Been "pondering" a few years now...

[Pilgrim]

If you all recall, a cast bullets reputation for killing is based upon boolit diameter and penetration. I know, I know a CB will oft times set up and mushroom if soft enough. I've had it happen with my .358 Win in fact. But back to my musings...

The energy of a .44 Mag for example is considerably more than that of a .45 ACP, and that is a fact. However, the penetrating qualities of a cast bullet are legendary. So...why wouldn't a .45 cal. boolit at 900 fps muzzle velocity be a good self defense load for the big furry critters? The .44 will lose velocity quite quickly as compared to the .45, at least until the .44 gets below ~ 1100 fps. After thnking about it for quite a while (as noted in the title) I've come to the conclusion, with no emperical data to back it up, that a .45 ACP would make a more than adequate self defense weapon. In fact, I've sold my .45 Colt (heavy loaded) due to its' weight and size, and have gone to my Kimber for this role. It is in either a shoulder or hip holster, depending upon other garb, pack or not, etc. A 1911 type pistol is both smaller and lighter than a .44 Mag, so you would more likely carry it than the .44 Mag. Barrel length for the .44, if reduced to easy carry length will lower the muzzle velocity of thye .44 a fair amount. Bullet weight is usually about the same (230 gr. for the .45 vs 240 gr. for the .44). The .45 recoil is substantially less than the .44 so the opportunity for "second shots" are more likely, not to mention faster with the pistol than revolver. [Their aren't many "Jerry Miculek" types around so don't tell me about how fast you can run a revolver, please.] You aren't likely to pot a large critter at ranges more than 25 yards, if that much, so velocity loss will be not be very significant. So why wouldn't a .45 ACP be nearly as effective, if not more effective for defense purposes than one of the magnums? Pilgrim

[Ricochet]

FWIW, I've gone through much the same thought process recently as I've been carrying my Government Model when I go walking at night, since I think I had two brushes with a cougar in the early spring and summer. It isn't what I'd choose to go hunt one with, but I think a .45 hardball in the face at short range would do the job, and it's a lot easier to carry and to quickly get in action than my Super Blackhawk.

I recall reading many years ago the memoirs of an early African adventurer named Ionnides who got treed by a rhino with his .375 left on the ground. All he had was his Government Model .45, as I recall with a couple of spare magazines. He was on a low branch, and the rhino kept running underneath trying to hook him. When it did, he would shoot down into his head and neck with the .45. Took a bunch of shots, but eventually the rhino died.

[BruceB]

Over about forty years of bullet-casting, and living and/or working in the Northwest Territories bush for most of that period, I've put a few cast bullets into big critters.

"Hardball" is a LOUSY critter-getter, unless it's small game, and even then it's pretty lousy. The bullet shape tends to push aside the internal structures of animals, causing relatively little damage and often veering off-course as well. Semi-wadcutters are MUCH better. Where the hardball/round-nose does little damage, the SWC will cut chunks out of nerve bundles and blood vessels, and also cut bullet-diameter passages through muscles and organs. SWCs also tend to travel straighter within the animal, particularly following bone contact.

Bullet choice is more important than caliber choice, as long as we don't get ridiculous. The .38/.357 is too small in caliber and bullet weight for reliable bear defense, but in the over-.40-caliber class, most common calibers will do the job if PROPERLY LOADED, meaning with a proper bullet. I'd put the .45 ACP at the bottom of the acceptable list, if bears are involved. If I was forced to use a .45 auto for anti-bear work, it would NOT be loaded with a cast bullet. Instead, the heaviest Hornady XTP that I could get to work in my gun would my choice. In fact, even though I carried cast loads for all those years in the North, I'd now use heavy XTPs in the .41 and .44 as well.

