid point about recommending equipment without knowing the application. I'm afraid that I have been guilty of speaking highly of the RIFLE type Factory Crimp Die. I use it and have had excellent results with it. I consider the PISTOL type Carbide Factory Crimp Die a specialty die, I use it with some semi-auto rounds from guns that don't have the best of cartridge support. I haven't had problems with it with my cast boolit loads because I read the specs on it and decided that it wasn't what I wanted for that application. My point is that every piece of equipment is designed to do a job and it's up to us to decide if what it was designed to do is actually what we want done. I'll be among the first to complain loudly if a piece of equipment doesn't live up to advertised standards and specifications, but if it does what it says it will I have no complaint. That's especially true if it doesn't do what I want, instead it does what it was designed to do. By the way, my biggest complaint about these dies is that the names imply that they are the same or serve the same purpose. I sure wish Lee had named the pistol type FCD something like "pistol crimp and final sizing die" or anything different than Factory Crimp Die. :confused:

[jmort]

"I sure wish Lee had named the pistol type FCD something like "pistol crimp and final sizing die" or anything different than Factory Crimp Die."

I don't disagree, but like most manufacturers, Lee Precision makes it clear, but many/most buyers/users fail to fully research the product:

"The Lee Rifle Factory crimp die is the only effective way to crimp bottle neck rifle cartridges. This important step should be performed on all loads used for hunting. Applying a Factory crimp will always improve the utility of the cartridge and in most cases it will also improve the accuracy."

"A carbide sizer inside the Carbide Factory Crimp die post-sizes the cartridge while it is crimped so every round will positvely chamber freely with factory like dependability. The adjusting screw quickly and easily sets the desired amount of crimp. It is impossible to buckle the case as with a conventional bullet seating die. Trim length is not critical so this extra operation takes less time than it would if cases were trimmed and chamfered."

Revolver dies roll crimp with no limit as to the amount. A perfect taper crimp is applied to auto-loader rounds. The crimper cannot be misadjusted to make a case mouth too small to properly head-space. A firm crimp is essential for dependable and accurate ammunition. It eliminates the problems of poor ignition of slow burning magnum powders.

[dkf]

Yep I use the rifle and bottle neck FCD crimp un modified. Since often time the 4pc die set with the FCD is more economical $$$ wise than the 3pc set and a taper crimp die. Sometimes I will just get the 4pc set and remove the carbide ring.(I like seating and crimping in other stations) I have scrap carbide around anyway. Carbide scrap prices can go up rather high sometimes.




I love this "logic" - you can apply it to most anything. I used to walk five miles a day to school, and people walked billions of miles before the advent of automobiles, so why use an automobile? The real issue is whether the Lee Precision handgun FCD makes sense. Since a small vocal minority dislike the very mention of it, we get these reoccurring threads. It promotes uniformity and reliability, especially with semi-auto pistols. That is why it is so popular and why the large majority like using it. For boolits it may be a step backwards and swage down an over SAAMI spec boolit.

Apples to oranges comparison really. If you did your job right with SAAMI speced bullets the sizer on the FCD don't do anything anyway. Most people swear by it because they are brow beaten into thinking it is a great must have die and/or don't know any better.

[mistermog]

I have the 9 and 45 FCDs. the 9mm is meant for FMJs and size the case to = a .356 bullet. IF you use bigger than that, yes youll squish it. ALSO in the stock lee set, the expander doesn't open up the case enough which smooshes it down a bit too. The 38S&W expander spud is a nice direct swap. The 45ACP FCD though is intended for .452 so it shouldn't do anything to standard sizes unless you upsize it.

You can take the FCD apart and a punch and knock out the carbide ring too, and turn the FCD into just a normal crimp die, I haven't done that to the 9mm die yet, but might at some point since my crimps seem a bit weak.

[35remington]

brotherdarrrel, you're misunderstanding me slightly. Maximum SAAMI spec for the 45 ACP at the case mouth is .473." All FCDs reduce the case mouth to this diameter or more often well below this diameter simply by passing the carbide ring, without any taper crimp at all. Once it has passed this ring if the case is sized and flared properly in previous steps no more needs be done to hold the bullet in place very solidly. If you need to do anything else to hold the bullet in place firmly, including a taper crimp, something is not right with the rest of how your dies are processing cases.

