.357 158 LSWC/8.0 grains Unique

[Big Steve]

Hello Folks,

I have been handloading for many, many years now, although I took a brief sabbatical up until about 2 years ago when I started back. My favorite calibers to load/shoot are .45 acp and .357 magnum (although I carry 40 S&W's at work daily for the last 20 years, .357 for 10 years prior to that).

I have been loading my 158 lswc hardcast over 8.0 grains of Unique and a CCI small pistol primer (not magnum),and shooting them out of my Smith 66 and my Ruger LCR. Accuracy is good, leading is average to minimal, and most importantly I see NO signs of over pressure. Recoil feels appropriate, primers look good, cases fall out freely, brass is fine. I am very satisfied with this load and have no intention of going heavier.

My concern is that MOST data I see only goes up to 7-7.5 grains of Unique for this bullet. I actually started at 6 grains and worked up to this because I was not just trying to load a pipsqueak load,(I shoot .38 special for my light loads) I wanted a fairly stiff cast field load. I have seen a FEW load recipes calling for 8 grains, but the general consensus seems to be that this is a very heavy load. I just don't see it. Am I missing something here? Should this load be considered unsafe????

Thoughts Please !!!!!



Thanks,

Big Steve

[paul h]

With revolver cartriges, you typically don't see pressure signs until massively overloaded. As I recall the 357 magnum is rated as a 30,000 psi cartridge, though the original rating was 40,000 psi. You typically don't get pressure signs until 60,000 psi. What level of pressure the gun can handle varies between guns as there are some very compact 357's that are not designed for over 30,000 psi, and there are 357's built on 44/45 sized guns that can digest the 40,000 psi loads with no problems.

Guns can fail in several ways. The most dramatic is a catastrophic failure (the gun breaking into pieces), and this can be caused by either a single massive overload, or repeated overloads that lead to a fatique failure of the metal. The other failure is the gun simply wearing out from the heavy recoil of repeated overloads.

7 gr of unique should be pushing right around 1000 fps. If you want more velocity, you'd be better off going to a slower powder such as 2400 or H-110/W-296.

Unique is a great powder, one of my favorites. But as with any powder, going over published maximum loads is not recomended, for good reason.

[Rex]

My Lyman reloading manual #45 shows 8 grain Unique as an acceptable load with a 158 grain cast bullet.
I believe that load is quite OK. In my 4" 686 over my chrony 7 grains of Unique gives me 1100 fps.
Rex

[Wally]

I use that load and have for years in my Marlin 1894C, a Ruger Blackhawk & a Model 27.

[Larry Gibson]

With revolver cartriges, you typically don't see pressure signs until massively overloaded

Paul h is quite correct. FYI; I pressure tested the 150 gr 358477 over 7.5 gr Alliant Unique (Contender test barrel with Oehler M43 PBL). SAAMI MAP for the 357 Magnum is 35,000 psi with peizo-transducer or strain gauge. The tested load in WW cases with WSP primers had a MAP of 37,300 psi(M43). That is 3,700 psi over the SAAMI MAP. The lowest psi of the 10 shot test string was still 500 psi over the SAAMI MAP. Just for your info; what you do with it is up to you.

Larry Gibson

[HiVelocity]

Big Steve,

Print out this article, attached, I read it often when loading both .38 Special and .357 Magnum. Just food for thought.

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/High%20Speed%20.38%20Special%20Loads.pdf

HV

[fredj338]

Data is data, what is important is the load safe in YOUR gun. IMO, yes, 8gr is pushing hard on max, depending on your gun. Chamber size, cyl gap, bore dia, all affect pressures.

[Big Steve]

Thanks Guys,

Although I like this load a lot. I reckon I'll shoot 'em up this weekend in my S&W686 and then start loading the more popular, and moderate 7.0 grains recipe. I would just stick with the 8.0 but considering I usually shoot a 66, SP101, and LCR I reckon I'll bump it down a notch. I reckon I knew I was pushing the envelope, but I just needed y'all to push me back to reality. 66's are too hard to come by these days to tear one up over 1 grain of powder. Thank Y'all for the speedy responses.