Here's why: when hunting, we can pick and choose our shots, turning down the ones we don't like, and an accurate cast-bullet load will kill nicely at ranges far beyond what we'd consider "defensive" distance...the referenced 25 yards is a fair yardstick, I think. When shooting to kill an attacker, we need results RIGHT NOW, reliably, and this requires the maximum-possible tissue destruction inside the attacker for blood loss and possible breaking-down of skeletal support. The XTP is specifically designed for deep penetration and relatively-slow expansion, and is more effective in quickly taking-out animals than are cast bullets. I've examined the wound channels left in big animals by my cast .44 Magnum loads, and they are long and narrow. Very little serious destruction of organs, etc., took place along the way. Penetration is superb, but damage along the way is limited.

We certainly aren't un-armed in carrying cast-bullet loads, but there are better bullets available now than we had even ten or fifteen years ago. To put the critter down quickly requires a perfectly-placed shot in the case of the cast bullet, or we can choose the better chances of really tearing things up internally with a good controlled-expansion bullet. (One thing I intend to try with my softpoint tests is the the Lee 44-310 bullet. Maybe we can have the expansion in a cast load, too.)

In the .45 ACP for bear country, I'd do some research on 250-grain XTPs,as well. With a heavier recoil spring, it might get enough speed to expand. The one possible problem in using hollowpoint XTPs or whatever is that we DO need a certain amount of velocity for reliable expansion. Personally, I think the .45 ACP is not very good for the job IF bears are in the equation. For anything lighter than that, it should work just fine. For the number of rounds we'd need for actual defensive use, I'll be pleased to pay the money for GOOD reliable bullets.

Right now, if I'm out-and-about in Nevada, a .357 or even a .38 stuffed with cast bullets suits me fine. So does a .45 ACP, 1911 or SIG. Cougars don't worry me at all, with such equipment. My .44 Maggie loads are toned-down to 250 at 1000 fps for Nevada use, but I carried full-power loads in the bear areas. I think you can get by with many alternatives,for most uses....but NOT FOR BEARS. A steel Government Model weighs 39 ounces unloaded. My S&W .44 Mountain Revolver is 42 ounces. For having the better cartridge, that weight penalty is insignificant. Also, given the proper incentive, people get AMAZED at the speed with which a firearm can be operated.....

I'm speaking from a certain amount of experience, so take it for what you think it's worth. Man, I do love the 1911 guns....

I should add that my current position re: the XTP is not based on my personal use of the bullet, but rather on the writings of Mr. J.J. Hack, a guide of extensive experience on bears, whose opinions I respect. (If he can cause ME to change my opinion on anything related to guns, bears, ammo etc., he HAS to be good!)

[Char-Gar]

I am from Texas, so I can't talk to the folks who deal with bears. So, I will only speak of what I know and here it is. A Colt Govt. Model in 45 ACP using a cast bullet with a good meplat, like 452423 WILL take deer cleanly out to 50 yards with no problems and decent bullet placement. I have done it on a number of occassions.

The same load is GOBS A PLENTY pistol for Mountain Lion/Puma/Cougar. I have killed two with such a pistol and load and wouldn't think twice about doing it again.

Now bear, moose, and such are beyond my experience., so I will just shut up.

[BD]

I have a little different take on this, probably due to different experiences in different territory. I spent a few years guiding black bear hunters in northern Maine, and I owned and operated a wool and fur tannery for 7 years in the same area. While I have never killed a black bear myself, (they were worth more to me alive than dead), I've seen a good number of them shot with all manor of firearms and bows. I've also skun and caped more than my fair share of blackies and I've probably fleshed and tanned 3,000 or so. I'd bet I've removed 25 or 30 fully expanded .44 mags, (including XTPs) from the heads of bears where they were lodged in the jaw muscle without having penetrated the skull. These were virtually all "finishing" shots taken at very close range at bears downed or bayed up. And these were black bears, generally under 300 lbs. To my mind that is not sufficient penetration.

