Still getting lots of leading with TL bullets

[medicstimpy]

Hi, again....

Thanks again for all the previous advice. The two molds I' ve been having trouble casting with are getting better. Starting to get less rejects with both the Lee 230RN TL and the 38 105SWC's.

The problem is we are still getting lots of leading with LLA and all the bullets. Even the 45 200LSWC-TL's and 9mm 124LRN TL.

Tried seeing if there was a difference with water drop vs air cooled. Tried sizing to .357 (for 9mm) vs .356 and .452 vs .451 for 45. Tried different loads of 231 and even tried different depths. All to no avail. They all produce a lot of leading. We even tried adding tin/antoimony solder to increase the alloy.

Is it maybe the whole batch of WW ingots were no good and should start over?

Didn't have this much leading before when I was just air cooling and not resizing. But that was only one batch that was ok. The rest were cast by a friend years ago.

The only thing I haven't tried yet is changing the lube to something other than LLA. Two guys have been using that stuff for years and can't figure out why we are getting so much leading now.

[Castinoff]

Hmmmm...........tough prob to solve but I would hazard a guess that it has something to do with your lead alloy. I've never had a prob with LLA before using wheel weights only. I recently ordered the Lee 9mm TL124LRN mold myself so I'll be on the lookout for leading. Let us know if you solve your prob & how you did it.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Hmmmm...........tough prob to solve but I would hazard a guess that it has something to do with your lead alloy. I've never had a prob with LLA before using wheel weights only. I recently ordered the Lee 9mm TL124LRN mold myself so I'll be on the lookout for leading. Let us know if you solve your prob & how you did it.

You didn't say anything about boolit fit. What diameter do your moulds cast? Have you slugged your barrels? Which alloy are you using? Boolit fit isn't the only thing, but it is the biggest thing.

[jonk]

I have the same problem with Lee tumble lube molds. Their standard molds, even if I only tumble lube, no problem.

I have a theory going that the bullets are actually TOO hard- the tumble lube grooves are spalling off as they are so thin. I"m going to try doing a batch with pure lead and pushing to only 600 fps or so, even if it doesn't operate the action, and see what happens.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Another question. Have you been shooting jacketed bullets? If there is ANY copper fouling in the bore it will "grab" the lead & produce leading in hurry. Soak the barrel with some Sweets 7.62 for about 15 minutes & scrub with tight patches then with a bronze brush, then more patches. Repeat if nesseccary. Many times you can't even see light copper fouling with the naked eye. If the 1st patch you run through after soaking come out blue-green there is copper fouling.

[Three44s]

I have not cast for auto pistols yet just many revolvers. But I recall reading about using Linotype for autos ...... and I think it was Dean Grennel who suggested it.

And speaking about LLA:

I would thin it with mineral spirits ...... yes, thin it.

Run your slugs through the thinned LLA TWICE or ???? more??? ........ dry between apps. set the slugs on wax paper bases down ...... you want the lube EVERYWHERE else than the base so that's my take on it.

If it were me ..... I would look at "fill out" ....... I find that if the melt is too cool or not enough tin ....... fill out suffers ...... and a even a section of a boolit not filled could cause leading trouble.

And my perrenial recommendation to fellow lead shooters: Buy a book from Beartooth Bullets on shooting lead bullets. At fourteen bucks postage paid (the last time I looked) its a treasure trove of info FOR CHEAP!

Best of luck in your endeavor!

Three 44s

[Leftoverdj]

Didn't have this much leading before when I was just air cooling and not resizing.

Then don't size and don't quench.

[Bass Ackward]

Yo medic! Sorry, couldn't resist.

Nobody but nobody wants to come out and bad mouth Lee Liquid Alox cause as soon as you do, someone else will come out and tell you that it works SO WELL that they want to be buried with a bottle of the stuff.

LLA works .... until it no longer can. If your load produces obturation in any significant manner to use up the small quantity of lube present .... you will get leading .... JUST .... like any other lube that you can use. The problem is in the amount you need of it to do the job.

I find LLA is easier to use in a consistent bore condition where the seal of the bullet is not broken (rifle like) compared to say wheelguns simply because your understanding of bullet hardness or using a GC must be SO MUCH more precise to "successfully" use LLA.

LAA probably has the narrowest margin of error for mistakes than any other lube I have ever used to include pure plain old beeswax. But NRA formula lube which is 50 / 50 beeswax and Alox has probably the widest applications for pressure ranges and preventing leading. And it is my first recommendation for general cast bullet shooting. Of coarse this is my opinion.