Next time seat a bullet and run the case through the carbide ring only. Remeasure. It will be below .473" at the mouth and will therefore chamber as it is below SAAMI spec. If it is above this measurement Lee screwed up the carbide ring in that die too. All FCDs in 45 ACP will do this.......if they do not then Lee cannot claim any "post sizing" is done. And they do specifically claim that. The problem comes when they flaunt that spec on the small end. If they finish above that diameter on your dies, again, that's a mistake too. If anything.....the window for getting the diameter "right" for the carbide ring in the FCD is even smaller than it is for sizing die. Finished diameter should be .473" plus nothing, minus nothing. This would do minimal harm to lead bullets. This isn't what comes out of the die in the majority of cases by all reports.

If your bullets are seating deeper when the flare is simply pressed up against the case mouth rather than taper crimped to any degree your problem is with your sizing ring in your sizing die or in the diameter of your expanding plug in your middle flaring die. Bullet tension is inadequate, and is better fixed with a smaller sized case diameter or a smaller diameter expanding plug. Remington cases are especially prone to this, as may any case with thinner case walls. As with smaller sized diameters for the bullet as well.

Bullet tension is 99.9 percent of what holds an automatic bullet in place during feeding and if you cannot hold it firmly without a taper crimp fix the other problem with your dies relating to sizing or expanding.

Seating and taper crimping in the same step has always been a mistake with the 45 ACP. That is why all the reloading concerns make separate taper crimp dies. The question is what good the carbide ring is, and as mentioned it's a way for Lee to get rid of their otherwise junk carbide that has been mis ground.

[35remington]

And if your LFCD die does produce a diameter of .473" at the case mouth without the taper crimp being used at the top, congratulations. You have the perfect one. Most of us get one that produces a case mouth of a couple thou below that after springback of the case and slight amount by the lead bullet, which means the inside diameter of the carbide ring is even a bit smaller than that. Just the odds playing out.

And a final question as food for thought.....if your factory crimp die's ring does not reduce the case mouth to .473" or below, how is that doing anything a regular taper crimp does not do?

The rub is........the LFCD is damned for not getting it perfect. If it sizes to any significant degree below the SAMI case mouth spec it is damned for reducing lead bullet diameter. If it does not size the case to the .473" SAAMI spec, but rather sizes them to something above this (pretty much unheard of, apparently, by intent in final dimensions) what is it doing that a regular taper crimp die does not do?

As I said, the window for getting it perfect is very small. If we could get LFCD's that produce .473" finished diameters at the case mouth there would be hosannahs to the heavens about them. It would truly and harmlessly post size in that instance given the mouth thickness of brass I am used to measuring and .452" or smaller bullets.

If you have such an exact die I can well understand your results.

[462]

It's interesting, to me, that some people find that the handgun carbide factory crimp die downsizes their 9 mm and/or .45 ACP boolits. It's just as interesting, too, that some people find that it doesn't downsize said boolits. Seems like a case of the luck of the draw, due to Lee's lax quality control.

[35remington]

I'm thinking the same thing. I don't doubt the findings of those who say what they do either way. Just want to make that clear.

[462]

+1.

Reality is that the final product does work and it doesn't work.

[35remington]

I'm not sure a 9mm carbide FCD could "swage down" a bullet even if the bullet was greatly oversized. Since the case is significantly tapered and the bottom of the case cannot be sized to mouth diameter, and the mouth of the case cannot be sized to base diameter, the bullet portion of the case should pass with no sizing through the carbide crimp ring.

The SAAMI spec for 9mm is .380" at the mouth and .391" on the base. Carbide sizing rings have to be tapered in the sizing die and straight in the FCD or they would not work. It would be nonsensical for the case to pass completely through the carbide ring and be sized to .380" or below at the base. This suggests that the carbide ring in the 9mm FCD is too large to affect bullet tension or bullet diameter as it must be straight from top to bottom rather than tapered to avoid making the base of the cartridge too small.