When I'm looking to defend myself from something that wants to chew on me I'm using hard cast bullets. I want to penetrate through the muscle, break the bones, and keep on going out the other side. I have talked to a couple of old timers who claim that JHPs are good bear defense bullets as they seem to distract the bear, causing it to stop charging and sit and paw at the wound allowing time to shoot again or clear out of the area. I've killed some stuff with handguns and I'm in the Veral Smith camp. I like a big meplat with a sharp edge. In my experience SWCs, while better than hardball, are still not that good for killing things. I've had much better luck with WFNs. It didn't take me long to come to the double action .44 mag loaded with the lee 310 for baiting and guiding bear hunts. The 1911s are definately easier to carry, but if I know I'm gonna meet bears I'm taking the .44. If you're not working and have both hands free my advice is a short 12 guage and 00 buck. The "tactical" pumps with the 7 round tubes look ideal for this and if you put a sling on it you might have it with you when you need it. It is hard to climb a tree, or hold a dog, and shoot at the same time with a shotgun though.

I still spend a fair amount of time in the woods not hunting. That's why I designed the BD acp. I wanted the 230 grain WFN style @ 900 fps in my ccw for those times when I wasn't hunting and didn't feel like explaining a gun on my hip. I've killed a few animals with the 1911 and I don't have much faith in the "self defense" JHPs in .45 for penetration. They'll make a mess out of a racoon or a dog, but you need a good precise hit on anything bigger to slow it down much.

That said I knew a guide and taxidermist who had been filling his personal tag by trapping a bear each year for many years. He killed all of them with a little .22 RF rifle behind the ear. He told me he only had to take a second shot one time.
BD

[pjh421]

I love shooting handgonnes and I sure wouldn't want to get shot by one even if I was a bear, however, if enemy (large predator, etc.) contact is either expected or imminent...well, you should be carrying a rifle. Just bite the boolit and tote the extra weight. There's no reason to skimp on security when you might wind up dead. A .450 Marlin or .45-70 Gov. chambered lever action is in the ballpark as far as being powerful enough and not too tough to carry. Those 400 - 500 grain slugs really penetrate. You probably won't have to shoot anything anyway. If it's unlikely that you will be in danger, then what the heck - go ahead and carry your favorite auto or revolver. I sure like that S&W 329PD!

Paul

[44man]

I'm in BD's camp. XTP's and most jacketed bullets expand WAY too fast and penetration sucks. The 300 gr .44 is better but in the ACP it is designed for PEOPLE. Plunk one into a big bear and it might not do more then make him MAD! [smilie=1: I do not use anything but WLN or WFN boolits, cast a little hard. I don't like the semi wadcutter either.
Yes the wound channel looks small but just how do you tell in the lungs???? It has been shown that the wound channel is as large as a jacketed soft point with far more penetration when shot into ballistic material.
For defense against a bear I want a boolit that will not stop no matter where it is hit and I want a large meplat. Another thing I want is enough velocity to make it keep going. Yes, a slow, heavy boolit might go deep and is fine for deer but I want some punch for larger game. The faster you drive a heavy flat nose boolit, the more destruction it causes. For those that think not, shoot a bear with a 300 gr boolit from a slingshot.
Too much recoil? Gun too heavy? Why not carry a pencil and poke them in the eye? For a griz, you can use a plastic pen. :mrgreen:

[Dale53]

I have meager experience hunting big animals compared to some of you. However, I was in on the autopsies of somehwhere between 35-50 black bears. I have only killed ONE!

Handguns in general have limited penetration. I will NOT be giving any penetration away by using expanding bullets. I am MUCH in favor of a wide meplat "heavy for the caliber" cast bullet. My preference would be the Lee C430- 310-RF that Frank Siefer and I designed. THAT is our bear bullet and was designed for such.

So, BD and I are in agreement on proper bear medicine.

The famous Aftrican Hunter, John Taylor, is one of the few Aftican Hunters that has done much thinking on the subject of handguns and game. Read Taylor's, African Cartridges and Game. I found it fascinating.

Dale53

Dale53

[mainiac]

I dont have much to add to this question, but i have killed alot of livestock with .22 lr. In a rifle it is certain death with one shot (placed right), but any time i use3d a handgun .22, i was very nervous because i had terrible luck with them. Is it because the rifle barrell gives a more accurate angle to the brain, or is it the added velocity from the long barrell? Ive often wondered, but i know the rifle kills FAR better than a handgun.