[Maven]

Could this also be an issue of excess velocity/rpm's? E.g., I have a ~240gr. Lee tumble lube SWC for my .44mag. that doesn't led at speeds up to 1,000fps with Lee liq. alox or Felix Lube. However, raise the velocity a bit and the area around the forcing cone gets a nice layer of lead deposited.

[Shiloh]

Never had a problem with leading.

I use the Lee .45 200 gr. SWCTL with WW run around 800 fps. These are sized at .452 they cycle and are quite accurate from my 1911. I use 3.9-4.0 gr of Bullseye.

How fast are you running them?? :castmine:

[Bass Ackward]

Could this also be an issue of excess velocity/rpm's? E.g., I have a ~240gr. Lee tumble lube SWC for my .44mag. that doesn't led at speeds up to 1,000fps with Lee liq. alox or Felix Lube. However, raise the velocity a bit and the area around the forcing cone gets a nice layer of lead deposited.



Paul,

RPMs in a forcing cone before it starts rotating. :grin: I get the joke.

What I find is that normally lubed bullet designs have grease grooves that are deeper than the rifling is tall. What that means is there is always space for the hydrolic pressure to equalize around the bullet 360 degrees so that lube can be used if and where it is needed until it is gone or the bullet exits.

With LLA on a tumble lube design, you better have a good bore. Cause once that rifling cuts into the bullet, lube is trapped between each set of rifling. So while there may be plenty of it between one set of rifling, it may be used up somewhere else around the bullet and begin to lead.

I would say Paul, that if you begin pushing your bullet at 1000 fps, you have just enough pressure to obturate your bullet slightly more than the lube was controlling and you would either need a slightly smaller bullet or a slightly harder bullet to resist the obturation or a slower powder to bring success back. My guess anyway. It's no different than any other lube, it just doesn't like pressure.

For handguns bullets, I don't think it's possible to have TOO much lube, so I prefer other forms of lube to or in addition to LLA.

[Maven]

Bass, I wasn't asking about excess velocity with a TL bullet for myself, but as a factor contributing to medicstimpy's problem. Liquid alox works OK for my TL bullet, but lube applied via the Ly. #450 works better, at least for me.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, I wasn't asking about excess velocity with a TL bullet for myself, but as a factor contributing to medicstimpy's problem. Liquid alox works OK for my TL bullet, but lube applied via the Ly. #450 works better, at least for me.


Paul,

Sorry.

[jrfixer]

I found with the 9mm I size to .358 for my Sig P239. In order to do this using my Lee 6 cav mould I had to open it up with valve compound and beagaled .002 with copper tape. They are lube with a mix of JPW(90%) and LLA(10%). I load these 125gr bullets with 4 gr's of unique with a OAL of 1.165. No leading at all!

For my Sig P220 .45cal, I size to .452, lube with same mix, load with 5gr's of unique with OAL 1.210. I did not need to do any mods to the mould.

JR

[imashooter2]

Didn't have this much leading before when I was just air cooling and not resizing. But that was only one batch that was ok. The rest were cast by a friend years ago.


I usually water drop for the convenience of it. I've used quenched bullets with complete success in every platform I've tried until just recently. I moved to a Lee 358-150-1R for my ICORE bullet in .38 Special and was getting horrendous leading. It plated the front of the cylinder so thick it would bind the gun up after 150 shots and the rifling just disappeared. On a suggestion, I heat treated some back to soft and tried again. I was shocked by the difference. It's the first time softer has ever been the answer for me.

[lathesmith]

So far I have not had any luck using Lee TL bullets in a revolver. I tried them in my 44 mag SBH, with severe leading after only a couple of cylinderfuls. This @700-900 fps. OTOH, they seem to work fine in my Ruger 96/44 carbine @ 900fps or so. There seems to be something about that barrel/cylinder gap that is causing the problem....
Like Bass Ackward, I usually use the 50/50 soft lube for most everything, because it works with nearly all velocities and pressure levels. That hard lube and hard bullets are fine for higher pressure/high velocity loads, but this combo tends to perform poorly and lead severely as velocity gets slower. I didn't believe this at first, but it is easy to prove to yourself that soft lubes with softer bullets are the way to go for sub-1000fps loads.
This is another reason I love the Star sizer. I can cast up 5000-8000 bullets, keep them in sealed containers so they don't oxidize, and then lube/size them just before use. This way I can keep large numbers of bullets on hand for an indefinite period of time, and I don't have to worry about lubed bullets getting all oxidized and icky before I can use them.
lathesmith