Big Steve

[opos]

When I started using Unique in the 357..some years ago I was told that while pressure signs may not become evident until things are seriously over load but that the pressure curve of Unique can be hard on the gun...sort of like with a Garand...it's not only about the velocity or bullet weight but about the pressure curve that bends and breaks things...I love Unique...I load a lot of it but I'm a little cautious with it..I'm an old guy with lots of aches and pains and don't like heavy loads so I seldom exceed published charges and am usually below max as long as accuracy is ok...I shoot a lot of 125 grain lead (softer at a 12 hardness) with Unique....and a ton of it in 45 Colt and for me staying well within published limits works well....like a 327 small journal flat top piston motor I ran in my hotrod pick up...it would take the revs but it was hard on things...never showed any signs of stress but I know it was there any time I really kicked it's butt.

[Shooter973]

I load 7gr. of Unique under 150-158gr. cast bullets as my main 357 load. I shoot this load out of about a dozen handguns and a couple of rifles. Been shooting this load for 40 plus years...
I found that it shoots exactly to the fixed sights on my 3 inch GP-100... Does everything I want done in ALL my 357's and works out to 1000 loads per pound of powder... Great load without stressing things at all...

[williamwaco]

IMO - 8 grains is too hot.

Pleased back off.
You will eventually "shake them loose".

[357shooter]

Hello Folks,

I have been handloading for many, many years now, although I took a brief sabbatical up until about 2 years ago when I started back. My favorite calibers to load/shoot are .45 acp and .357 magnum (although I carry 40 S&W's at work daily for the last 20 years, .357 for 10 years prior to that).

I have been loading my 158 lswc hardcast over 8.0 grains of Unique and a CCI small pistol primer (not magnum),and shooting them out of my Smith 66 and my Ruger LCR. Accuracy is good, leading is average to minimal, and most importantly I see NO signs of over pressure. Recoil feels appropriate, primers look good, cases fall out freely, brass is fine. I am very satisfied with this load and have no intention of going heavier.

My concern is that MOST data I see only goes up to 7-7.5 grains of Unique for this bullet. I actually started at 6 grains and worked up to this because I was not just trying to load a pipsqueak load,(I shoot .38 special for my light loads) I wanted a fairly stiff cast field load. I have seen a FEW load recipes calling for 8 grains, but the general consensus seems to be that this is a very heavy load. I just don't see it. Am I missing something here? Should this load be considered unsafe????

Thoughts Please !!!!!



Thanks,

Big Steve

The first clue to the answer is when you stated that most load data went to 7-7.5, and yet you loaded to 8 grains. Yes, it's too hot (like others stated).

A really accurate load would be 5.4 grains of Unique.

[jmort]

Unique works best at the mid to high end, but I would choose a different powder if I wanted to get beyond what 7 grains of unique will do in .357.

[rockshooter]

I would suggest switching to 12.0 to 12.5 gr of 2400. This will give you the velocity you want with no real risk of pressure problems.
Loren

[Rex]

Rockshooter lists real good load with the 2400. I like that one a lot. The only reason I don't use it more is the powder availability thing and 12 grains as opposed to 6 grains. Were 2400 readily available I'd use it all the time.
Rex

[jonp]

I would suggest switching to 12.0 to 12.5 gr of 2400. This will give you the velocity you want with no real risk of pressure problems.
Loren

I've used this load for some time. It's a good one out of a Blackhawk. Unique is a great powder but if your wanting more velocity with a Magnum then 2400/H110/W296 is the way to go.

[Beerd]

I don't know, 8 grains of Unique could be a little warm .

I started this handloading hobby with the 38 Special / .357 mag.
For some reason that I can't remember, the first powder I bought was a pound of Hercules HERCO.
Since then I have tried a bunch of others, from Bullseye to H110, but I seem to keep coming back to my original choice.

And Big Steve, Welcome to the forum!
..