[Pilgrim]

Looks like I've stirred something up here. Didn't mean to, but was curious how others thought about it.

I made my choice based upon the many many years of black powder 45 Colt history/information. A whole lot of most everything was killed with that round. It was loaded with a very small meplat 250 lead boolit at about 900 or so fps. My carry load for "social situations" with the 1911 is the Winchester PD load. For woodsy type stuff, I've settled on the RCBS 230 gr cowboy boolit. It is a very flat nosed roundnose designed for the 45 Colt/Schofield & such. It has a pretty good meplat, and will feed relliably in my Kimber. I never carry hardball for anything. And yes, my recoil spring is the 24# spring. As to weight, My Kimber is the Commander size (4" barrel) SS model. I don't recall its' weight, but I know it weighs a whole lot less than my Blackhawk did. I don't anticipate stopping any bear in any situation if he/she is after me. What I do want to do is put enough holes in it that it might die before killing me, or even better, might wander off to lick its' wounds rather than continue to chew on me. Carrying an Marlin/Win 45-70, or any other gun of that weight, including the X frame S&W's (if you aren't hunting with one) is nuts. A lot of the north country BruceB is talking about is pretty much up and down. Here in the NW (Wash State) where grizzlies wander the mountains are all up and down and steep enough you wish you had "teeth in your butt" so you had something to hold on with besides your hands. Unless your rifle was in your hands, it would be useless. Bears are too fast for you to be able to unsling it and get a shot off at the ranges I'm talking about. If you can see the critter coming towards you from any significant distance, I thnk it'd be better to try and figure out how to get out of its way. Contrary to most stories, bears don't charge humans unless you are pretty close to them to start with, and usually then only when you've surprised them. I don't go looking for trouble when in the mountains, but have had black bear wander right into camp while early season scouting. We don't have many grizzlies in the state, but again contrary to common belief, mountain grizzllies aren't much bigger than large black bears (400 # or so). Coastal Brown Bears are in a whole different class which includes the Polar Bears. In that country I would carry a 12 ga. "riot gun" loaded with slugs when fishing. It's light enough to sling over your back and short enough to pretty much be a non-problem hanging up on stuff. If I was hunting grouse or ptarmigan, I think I'd trust the shotgun, even with shot loads, but I'd still carry the .45. When hunting in big bear country with a rifle, it's most common for folks to carry one sized for the big bears. Pilgrim

[Larry Gibson]

Pilgrim

I've killed a couple black bears with the .45 ACP (one with a Combat Commander) using 185 HPs. Neither lacked for penetration with chest shots. I've also had a couple run in's with a few black bears (Oregon) and one grizz (Alaska). Three of the blacks were backed down by simply firing either in front of them or right by their heads (none were "charging"). As you say, it is better to have a smaller, light weight .45 on your hip than the bigger, heavier .44 in the PU or the S&W 500 back home in the gunsafe.

I've an old Ideal 452490 GC mould which casts a very nice 245 gr SWC. It works well in the M1911 and .45 AR revolvers. I've run it at 850 fps out of a 5" M1911 with the 24# spring. But frankly you'll find me most often in the woulds with 195-200 gr SWCs loaded over 7.5 gr Unique and they run 1025 fps out of my M1911. I've shot several animals with that load and have no doubt of it's ability to penetrate and kill.

Larry Gibson

[crabo]

Larry, what weight spring are you running with the Unique load with the 200 swc? I just bought a Kimber alloy frame commander. My 5" custom Para loaded up with 17 rounds of 45 acp made me walk funny.(I built it for ISPC) I sorta lean to one side, so I needed a lighter carry gun.