[cohutt]

ALox and soft boolits? +1

TL works for me in 44 45 & 9mm. I have an abundance of pure lead and alloys (including wheel wieghts) are harder to come by in comparison. Becasue of this i worked backwards into softer boolits, blending ww& pure.
For 9,, 50/50 is about right in G17 w/lone wolf barrel, 900-1000 fps
For 45 a softer alloy works as well, about 60/40 pure to ww. unique/titegroup @ 800-850fps works great in Kimber
For 44 same, 50/50 in easy going loads pushed 800-850 fps no issues in SW629 and Ruger SBH

[Leftoverdj]

If I'd ever had any problems with LLA, microgroove bullets, and leading, I might have a solution, but I haven't. They've always worked fine for me with the most basic possible approach, aircooled WW, tumble lube and load. At times, I've sized, but only with sizers that barely touch normal bullets. My purpose has been to catch the occasional oversized cast. Never had a TL mould for the .45 ACP, but I do in .32 and .38, and use both in revolvers and autoloaders. Shot plenty of conventional design bullets lubed with LLA through .45s and never had any trouble from them, either.

[Ghugly]

I wish I could help. LLA has been idiot proof for me. I just went to the range and went through a couple of hundred 429421 plinkers that I loaded about as quick and dirty as you could imagine. Air cooled WW, no sizing, tossed into a baggie and squirted with LLA, tossed into a box and left to dry as they landed. Loaded over 5gr of Trail Boss, I'm guessing 800fps, more or less. Not a speck of leading and shot great. I've got a Lee TL mould that I've used as well, no leading there either. The only leading I've had has been with store bought hard lubed bullets, and I've scrubbed out my fair share of lead. LLA has worked so well with all my home cast boolits that I've had no reason to try anything else. I've approached 1000fps, but never exceeded it, so, for all I know, LLA may go all to hell at higher velocities.

[medicstimpy]

THanks for all the advice and tips. it is appreciated.

We haven't had a chance to chrono them yet. I cast some regular band lube 9mm and am going to try them with and without the GC. They came from the same batch of lead so hopefully we can eliminate one or two of the variables.

As for loads, the two lighter loads were too light and wouldn't cycle the gun properly so am kind of stuck with my mid-load of 231.

The friend who is complaining the most of the leading problem of late claims he uses the same bullets in 2 cavity molds with LAA for years and only my bullets are bad. But they were his ingots.

Maybe a slower burning powder might help. I know he doesn't bother with 231 since he has stockpiles of other powders. Maybe that's why he never got as much leading before. I do know his 9mm TC Lee TL bullets still leaded my barrel just as much. So maybe it is the powder choice.

[Bass Ackward]

The friend who is complaining the most of the leading problem of late claims he uses the same bullets in 2 cavity molds with LAA for years and only my bullets are bad. But they were his ingots.


medic,

One problem with a bullet is that it must carry all the lube it needs. And it needs to do that for your gun and his and the next guys. So a TL design that has a shoulder on the front acts like a scraper to remove fouling ahead of it much like a cow catcher worked on an old train. In this fouling, was precious lube left from the last bullet.

There are times I want this, like in really cold weather where lube will thicken and freeze. But I also design more lube carrying capacity for it and I use more sloping angles to help it get out of the groove too. But all TL designs should be olgivals (IMO) and LEE would have more satisfied customers as there would be less problems with leading. Might not shoot any better, just less problems with leading and complaints for lube. Sharp shoulder designs just need to carry enough lube and this is not an advantage with a TL design.

[Leftoverdj]

The friend who is complaining the most of the leading problem of late claims he uses the same bullets in 2 cavity molds with LAA for years and only my bullets are bad. But they were his ingots.

Maybe a slower burning powder might help. I know he doesn't bother with 231 since he has stockpiles of other powders. Maybe that's why he never got as much leading before. I do know his 9mm TC Lee TL bullets still leaded my barrel just as much. So maybe it is the powder choice.

More likely it is the bullet size. It ain't uncommon for two different moulds to drop bullets of slightly different sizes. Undersized bullets will cause leading in a hurry.