Confused about hardness...

[ImConfused666]

I don't think I need to hear any jokes about that subject. I get enough from the wife....

Anyway, everyone seems to be saying that WW's and #2 alloy are plenty hard enough for the average load. I've just started casting this week. I purchased #2 alloy from Midway and also purchased a Lee hardness testing kit. According to what I see, it has a BHN of about 8. That's nowhere near the 15 that I was expecting. When I tested a commercially made bullet, it did have a BHN of around 14-15. That leaves me wondering if I'm doing something wrong. As a test, I melted down some plumbers lead ingots at a ratio of 9# of lead to 1# of 50/50 bar solder. The results were the same as the #2 alloy. It was probably just a little softer.

I'm looking to load a variety of bullets to start. .43 Spanish, .303 British and 6.5 Carcano.

If my readings are accurate, how do I harden the mix? Do I need to? I plan to use gas checks with the .303 and the 6.5. The .43 will probably be moving at a low enough velocity not to be a problem. It should probably remain below 1,500 fps. The .303 is likely to be in the 1,600-2,000 range and the Carcano in the 1,500 to 1,800 range.

Sorry to be such a pain with a simple question. I've been reloading for at least 15 years. I just never had any reason to want to cast until my latest acquisition of antique shooters...

Thanks for any help.

[Ricochet]

Did you test freshly cast bullets? Takes a while to reach maximum hardness (as you're probably aware.) :mrgreen:

[oneokie]

Most commercial hard cast boolits are 92% lead, 6% Antimony, and 2% tin. BHN of 16. Just tested some smelted scrap recovered from range backstop. At 60+ days, tests 15.5 - 16 with Lee Hardness tester.

[38 Super Auto]

One question is did you quench your finished bullets in water right outta the mold?

Richochet makes a good point about how long since you cast said bullets.

If you want to add linotype, there is a current auction for printer's linotype:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Over-50-lbs-Linotype-Letterpress-Lead-Toy-Sinker-Bullet_W0QQitemZ200170998088QQihZ010QQcategoryZ467 35QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

p.s. disclaimer. I have no $$ interest in the above auction. But is is a pretty good price for linotype. WW lead is going for $1/lb + shipping on ebay.

You can also find antimonial alloys at metal recycling centers sometimes for cheap :)

[ImConfused666]

I tested bullets that had been cast about 2 weeks ago. I should have said that this is the first week I've actually tried testing the bullets I had cast. (I haven't fired or loaded any of them yet.) I did not water quench those. I'm planning to melt them back down and cast again (with quenching). I figure it's good practice for a newbie like me.

What would you expect newly cast bullets to test at and how long before they should read closer to 15?

Thanks for the tip on the linotype. It looks like someone just bought it. Oops.... That was me. :mrgreen:

[454PB]

Welcome to the forum!

As was already said, it takes a while for boolits to reach their full hardness. However, a few days is about all it takes unless some heat treating was done. I'd recommend you stay away from water quenching and heat treating until you get a little experience under your belt. Most wheel weight boolits test about 10 to 12 BHN. Your Midway alloy should get to at least that. To keep it simple, you can buy "richer" alloys from Midway if you want to harden the alloy you already have.

The standards have changed in some venues for Lyman #2. When I started casting 36 plus years ago, it was accepted to be that 15 BHN you quoted, but recently I've seen it listed as WW alloy plus 2% tin. The original Lyman #2 was 90% lead, 5% antimony, and 5% tin.

I'd suggest you try the alloy you already have before any efforts to increase hardness.

[randyrat]

Keep testing. Are you filing a flate spot, if you go 1/64 over on that button the test is no good,don't test bases, smooth pressure, ect... I tested some ingots yesterday and i thought it was soft lead but to my surprise the indent was 5 which made this some nice hard WWs alloy or harder. Some of the scrap that i bought at the salvage yard i though was soft lead was actually good hard alloy, possible some real old WWs or other.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Is the Lee hardness tester faster and as accurate as the "ball bearing between two samples in the vise measured with a caliper" test?
Has anybody come up with a conversion table to BHN for the SAECO hardness tester, or are the springs not uniform enough from unit to unit? I was thinking about getting one, and calibrating it myself, borrowing the use of a friends Rockwell tester.

Morgan

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Another question. Are LBT hardness testers any good? Are they still available?
Morgan

[oneokie]

Is the Lee hardness tester faster and as accurate as the "ball bearing between two samples in the vise measured with a caliper" test?


Haven't used anything other than the Lee. A steady hand helps when using the microscope. Using the microscope is similar to looking in a mirror and manipulating objects, the movements are reversed.

Hope this helps.

[shotstring]

One question is did you quench your finished bullets in water right outta the mold?

Richochet makes a good point about how long since you cast said bullets.

If you want to add linotype, there is a current auction for printer's linotype:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Over-50-lbs-Linotype-Letterpress-Lead-Toy-Sinker-Bullet_W0QQitemZ200170998088QQihZ010QQcategoryZ467 35QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

p.s. disclaimer. I have no $$ interest in the above auction. But is is a pretty good price for linotype. WW lead is going for $1/lb + shipping on ebay.