Crabo

[Larry Gibson]

In the Commander I'm using the 20# Wilson spring with a shoc-buff added. I got 5 springs about 20 years ago and am still using the 3rd one. The springs never got "soft" that I could tell, I just changed them out every so often for S&Gs. I replace the shock buffs about every year also. I don't shoot the Commander as much as I used to, probably 500 rounds in practice a year. The 200 gr SWC over 7.5 Unique load runs 1005 fps out of the CC. It's the old original load Cooper recommended for defensive shooting. I mostly still use an IPSC M1911 I built up years ago for practice and hunting, it's still single stack. I use a 22# spring with shock buff in it with the heavy hunting loads. With my standard practice load (195 SWC over 5 gr Bullseye) I switch to the 16# spring in both models.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

I will always agree it is best to have ANY gun then none at all. However since I only use my revolvers for hunting I only use one gage. Considering that all hits are good, how much blood is lost and how good is the trail, How fast does the game go down and how far they traveled plus the bullet has to go all the way through.
My gage is the total effect for EVERY shot, never 2 or 3 out of 10. You can kill an animal with almost anything, even a sharp stick in the right spot. But even deer can survive what you might think has to be fatal.
I choose my calibers, boolits and power needed based on the former, never how easy it can be to kill something.
In a bad situation it would be possible to empty an entire .45 ACP magazine into an enraged bear with little effect. Then just maybe, one shot will stop it. I much rather prefer a boolit that will go all the way through from any angle then something that might flatten on a shoulder or skull.
There are some very powerful handguns in small light packages that I would prefer for backup.
You must agree that it is different shooting a charging bear then shooting one over food.
My friend made some tests with a .177 pellet gun on a dead deer and was able to penetrate the skull into the brain. Surprising, but who would hunt deer with one?

[Larry Gibson]

The point here is we are not talking hunting nor we are not talking killing. What we are talking is making the bear cease an attack. Bears are known for ceasing an attack if injured. There are many, many accounts of this both before the bear has made contact and after. The recent case of the indian guide up North who was finally able to stab a polar bear a few times after being savagely ravaged is a good example. Another recent example is the brown bear killed with a .44 after being turned away from the shooter and his partner several times. I have made 3 black bears who were very agressive (I was chased by one) leave by shooting right by their head or in front of them. To do this you do not need a bullet that will leave a nice blood trail for tracking. Nor do we need a bullet that will penetrate to vitals. What is needed is a bullet that slaps the bear hard enough to get it's attention or cause some painful injury. This is apparently all that is needed to stop attacks. This has been demonstrated for real time and again in bear attacks.

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop]

Larry it sounds much like what you are saying is you want something that will wound a bear and not kill it, at least thats what I got from your last post. If I may be allowed an opinion I think that is absolutely crazzy.
I have been chased by more bears than you could ever know during my carear as a timber faller in SE Alaska. If I have to shoot because a bear is thretening I want only one thing and that is to KILL as quickly as possible. Anything otherwise is leaving a nasty problem for someone else to clean up.
You may be right about some bears being turned by noise or after injury but I would bet that even more will become more agressive with injury or even noise especially if they are defending young or food. . I know of too many people being chewed up perty good after mortally wounding a bear and waiting for the minute it can take for him to run out of gas.
If a firearm is required to settle the situation then IMO there should be only one goal in mind that being to kill as fast as possible.
As for the 45 acp with ball ammo it will certanly handle the job if the shooter has the nerve to put it right. 45 ball is the prefered load for culling bison here and a bison is bigger in every way than any bear.
I was looking at some sectioned bear skulls a friend has, both brown and black. He did this to find the location of thin spots in the skull. If you hold them up to a light you can see very thin areas one being just over and behind the ear hole.
He told me he learned this from an old native bear hunter. Seems this old fella had quite a reputation for killing bears so my friend went to his village and looked him up. He said he found his cabin littered with bear skulls. My friend had a chat with the old native and asked what was his prefered cartridge for such. He went and got his rifle and it was an old 22 special. The old boy said you have to be very close and place the bullet just right in the thin spot, man I guess! Thats why my friend sectioned the skulls, to find the thin spots, it was very enlightening. How many times have you heard somebody say shoot just behind the ear, and apparently for good reason?
So there you have one mans opinion and that goes the same in any situation that a firearm is required for self defence, shoot to kill.
BIC/BS

[Ricochet]

The forehead of a bear is NOT a good place to shoot him. The frontal bone's thick and generally at a shallow angle to the shooter if he's coming at you. Remember those pics a few years back of the big brownie or grizzly that a ranger shot with some big Magnum rifle? Had grooves on his forehead where the bullets bounced off.