The debate over the FCD comes with cases that have little to no taper.

[mdi]

"FCDs don't fix feeding issues, they just hide them..."

Did you really think about the "logic" of this? T-1 feeding problem. T-2 Use FCD and no feeding problem. What is the difference, in practical terms, of "hiding" and "fixing" ??? In the real world, no difference. That is why the FCD naysayers are a tiny vocal minority. Tiresome to say the least. The handgun FCD can swage down over SAAMI spec boolits. Simple fix is to open up the ring to the size you want/need. Simple. Takes about 15 to 20 mins. It is a good/great crimp-die. Open it up, if necessary. With J bullets, it should work out of the box and promotes uniformity and consistency, which is why it is so popular.

All chambering, feeding, crimping problems that I know of can be fixed with proper die adjustments, proper components and techniques, yep, logical, and yep I have thought about this. More logic; how did any reloader, prior to Lee introducing their FCD get rid of chambering problems? Proper die adjustment and proper reloading techniques. Logical? Practical? I believe cast lead bullets have been used quite a bit prior to the FCD and those were used/chambered successfully pre-FCD. 45 ACP has been successfully reloaded for mebbe 100 years pre-FCD. Any logic in that? Let's suppose you are reloading a semi-auto cartridge and overcrimping to cause a bulge in the case, very common with new reloaders. When you run this case though an FCD are you fixing it? Does an FCD reduce the amount of crimp or just hide the fact that too much crimp is applied? Seems logical to me.

I would like to see the home reloader/hobbyist that has the tools/equipment to "open up" a carbide ring. I'd have him make me some custom dies with all the tooling/equipment he has! Carbide is not worked with a file and/or sandpaper. No logic in saying "it only takes 15 to 20 minutes" to machine carbide...

I personally don't care what you choose to reload your ammo. I just don't care for folks touting an FCD as the best thing to happen since smokeless powder, especially to new reloaders. It's saying "don't fix the problem, don't learn to adjust/set your dies, just hide it...."

Kinds like an oil leak on your car; don't fix the leak, just add more oil...[smilie=b:

[brotherdarrell]

35 Rem - Thank you for the fuller explanation, I now better understand what you were saying.

After reading your posts I grabbed 5 cases, sized and flared(Lee dies), seated 452460 @ .452" without crimping and then passes through carbide FCD without crimping. I then measured the case mouths with micrometer. By chance four cases were R-P and the fifth was WCC 1987.

When measuring the case mouth I got no measurements below .472" and none above .473". After checking multiple spots per case I would say the average was slightly above .4725" on all five cases.

I would like to repeat that when I got this die I fully intended on removing the carbide ring. My intention was to use is solely as a taper crimp die. After reading your post I will re-evaluate my loading process and try to determine the cause of boolit set back. Thank you for your posts and I am open to suggestions. I have loaded for revolvers for many years and this is my first auto loader.

I would also like to repeat the purpose of my first post was to show that MY carbide FCD did not swage my boolits when used, contrary to what I thought I knew.

Thank you again sir.

Darrell

[35remington]

Darrell:

Thanks. You made your point that your outside case mouth diameters precisely explain your .4515" bullet diameter after removal from the LFCD'd case. Sounds like you got one nearly ideally dimensioned.

[brotherdarrell]

Darrell:

Thanks. You made your point that your outside case mouth diameters precisely explain your .4515" bullet diameter after removal from the LFCD'd case. Sounds like you got one nearly ideally dimensioned.

I would simply point out I get the same diameter from a case that never saw a FCD.

And no, I don't know the headstamp on the cases.

Darrell

[35remington]

You should get the same diameter. For instance:

Combine a case wall thickness of 0.0105" max average (as found by measuring on my RCBS Casemaster) X 2 = 0.021." Add to bullet diameter of .4515." You get......0.4725."

Dead on. Right what your die has. If I wanted a .452" bullet diameter given the case wall thickness mentioned, the LFCD would need to produce a .473" as I mentioned earlier. Springback may have to be accounted for to some degree, but measuring as you did would clear up any small decimal place significance.