[robg]

8.5 grains of true blue works well and meters better than unique

[Big Steve]

I have found SOME data that stated 8.0 grains as max (and even one with 8.3), but most of it seems to be older data. I don't know if the loads in recent data has backed off over the years due to lawyers/liability or due to powders changing somewhat over the years, or both. I am backing off to 7.0 grains and I will wait til I can get some 2400 for the hotter loads. I reckon the reason I was pushing the envelope with Unique is the lack of 2400 in my area (I have none and am having trouble getting it right now, but I am sure that will eventually change). That being said, I am backing off to 7.0 grains, mainly because of y'alls suggestions and the fact that I have a taste for the smaller framed .357's such as 66's, SP101's and LCR's (even though I have stronger .357's). BTW, what is Y'alls take on the shrinking charges over the years. I have always had a penchant for the maximum side, which makes no sense because of my love of K frames and such. So far I've stayed out of trouble, but I'm sure I've added unnecessary stress to my weapons at times. Actually, my 66 (30 years old now) is still as tight as the day I bought it. Maybe due to the fact that I sparingly shoot full house loads, but when I do, I like FULL HOUSE LOADS. Thank Y'all again for the advice and reality check.

Big Steve

[cs86]

Does anyone use much for H110, I was surprised to see how fine the powder was. I recently picked up a pound and worked up some loads using 170gr slugs, I think the 358429 design, starting with the low end working up to the high. There wasn't much of a powder difference between the low and high end with Lyman stating 15gr for the max, and most accurate. When I went out and shot it I was shocked at the heavy recoil, but everything seemed fine. I was looking for brass to be hard to extract but it wasn't. I was a little leery to keep shooting, but I fallowed the book and brass seemed to be fine. Anyone else notice this?

[paul h]

H-110 is my goto powder for maximum loads in magnum handgun rounds. It provides excellent accuracy and top velocitywithin the design pressures of the gun. It cannot be safely downloaded hence there being little difference between starting and max loads.

I put a alot of 2400 through my 357 blackhawk following the advice of sages from years gone by. Then I finally tried H-110 and found I got better accuracy. If you want to launch 170-200's in the 357, H-110 is your huckleberry.

[kawasakifreak77]

This is great! I've been looking for a load to toss a 158 SWC about 1100 fps for an all around load & I happen to have almost a full jug of hercules unique on the shelf.

The info here just answered a couple questions for me, including what powder to burn for full house loads. This place is great. :)

[Big Steve]

And Big Steve, Welcome to the forum!
..[/QUOTE]

Thank You Beerd! You guys and this site is gonna' be fun, glad to be here.

[fredj338]

Does anyone use much for H110, I was surprised to see how fine the powder was. I recently picked up a pound and worked up some loads using 170gr slugs, I think the 358429 design, starting with the low end working up to the high. There wasn't much of a powder difference between the low and high end with Lyman stating 15gr for the max, and most accurate. When I went out and shot it I was shocked at the heavy recoil, but everything seemed fine. I was looking for brass to be hard to extract but it wasn't. I was a little leery to keep shooting, but I fallowed the book and brass seemed to be fine. Anyone else notice this?

The wt of the powder charge is added to the wt of the bullet & increases rcoil. The perceived recoil is also greater because of the muzzle blast. H110 is a great powder but only for max effort loads. These days I prefer 2400 for my magnums & all get lead bullets exclusively.

[Boolseye]

I'm liking 14.5 grains of 296 under a 158 gr SWC w/GC. Around 1200 fps. Feels good in my 66.

[paul h]

The wt of the powder charge is added to the wt of the bullet & increases rcoil. The perceived recoil is also greater because of the muzzle blast. H110 is a great powder but only for max effort loads. These days I prefer 2400 for my magnums & all get lead bullets exclusively.

I seriously doubt anyone can feel the additional 3 gr of H-110 vs. 2400 (15 gr vs 12) between the two powders. An extra 100-200 fps, you will definately feel that. Another difference in fealt recoil is 2400 has a snappier feel as it's a faster burning powder, much more noticeable in the big bores 475's and 500's.