[Bass Ackward]

I think the proper gun for the job is mated to the danger level.

If operating in an area where bear attacks are very likely, I'll carry a 12 gauge with slugs thank you very much. It might be inconvenient, but I'll make do.

If we are talking about a haphazard meeting here where bears are known to be in the area, then what is required can be open for a wide debate. In the end, we can argue all you want, but if you feel a 45 auto is plenty to carry, all you can either be is right or dead wrong.

Me, since I know you own a 329pd, I'd wear that. If you own bigger, I'd wear that. But I am a coward at heart. And this ain't humane hunting here. I'll go for overkill every time. :grin: You brave soles can argue minimums.

[leftiye]

I sat with coworkers and talked guns a lot for years. The coworkers and I were gunnuts, and we discussed self defense. This was about defense against human attackers, and some of the weapons that humans may survive, and/or not be stopped by are reminiscent of the bear discussion. I know people who not only survived a 12 gauge wound but killed their attacker with a knife after being shot. For these reasons (including people literally shot to pieces and still coming on-PCP etc.) the end of the search is "bigger is better" and this in terms of tissue damage.

Elmer Kieth may have wrote about a guy who killed three grizzlies with one cylinder full from a 45 Colt (5 shots). The first two while being charged with one head shot each. Never the less, unless you can fer sure get to the spinal column or brain, don't shoot a bear in the "jaw muscle" or in the head at all, break his shoulders, or evaporate his heart. This takes some energy! Use the biggest baddest thing you can make work in the situation! It's been said several times here and on other threads- this is no time to use what MIGHT work and take chances. Overkill is a myth, dead is what matters.

[44man]

Right, to wound a bear is stupid because if you are lucky enough to get away, someone else can be killed by the bear. An aggressive bear has to be killed. I don't want to stand there and shoot at one over and over with pipsqueek gun hoping it will work.

[Larry Gibson]

"Larry it sounds much like what you are saying is you want something that will wound a bear and not kill it, at least thats what I got from your last post. If I may be allowed an opinion I think that is absolutely crazzy."

"Right, to wound a bear is stupid because if you are lucky enough to get away, someone else can be killed by the bear."

Not crazy or stupid at all. However, I don't believe I said "shoot to wound". I would thoroughly expect a bear shot 8 times as mentioned to die. Unless of course I was a piss poor shot. One always shoots to kill but it doesn't always work out that way. In a defensive situation against a bear my attitude is the same as when I was a LEO and dealing with miscreants. My imediate concern is not to kill but to stop the anti social behavior immediately. That anti social behavior in the case of a bear is thinking about, or attempting to do me or someone else bodily harm. One does not have to kill to attain that objective. I have done it 3 times with no harm to the bear or any person. Killing the bear is not the immediate requirement to stop it from mauling, chewing on you or killing you (or someone else). Stopping the bear from doing any of those IS the imediate objective. Again, the bear does not have to be imediately killed to make it stop it's attack.

Now as to my "stupidity"; I can assure you the last concern you will have at that time is the thought that if you just wound the bear it may get someone else..... later. You will have two concerns; first is to keep your own ass alive and in one piece. The other most likely will be to keep from crapping your pants. Concern of what the bear may do later will not be your concern at that moment. If you survive the attack and can still function then the wounded bear may be your concern. If you've only wounded the bear it will be tracked down and killed by you or the authorities.