Spot on. No doubt you found exactly what you said you did, so I certainly don't question anything you've printed here.

The problem comes when you find the die produces .471." Then potentially we're down to .450" bullet diameter which may not be what is intended.

[noylj]

I may be off base, but did you measure a bullet after seating and before any other step? This is critical to know what the problem actually is.
I know many folks who basically do not expand the case--all they do is flare/bell the case mouth.
When they seat a lead bullet, the bullet is either swaged down (because the case ID is too small) or the bullet seats crooked and there is a bulge in the case where the bottom of the bullet pushed out the case walls where they are thinnest.
For lead bullets, you have to properly expand the case and that often means getting an expander that is 0.002" larger than standard or jacketed bullets.
I had no problems with a Lee FCD in .45 with bullets smaller than 0.453".
There is also no reason to use an FCD if you remove the carbide ring--should just get the Lee taper crimp die and sell the FCD.

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

If I wear a size 36 waist pants, I don't buy size 32 and complain about them being too tight. If I have to use oversize boolits to make a gun shoot right, I don't use dies designed for standard size boolits and complain because they come out too small. If you don't want the ammo to be sized down, don't use dies that are designed to size it to a standard chamber, but don't complain that it does what the manufacturer says that it will do! Just my two cents worth, but I get awfully tired of every time the subject comes up people cry about the FCD doing EXACTLY what Lee says it will do! If you like other dies, then sing their praises, there's no need to try to tear down the reputation of a product that many people use and like, especially if it performs as advertised. Rant over, I now return you to your regularly scheduled program. [smilie=b:
You nailed it Sensai!

[35remington]

For the record, what irritates people about the LFCD is when it sizes bullets that need no further sizing and are of the correct size when made of lead.

This happens with some of them.....like 45 ACP bullets of .452." So the dislike may very well have legitimate foundation and is not needless complaining in those instances.

These guys are saying "don't use it if it does that to your bullet."

How, exactly, is this complaining or advice that is not correct? Please address this issue only with any reply. As this is the real issue and we don't need to be tilting at any more windmills.

[jmort]

"You nailed it Sensai!"

Yes, indeed.

[35remington]

I'd consider he'd "nailed it" when a response to my post #44 is made that makes sense. In the meantime, the one that frequently didn't nail it has been Lee in terms of dimensionality, and these are clearly not suited to cast bullets of a mere thou larger than standard jacketed diameter. I've got a few of those myself, including one that sizes jacketed bullets of standard diameter. But it is what it is......Lee never said it wouldn't affect the bullet's diameter. They just said it "post sizes so every round chambers with factory like dependabilty."
'
So the suggestions not to use the LFCD if it undersizes your bullets is still valid, and "nailing it" doesn't address the problem with correctly diametered cast bullets. Suggestions to avoid its use are hardly bellyaching, just a bone to common sense, and a suggestion to look to see if harm is done.

Interesting that you're giving huzzahs to Sensai......after he admitted he doesn't use it for cast bullets either, and for the very reason the other guys are giving......it isn't suited to the application. Please reread his post #27. How is that different from what has been stated by everyone else?

[jmort]

"Interesting that you're giving huzzahs to Sensai......after he admitted he doesn't use it for cast bullets either, and for the very reason the other guys are giving......it isn't suited to the application."

This is not accurate. The naysayers are not using it based on the claim that it covers-up errors in reloading technique, and that all that is necessary, is to reload correctly, and not use the handgun FCD under any circumstances.

[35remington]

"The naysayers are not using it based on the claim that it covers-up errors in reloading technique, and that all that is necessary, is to reload correctly, and not use the handgun FCD under any circumstances."

But that's an exactly factual statement for many users who use proper technique and that must be appreciated by those who claim there is nothing wrong it. Perfectly good ammo with no problems whatsoever can in the vast majority of instances be loaded without the LFCD. This has always been true. Perfectly good ammunition can be loaded without using it ever if the rest of the dies are used correctly and are dimensioned correctly. This has also always been true.