[Outpost75]

Something which hasn't been mentioned up to now, is that when you load relatively fast-burning, double-based powders such as Unique in the .357, you are subjecting the face of the barrel extension which protrudes through the frame opening, which receives the direct blast from the cylinder, to increased heat checking and erosion. This is because the peak pressure of Unique and similar fast burners in the .357 occurs just as the bullet is transitioning from the cylinder into the barrel.

If you have shot your revolver alot with heavy loads of Unique, such as 8 grains in the .357, approaching 1200 fps from a 6" barrel, the results will be obvious, in that the face of the barrel extension will no longer be "flat", but will be eroded into a concave "dish" shape, and you will also see increased forcing cone erosion, and possibly flame cutting of the top strap.

It is quite likely that had you measured the barrel-cylinder gap when your revolver was new, that after having fired several thousand such loads, you will notice increased cylinder gap and lower velocity. Given that his load very likely generates higher than normal pressure as well, you will experience increased cylinder end shake.

Fixing all of this requires at minimum, setting the barrel back a thread to re-establish proper gap, refacing the barrel and recutting the forcing cone. You probably also will need to either stretch the crane or fit an endshake bushing to re-establish proper headspace. If the crane is still properly aligned and the cylinder is in time, you are lucky.

But shooting your way into a $500-600 gunsmith bill to repair a serviceable gun you have shaken apart because you wanted to feel your hand sting and your ears ring and save a few pennies over loading by using an extra grain or two of the powder you already had seems like false economy.

Sorry for the rant, but unless you are doing your own gunsmithing and have the tools and skill to do it, it seems pointless to me.

[Cadillo]

I can tell you from personal experience what you will do to your Model 66 over time. I carried one as a duty gun for a couple of years. It was my own personal weapon, something that the old agency no longer allows. All was well as long as they allowed us to practice and qualify with .38 wadcutters, but after the Newhall (sp) incident, they required us to qualify with our issued for duty Magnum loads. Once the K frame went on a steady diet of magnums, it developed end shake, and the crane or yolk went out of alignment, which progressed to the point that the cylinder began to drag on the rear of the barrel extension.

I have since acquired the tools and know how required to address these issues, but the insurmountable problem is that parts for these older guns are now nearly non-existent. Just try to find a barrel for a pinned and recessed Model 66. Good luck!

If not properly cared for that marvel of old age craftsmanship will be relegated to the either the scrap heap or the boneyard for stripping of any serviceable parts.

I love Old Smith Double Actions and Old Model Ruger Single Actions, but parts are now as rare as virtue in modern politics.

[Big Steve]

Outpost,

Good points and warning heeded. I can assure you that I fired exactly 12 of the 8.0 grains Unique/158 LSWC through my 66, 10 in the SP101, and 5 in a 357 LCR. My questioning of the load was because of the lack of pressure signs. I found load data going up to 8.3 grains and worked my way from 6 grains to 8 without any obvious signs of pressure.

My fears were that 1) data above 7 grains was old and 2) almost everybody on this site advised against 8.0 grains. That's good enough for me. I wouldn't have asked if I were not concerned or open to opinions.

I only have 50 that I loaded after testing the first few. I probably will shoot those 50 in my 686 only because of the lack of pressure signs , but, from now on it will be no more than 7.0 grains Unique/158 LSWC. Everyone seems to like this load and according to previous post most folks are getting about 1000 fps. That's good enough for a moderate field load. When I passed through 7.0 grains on my way up to 8.0 it felt very light to me. I don't have a chronograph, but this situation has convinced me to get one now.

Thank You Sir for the input.

Big Steve

[Big Steve]

Cadillo,

Yup. Went through Basic Training with this very 66. That was back when we carried deputy owned sidearms. Carried her for 7 years. Started carrying 40 S&W GLOCKs 20 years ago when we went to issued weapons.

We always qualified with .38's luckily. I rarely shoot full house magnums through my .357's so she's still nice and tight. Don't worry. I will keep her safe with .38s and reduced .357's. Only very rarely will I let her run with the big dogs.

I can assure you though that with a coupla thousand .38's and about 4-5 hundred magnums that she's digested, she's as tight as the day I bought her.