I also don't believe I mentioned head or jaw shooting the bear. I mentioned shooting shooting too late which often does not give you a very good shot(s). Those of you who wait until a bear charges had really better carry the rifle or shotgun. Preferably if in bear country you might want to learn about bears behavior and what signals they give when stalking, warning or going to attack. I walk bear country all the time. Sometimes carrying no more than the .32 H&R. However, if in serious bear country where confrontation can be at close range I carry a more substantial handgun if I'm not carrying a rifle which I most often am anyway. If one hunts in the NW (Oregon and Washington) with a bow or muzzle loader it is illegal to carry a centerfire handgun while hunting. Guess all those hunters are stupid and I must be too as I've not read all the reports of those hunters getting mauled and killed because they didn't have their trusty .44, 480, 500 or some such handgun. Maybe you'd be so kind as to forward the reports to me? I can forward numerous reports to you of bear attacks being thwarted because the bear was wounded (either died shortly or was tracked down and killed) with handguns, knives, clubs and rocks a whole lot less powerful than our trusty magnum rotators.

I do not propose wounding the bear on purpose, I always say one should shoot to kill regrdless of the firearm used. It just doesn't work out that way many, many times. The first rule of gunfighting is; have a gun. That applies to bear attacks also; have a gun, any gun.

Larry Gibson

P.S. Guys, we obviously disagree here. I'm stating what I believe based on experience and study. I have several .44s so I'm not lamblasting the magnums. I also am not calling any of you "crazzy" or "stupid". When I think of calling you guys crazy or stupid because I disagree with your position I'll back out of this thread as it no longer is a discussion. I would appreciate the same consideration.

[45nut]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/SRH/100_1051.jpg

454 Ruger SRH,,, bear medicine. I just duracoated it except for the cylinder.

[waksupi]

Leaving a wounded griz, makes one very unpopular in this area.

[Scrounger]

How hard was it to get that Duracoat on smoothly? I'm tempted to do a gun or two with that.

[45nut]

It is apparently impossible to get it to run, or you would have seen it there. Easier by far than anything I tried before.

[Bullshop]

Calm down Larry, I didnt say you were crazzy I said what I thought you were saying was crazzy.
*** To do this you do not need a bullet that will leave a nice blood trail for tracking. Nor do we need a bullet that will penetrate to vitals. What is needed is a bullet that slaps the bear hard enough to get it's attention or cause some painful injury.***
I read it over and over and it still sounds the same to me. There was no personal attak just saying what I am reading sounds crazzy to me in my own experiance.
How many of those attaks ended in death to the person that didnt have a gun? We had a local attak last summer when a fella got too close to a grizz feeding on road kill.
He had three shots in a 30/06 semi auto and hastily fired the first two missing just before the bear hit him knocking him down and chewing him a bit. He managed to get loose some way and tried to run but the bear had him again on the ground. He managed to shove the muzzle into the middle of the bear and break the spine with his last shot. I dont think that bear was impressed by the first two mises, but the last shot a killing shot got his attention. Dont be so fast to play your insult card, but listen and learn especially to someone with much experiance in what they are talking about. None of us know it all but our combined knowage will likely cover most of it.
I too have made it through a couple attaks both from wounded and unharmed bears. On a frontal shot to the head unless you have a really fast bullet the forhead is not the best but that seems to be what we focus on , perhaps because we are seeing those eyes. There is a path to the brain though being through the nasal passages. If the head is up its a straight line to the brain and if the head is down somewhat the nasal passage is still a straight line to the spine. I know because I had to stop an attak within a few feet with a 44 mag loaded with 21gn 2400 and the 250 Keith. The shot went through the head and out the base of the skull. The bear went up and over backwards and rolled down the hill to my last log as I fired three more shots double action. When he hit the log and stopped he was dead.
You can do all kinds of guessing about what he might do but to me that more like gambling and I dont gamble. If its a genuine attak you know it, there is no guessing. You must draw the line and if the attaker crosses the line you must have the capabillity to kill the attaker and you must not hesitate.
I was once guiding for caribou on the west coast and while heading for camp with two cliants had an encounter with a bear. We were on one side of a saddle and the bear on the other and we had to cross to get to camp. The bear spotted us and came accross to check us out. Everyone got single file behind me and I heard all guns get loaded.
It was obvious the bear was not aggresive but was getting too close. He had likely never seen people before and was just checking us out. Even though he was not agresive he was too close at about 10 feet and if he changed his attitude we would not have time to react. Not knowing for sure how to handle this situation I picked up a hard ball sized rock and hit the bear with it. Thats all he needed and trotted off. We had stories at chow time about how we were attaked and I was a hero. There was no attak but them fellows pay for the pleasure so why take it from them. That week we had to kill one in camp that kept us up all night tearing up our meet tent and thretening other tents. He made several mok charges at which we fired shots to scare him away. Its a tough thing to do by colman lantern. The next day after breakfast when I was leaving the cook tent as I poked my head through the flap I found myself about nose to nose with him and that was enough. Still not an attak but would have been a matter of time.
I should quit rambling and move on. Anyway I guess I made my polisy.
BIC/BS