It's also true that if you're fixing a problem with it, you can fix it another way than with a FCD. What you're saying is you're fixing it with the LFCD and it doesn't hurt what you're doing and I believe you. They're saying they've tried fixing it with a FCD and that's not the right way for them, nor is it absolutely needed or no one would have loaded any ammo successfully before it was introduced. I believe them too because I'm one of them. I've been on both sides, but my preference is to use it only when it offers some kind of benefit and I don't see that much of the time.

When I do use it, I don't force the round all the way through the die's crimp ring, but rather use it to size the very end of the case flare as a cylindrical "taper" crimp and I never use the taper crimp portion at the top as it's redundant in my die as it sizes to .471" with the carbide ring alone. This way I avoid squeezing the whole lead bullet in the carbide ring. When I do use it, a punch for my Lee sizing die in the appropriate diameter can be use to push an empty case all the way through to make it a bulge buster. So I think they have value, but I make sure they don't take anything away either.

And they can indeed do that if you have one that sizes to .471" like my 45 ACP LFCD does. .471" is too small for a .452" lead bullet and give my .451" jacketed bullets a bit of a tweak too. I don't like that.

This truth is unarguable......it can and does "fix" problems that can be fixed another way, and it can indeed cover up errors in reloading technique that may or may not cause problems later, which means the errors are not really "covered up" Whether you view the FCD as the correct way to fix the problem depends entirely upon whether your results are completely satisfactory in using it or not. If they are, smile and use it. If it is not fixing your problems in a satisfactory way, and many are saying it fixes their problems incorrectly, it's not right.

Can't see how that's not accurate as a statement if they've checked and found it's sizing their bullets excessively or loosening the case's grip on the bullet. In autoloading calibers, that's bad.

Sensai said it (LFCD) wasn't wanted for the application of cast bullets for him......his words. The other guys are saying it isn't wanted for the application of cast bullets for them for reasons having to do with it causing harm or covering up problems better fixed another way. Can't see the difference there, so I'm not sure how that characterization is inaccurate either. Both don't want to use it.

[mdi]

...:goodpost:


Lee's getting a billion dollars worth of free advertising here...;-)

[jmort]

Lee Precision is #1 for good reason and can't keep up with demand as it is. Free advertising is a welcome bonus.

[fouronesix]

:) Of all the hand wringing and fretting and arguing about the Lee FCD for the 45 ACP... there is a simple solution. Just get a 45 pistol taper crimp die, adjust it correctly.... and presto, no more worries!

[blackthorn]

My understanding is that Lee's FCD (carbide for handguns) was designed to make sure all "jacketed" ammunition would feed reliably. If you have a handgun that does not need a cast bullet that is over "standard" size, the carbide FCD will work just as well as if the cast bullet were jacketed! If, however, as is often the case with cast bullets, your firearm's dimensions require a cast bullet that is a bit over "standard" the carbide FCD is not going to make you at all happy, happy, happy! I would conclude, therefore that the carbide FCD when used with jacketed bullets (for which it was designed) will work very well---with cast bullets (maybe) not so much---as with so many things involving cast----depends!

[35remington]

Testimonials of uniform adulation this thread is not. It may be advertising, but it is advertising that is a bit less rosy and much more inclusive than that printed by Lee.

[robertbank]

"I guess the real question is if the FCD is such great thing how come we managed to load billions of rounds before it was even invented."

I love this "logic" - you can apply it to most anything. I used to walk five miles a day to school, and people walked billions of miles before the advent of automobiles, so why use an automobile? The real issue is whether the Lee Precision handgun FCD makes sense. Since a small vocal minority dislike the very mention of it, we get these reoccurring threads. It promotes uniformity and reliability, especially with semi-auto pistols. That is why it is so popular and why the large majority like using it. For boolits it may be a step backwards and swage down an over SAAMI spec boolit.

Have you ever done a survey to justify your `small minority comment`` or are you back to reading some article. I have twe FCD, one in 9MM and one in .45acp. Both do the same thing. The carbide ring at the bottom of the die swags the case down to SAMMI specs for a jacketed bullet. Unfortunately, I shoot cast bullets sized .356 and .452. When loaded in a sized case they create a slight bulge in the case which the FCD swages down to a nice smooth case. When it does t swags down the bullet. Being an engineer you know two things can not occupy the same space at the same time.