Big Steve

[Outpost75]

I am relieved you only assembled a few rounds. Back in the day I ruined a perfectly good S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman firing that exact load, and took the gun to the S&W factory when I went to Armorer's School. Factory service dept. supervisor Chet Grondalski took once look at the gun and called Archie Dubia to look at it and they both chewed me out. "No f_¢#ing way this was factory loads, dammit you guys read all that Elmer Keith stuff and burn these guns up!"

[Big Steve]

Outpost,

****! If that load can bung up a 28 I'm scared to even shoot those 50 in my 686. Now I'm thinking I'm gonna pull 'em!

[Outpost75]

I shot alot more than 50, more like 1050!

[cs86]

Something which hasn't been mentioned up to now, is that when you load relatively fast-burning, double-based powders such as Unique in the .357, you are subjecting the face of the barrel extension which protrudes through the frame opening, which receives the direct blast from the cylinder, to increased heat checking and erosion. This is because the peak pressure of Unique and similar fast burners in the .357 occurs just as the bullet is transitioning from the cylinder into the barrel.

Trying to digest and learn a little here, but are people saying when using a faster burning powder that you are more subjective to having faster gun wear at max levels? I think its common sense that the gun is going to wear out faster at max levels, but I'm thinking of more detrimental things to the gun that you guys are talking about; gas cutting, gaps increasing, alignment problems. Are the slower burning powders like H110 going to have the same affects at max or even under max levels do to the nature of that powder? This was part of the reason I am a little shy of using H110 as a main powder to target practice with. Unless I want something for hunting that I'm limiting my shooting of a heavy load.

Its been great info. Thanks guys!

[Big Steve]

Good question cs86. Obviously heavy loads will wear a gun out faster than light loads, but I was always under the impression that the slower powders, H110/296, were harder on guns concerning flame cutting and erosion problems. I thought the faster burners were the least damaging at magnum (but within max limits) levels.

Can anybody clear that up ??? Or is there any difference at all concerning these factors?

[Char-Gar]

What do you need to kill with 8/Unique that cannot be killed with 7 - 7.5/Unique? I can see absolutely no reason to push the pressure red line with any load in any firearm, unless there is a need to do so. In 50 plus years of handloading, I have never had such a need or known of anyone who did.

About 1959, I had to hammer open the bolt of a good 300 Weatherby rifle due to a stupid over load of mine. It blew the primer and expanded the case head. There were almost no markings on the head when I got it out.

Worth Palmer, my mentor, gave me such a tail chewing I never did that again.

[Char-Gar]

Trying to digest and learn a little here, but are people saying when using a faster burning powder that you are more subjective to having faster gun wear at max levels? I think its common sense that the gun is going to wear out faster at max levels, but I'm thinking of more detrimental things to the gun that you guys are talking about; gas cutting, gaps increasing, alignment problems. Are the slower burning powders like H110 going to have the same affects at max or even under max levels do to the nature of that powder? This was part of the reason I am a little shy of using H110 as a main powder to target practice with. Unless I want something for hunting that I'm limiting my shooting of a heavy load.

Its been great info. Thanks guys!


Limited the shooting of heavy loads is a good idea for several reasons. First it doesn't over stress the firearm, and second it does not over stress your body.

I have bad arthritis in my shooting hand and tendonitis in my shooting elbow from years of shooting full snort magnum loads in handguns.

These days I shoot mostly 38 Special and 45 ACP/AR unless there is some real world need to shoot something stronger. This is a fairly common experience with long time senior shooters. Best to avoid it if you can.

[Larry Gibson]

Good question cs86. Obviously heavy loads will wear a gun out faster than light loads, but I was always under the impression that the slower powders, H110/296, were harder on guns concerning flame cutting and erosion problems. I thought the faster burners were the least damaging at magnum (but within max limits) levels.

Can anybody clear that up ??? Or is there any difference at all concerning these factors?

That load hits peak psi right at the barrel/cylinder gap. I know because I measure the psi and get a time/pressure trace which makes it easy to measure where the peak psi is in the cylinder/barrel.