You can also find antimonial alloys at metal recycling centers sometimes for cheap :)


If you use this vendor, be sure to ask them to make up a box of exactly what you want. I got a box of their lino because they were showing a picture of clean bright monotype in the boxes. What I got was the filthiest floor scrap I have ever encountered. When I complained, they said they were sorry and would put boxes together to suit my needs, so they are to be commended there. Just be sure to ask what you are getting.

[ImConfused666]

Thanks for the advice. I've been reading the forum for the last couple of weeks as a lurker. It seems there's plenty of good folks out there willing to lend a hand (and a few brain cells) to the newbies in the crowd. That would be me...

My youngest brother popped by today and I showed him the Lee Hardness Tester. He followed the instructions on another bullet and got exactly the same results as me. I'm feeling a little better now about my general level of intelligence. I may take him up on his offer to take a couple of bullets in to the engineers at the nuke plant where he works and see what results they get with their fancy testing gear. That'd make me feel a little better about that Fuel Rate Adjustment Clause...

Thanks again. I'll also look forward to seeing the results of using linotype and WW.

[Sundogg1911]

Have you tested the Lee tester with an alloy of known hardness? It sounds like it could be out of calibration. When I test mine against the same alloy as i've tested with my cabintree, they come up the same (wel...very very close) But I have heard of a few of the Lee's being way out of whack. I tend to trust midway alloy over a Lee tester, although mine works very well. The Lee tester will drive you nuts at first trying to get a good reading untill you learn how to read the little eye bugging microscope. Also make sure that you are using the indenter correctly. The pin should be flush with the top, if it is more that 1/64th above the top your reading will read softer.

[USARO4]

Sundogg is giving you good advice. I would add that you should consider a Cabine Tree tester, its the best available.

[montana_charlie]

Have you tested the Lee tester with an alloy of known hardness? It sounds like it could be out of calibration.
When I first started using my Lee tester, my readings usually showed 'softer' than the alloy should have been. Occasionally, I would get a reading that seemed about right.

I contacted Lee, and they said they would check my unit (no charge), replace it, or refund my money...my choice. I didn't want to be without it, so I kept trying.
After I had tested everything I could find that even resembled lead, and still couldn't trust the readings, I made a setup for my shop press where I could check the power of the spring in the tester. That seemed to indicate the spring was right on.

When Midway put the Lee tester on sale, I bought another to compare with my first one. It was during that comparison I discovered the lens in the microscope (from the first kit) was loose.

I sent the 'bad set' to Lee for a refund, and am having good luck with the replacement.
CM

[mtgrs737]

If you would like a second opinion, you could send me five bullets and I would test them with my Cabine tree tester and report back to you. just PM me for my address.

[Tom Myers]

Morgan,

Look here for the conversion table

Saeco to BHN (http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/bhchart.htm)

Tom Myers
Precision Ballistics and Records (http://www.tmtpages.com)



Is the Lee hardness tester faster and as accurate as the "ball bearing between two samples in the vise measured with a caliper" test?
Has anybody come up with a conversion table to BHN for the SAECO hardness tester, or are the springs not uniform enough from unit to unit? I was thinking about getting one, and calibrating it myself, borrowing the use of a friends Rockwell tester.

Morgan

[Char-Gar]

Let me tell you what I know and what I don't know.

1. I don't know squat about a Lee tester.
2. I have been using a SAECO tester for 15 years with complete satisfaction.
3. I have shot a couple of tons over #2 alloy over the years and it is the right stuff for rifle bullets and magnum handgun bullets. It is harder than needed for non-magnum handgun loads.
4. There is no need to quench #2 alloy
5. What a tester says doesn't mean anything. All that counts is what the bullets do in a firearm. That is the trust tester. So load and shoot some before you get you knickers in a twist about testers, numbers and the like. I predict you will be happy with the results no matter what the Lee gizmo says.
6. I would trust Midwayss ability to sell the proper alloy before I would trust Lee's ability to make a proper tool.

[montana_charlie]

Let me tell you what I know and what I don't know.

2. I have been using a SAECO tester for 15 years with complete satisfaction.

5. What a tester says doesn't mean anything.
I wonder what a 'newby' will take away from that advice...
CM

[leftiye]

[QUOTE=Chargar;244524 I would trust Midwayss ability to sell the proper alloy before I would trust Lee's ability to make a proper tool.[/QUOTE]


Had me rolling on the floor! Talk about clear, simple stark reality!:drinks:

[Char-Gar]

Montana... I guess I said that wrong.. I mean to say, that what this guys tester says was not as importnat as what take place in the firearm.

Good reliable testers have their place in helping up to determine the hardness of an unknown alloy or as a check when we have made our own alloy. I cast bullets for 35 years before I had a tested and did just fine. They can be useful, but are by no means necessary.

In general there are so many gizmos and gadgets available to the reloading and caster today that were not available when I started almost 50 years ago. WE did just fine without them, but today, for some, instead of just being a helpful thing, they have become the tail that wags the dog.

This poor guy was letting this testing gizmo get in the way of shooting.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Tom, Thanks for the chart, I've saved it in my reloading file.
Morgan