A good friend of mine found his .45acp bullets were loose in the case after using the FCD as the die swagged the bullets down while at the same time the brass case rebounded to the sizing somewhat. He had some instances of bullet set back which finished his use of the die.

As some have commented, if you are shooting at five yards there really is no affect on accuracy, at 20 yards I have had bullets tumble and guns shoot patterns. My Dillon crimping dies perform very well and my cartridges feed like butter. If I had a gun with excessively tight chambers, requiring lead bullets with diameters of .355 or .451 I would just get rid of them or use the FCD. Removing the carbide ring found on the FCD just turns the die into a regular taper crimp die of so so quality, why bother.

Take Care

Bob
ps What equipment do you use to widen the diameter of the carbide ring. I missed that info.

[robertbank]

:) Of all the hand wringing and fretting and arguing about the Lee FCD for the 45 ACP... there is a simple solution. Just get a 45 pistol taper crimp die, adjust it correctly.... and presto, no more worries!

Perfect solution. Works for 9MM as well.

Take Care

Bob

[noylj]

Personally, those that hate the FCD will not be swayed and those that love it will not swayed.
The taper crimp die will not get rid to the problem that the FCD is made to take care of. If all cases were the same, there would be reason to even invent the FCD.
For myself, I had some .45 cases not chamber because of a raised ridge just like in the Lee picture with the Bulge Buster. I use the FCDs with the Bulge Buster, and NOT on the loading press for crimping, so all cases are "ironed out" before even resizing. Using a proper size expander, I have no bullet swaging.
For 9mm, I use the 9mm MAK FCD and run all my 9x19 and 9x21 cases through it with the bulge buster. I had one, just the one, 9x19 case with the raised ridge lock-up a P-08 Luger and I had to take it to a 'smith for disassembly to make me look into never having a 9mm case again with a raised ridge.

[35remington]

Yet somehow if the LFCD never existed 99.9 percent of handloaders would produce perfect ammo anyway.

I guess the rest who don't know how to adjust or use dies would just have to give up. How did this tiny fraction of handloaders ever get along without it? A strange godsend indeed.

One of life's eternal mysteries I don't waste much time pondering.

[prs]

In my immediate family, for which I am the supplier of rounds, there are 9 fire arms that use 45 Colt including a Derringer, 2 lever rifles, and the others single action colt clones. None of them need the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die to feed/chamber and function every time. Since my boolits for 45 Colts either drop at or just over .454" or I lube in a .454 die, there may well be good reason for me to NOT consider the CFCD for my 45 Colt rounds. I also provide the ammo for my 45ACP pistols and they also feed and function reliably with boolits lubed in a .452" die, so again, the CFCD for that round is limited to re-conditioning out of round (stepped on) cases or dented case heads via the bulge buster device, very rare service indeed. I load for two 40S&W pistols, my Glock 23 and what ever my daughter's boy friend tries to shoot. Again, both pistols have a generous chamber and no need to swage the .401 tumble lubed boolits; but I get use of the CFCD in the bulge buster and have used its taper crimp part in a spare powder through die to crimp in separate station without the swage. My Python revolver also accepts my un-post sized ammo, but again the trick to use the crimp insert in another larger die provides some benefit. My other cartridges are loaded with three die sets and crimped separately, again no issues. I have noticed that all of my CFCDs have size rings that are slightly larger than the die ring in the full length re-size dies, yet I have been told by others that their samples are equal of diameter.

prs

[jmort]

"Have you ever done a survey to justify your `small minority comment`"

No, you did and the results are crystal clear, 2/3 yea and 1/3 nay:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?106715-Lee-Factory-Crimp-die-for-Handgun-Cartridges-and-Cast-Bullets

So do do sellers who provide buyer/user reviews/ratings, like Midway:

.45 ACP 76 total owner/user reviews. 69 5/5 stars
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/716704/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die-45-acp-45-auto-rim
9mm 53 total reviews 44 5/5 star
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/557190/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die-9mm-luger
.40/10mm 34 total reviews and 32 5/5 star

Few products are so highly rated by owner/users. No one disputes that over SAAMI spec booilts can be swaged down by the handgun FCD. Then it is not a good idea. But the idea that is bad per se is idiotic. Also, I've never understood why non-users and persons who never used one care so much about people who use the handgun FCD and are happy with it. I will disagree with those who categorically dismiss the handgun FCD. It has a place and works well as a crimp die if properly sized for the application. It promotes uniformity and reliability, and that is a good thing. In some applications it is a bad idea as noted through-out this thread.