I also was a LEO firearms instructor back in the day when K frame S&Ws were the most common LEO sidearm. We also switched from practice WC 38 SPL loads and ran quals with service +P 38s or service 357s. That brought about the demise of the K frame and the intro of the L frame which could handle the full service loads. In a 357 magnum 6.8 - 7 gr Unique under a 150 - 160 gr cast SWC is all that is needed for a service level "magnum" load. Anything above that in a K frame S&W is "overkill".....mostly overkilling the revolver..........

Larry Gibson

[cs86]

What do you need to kill with 8/Unique that cannot be killed with 7 - 7.5/Unique? I can see absolutely no reason to push the pressure red line with any load in any firearm, unless there is a need to do so. In 50 plus years of handloading, I have never had such a need or known of anyone who did.

I don't think we are really debating what a person can kill, and I myself am not trying to push things to the very max. My primary concern to trying H110 or other options was because of accuracy, but if a load is going to beat my gun up is it worth using that kind of load to gain more accuracy. I'm sure each person will have their opinion. I was curios of the different effects between powders at heavier loads. If my gun shoots more accurate with heavier loads I'd rather use a powder that will be easier on the gun.

[Char-Gar]

I don't think we are really debating what a person can kill, and I myself am not trying to push things to the very max. My primary concern to trying H110 or other options was because of accuracy, but if a load is going to beat my gun up is it worth using that kind of load to gain more accuracy. I'm sure each person will have their opinion. I was curios of the different effects between powders at heavier loads. If my gun shoots more accurate with heavier loads I'd rather use a powder that will be easier on the gun.

OK, let me rephrase the question as accuracy seems to be an issue rather than killing power. What do you need to hit with 8/Unique you cannot hit with 7-7.5/Unique.

If the Socratic method isn't working let me just make the point straight out. Running heavy loads through a Smith and Wesson DA handgun when they are not needed is an action that should be questioned on several fronts.

One of the great things about handloading is we can tailor our loading to our real needs. Bruising a handgun and our bodies where there is no need to do so, is something I have done, but won't do again.

Of course, it is your handgun and your body so you can do what you wish with both. I only wanted to posit the question about the necessity to do so. You can take it from here.

[paul h]

You should be able to get a load with unique that is within published parameters that is as accurate as the best load with 2400 or H-110, but at lower velocity. You might have to tailor the alloy and sizing for the unique load, but I'd venture to say if you can chamber a bullet sized .001" over bore dia cast from coww's or say coww/rangescrap 50/50 with a good lube it will be just as accurate as the faster loads.

[jonp]

Speaking to an earlier comment I find that max loads of h110 have a longer and more gentil push recoil than 2400 but less leeway in downloading. Maybe its just me on the felt recoil.

[gwpercle]

I can't say if 8.0 grs is dangerous, it is a heavy load. What I can tell you is when I bought a 357 mag. Ruger Blackhawk, I knew I wanted to reload for it, I had a free source of wheel weights and a big container of Unique so I wrote a letter to Skeeter Skelton ( he was writing a column for Guns & Ammo then ), asking for advice and his favorite load. He replied in a letter " purchase a Lyman mould # 358156, cast of wheel weight metal, size to .357 , use the gas check, a regular primer and 7.5 grains Unique " I did just that and my first group had 3 holes touching and two holes almost touching ...all 5 shots could be covered with a quarter. I was impressed and thats been my Skeeter Skelton favorite cast boolit load ever since. I still have the letter too.
Gary

[Larry Gibson]

gwpercle

You might want to read the pressures I measured (yes that was measured not guestimated or taken from another source) and posted in my 1st post in this thread. 7.5 gr under a 150 gr cast 358477 (I don't know about your 358156 but the is lighter weight than any of the several 358156 I've had or dealt with cast bullets at) is over the SAAMI MAP for the cartridge. Using 8 gr under a heavier cast bullet will put the psi considerably above that. Neither of those loads are "heavy loads".....they are over max loads, especially to be used in a K frame S&W.

Larry Gibson

[Big Steve]

Loaded up a shot a few with 7.0 grains. Moderate load, shot well. Very satisfied. Thanks for all the advice. My 66 thanks you too.

Big Steve