[35remington]

If properly sized for the application........

And there's the rub. If it isn't don't use it.

But the unquestioned fact is that it has never been indispensable in producing ammo. The truth of that has been long acknowledged by anyone that truly knows how to reload.

Uniformity and reliability can be had without using it. And using it where not appropriate results in nonuniformity and decreased reliability along with a potential safety hazard.

It is up to the individual to discern if this is occurring and to discontinue use when not appropriate. In any reasonable discussion of its utility we should be expecting the user to fulfill that reasonable expectation through his own tests of the die's effect on his ammo.

[dkf]

Yeah sounds like the reviewers on Midway know what they are talking about. LOL.


This die rocks !!!! it produces a outstanding factory crimp that will not damage the case, and it also sizes the case and bullet both when it enters the die and again as the cartridge leaves the die.

Yep resizing the bullet is great. The round still fires, so what if it is not accurate.


I first began using the Lee crimp die when I started loading the 357 Sig round. I was so impressed by how it functioned, I have since replaced my existing crimp die with this brand in all of the calibers I load. I especially like the way it crimps rounds without a crimping groove, essentially creating one during the crimp operation. This is important with a round like the 357 Sig, to prevent bullet setback and possible increased pressure.

What he describes is a good way to totally screw the already little neck tension the .357sig has. You should never deform the bullet with a taper crimp, especially on the .357sig.

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

[robertbank]

"Have you ever done a survey to justify your `small minority comment`"

No, you did and the results are crystal clear, 2/3 yea and 1/3 nay:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?106715-Lee-Factory-Crimp-die-for-Handgun-Cartridges-and-Cast-Bullets

So do do sellers who provide buyer/user reviews/ratings, like Midway:

.45 ACP 76 total owner/user reviews. 69 5/5 stars
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/716704/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die-45-acp-45-auto-rim
9mm 53 total reviews 44 5/5 star
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/557190/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die-9mm-luger
.40/10mm 34 total reviews and 32 5/5 star

Few products are so highly rated by owner/users. No one disputes that over SAAMI spec booilts can be swaged down by the handgun FCD. Then it is not a good idea. But the idea that is bad per se is idiotic. Also, I've never understood why non-users and persons who never used one care so much about people who use the handgun FCD and are happy with it. I will disagree with those who categorically dismiss the handgun FCD. It has a place and works well as a crimp die if properly sized for the application. It promotes uniformity and reliability, and that is a good thing. In some applications it is a bad idea as noted through-out this thread.


So what i so idiotic about being concerned about swagging down bullets again. The FCD is supposed to be used to crimp cartridges. It maybe good for other things unrelated to the crimping function but it isn`t marketed as a case saver it is marketed as a crimping die. I would like to hear of one instance where swagging down a bullet to less than the desired diameter is a good thing particularly when we are dealing with lead bullets. Worse when it happens to plated bullets with their thin jackets - my experience with 230 gr plated .45acp bullets. What do you think the SAMMI specs are for lead 9MM boolits. Most here would size their 9MM boolits either .356 or .357.

35Remington makes a very good point. If you know how to reload ammunition you really don`t need the die. When it comes to 9MM cases with the Glock bulge if you really run into a lot of them get a sizing die that removes the bulge, and there are ones out that will or just toss those cases in the recycle bin. We pay about $20 per thousand for 9MM cases once fired up here. I would expect less south of the border.

You have not told us how you increase the diameter of the carbide ring alluded to earlier nor why you would bother.

Take Care

Bob