[Larry Gibson]

Bullshop

Well I guess I'm not very learned but you make my point;

"He had three shots in a 30/06 semi auto and hastily fired the first two missing just before the bear hit him knocking him down and chewing him a bit. He managed to get loose some way and tried to run but the bear had him again on the ground. He managed to shove the muzzle into the middle of the bear and break the spine with his last shot. I dont think that bear was impressed by the first two mises, but the last shot a killing shot got his attention."

The bear was already in the attack mode and this guy wasn't ready. Had he been able to fire perhaps one shot before the bear decided to attack it may not have. I believe I'm the one who quotes the first rule of a gun fight so why are you asking me about the ones that didn't have any gun? I did not say shoot to wound nor do I advocate it. I always advocate shoot to kill also. However just how many people who wander bear woods carry the large magnum revolvers? Not that many. How many carry hand guns of lessor power than the .44, a whole lot more than carry the larger magnums (we're talking Washington here Bullshop and since I live and tramp around HERE perhaps I might just be learned on the subject)?

Now let me ask; should one of these lessor pilgrims (not refering to you Pilgrim) armed with a handgun less powerful or loaded with dreaded non-penetrating HPs than a .44 magnum not shoot a bear if attacked for fear of only wounding the bear? I say they should and I say if they aren't capable with the magnums but are with something smaller then that's fine to. I guess if that sounds crazy then put me down as looney as hell.

I can just see it now; Gee mr. bear, I see you are rather pissed off and are intent on chewing my ass but I've only got this M1911 .45 ACP. Since it is the opinion of some that I might only wound you and that that would not be nice or get any respect around the old campfire tonight so I guess I won't shoot you. I think I'll just let you maul me or kill me, OK? Or maybe you could give me a rain check and I'll go get a more proper and fitting handgun for this event, OK?" I'm sure mr. bear will be reasonable, don't you!

I didn't play the insult card, it was laid down twice on the table but I'll accept your reasoning or apology, whichever. You may have more experience with grizz in Alaska than I but I've been dealing with blacks down here a long time. I may not know everything there is to know about bears but I walked away from several close encounters with them. Figured I'd learned something in the doing. Listening to others with much experience goes both ways. If you know someone who does know everything there is to know I'd like to meet him.

I'm still looking forward to a meet up there on my next trip by the way. Not to worry as I'll probably have my .44 Anaconda with me though I might have them horrible XTPs in it. Ain't nothin' said here worth loosin' friends over in my humble unlearned opinion.

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop]

No hard feelins here Larry, guess I just misunderstood exactly what you was sayin. The part I quoted was what was confusing to me. I didnt mean to sound like a know it all but guess thats what it sounded like. Also I want to appologise if I have insulted you as thats not what I ment to do. The idea in my head that I got when I read that part about the bullet needed just seemed crazy(Tina corrected me)to me. What you say about using what you have is better than nothing is sure not crazy but sound advice. For me if what I had in hand was a 22 short you can bet I would be using it if an attak was eminent. Guess I didnt have the hole picture and the part I had just didnt seem right. You likely have more experiance than me dealing with bears. I have worked with fellas from the OP and know from them theres bears aplenty there. Sorry if I spoke too quick and sharp, never no offence intended. I think we do agree on the fact that if you are attaked you have to fight in what ever way you can. If you have a gun use it, or a knife or club use it, or even if just bare fist use um. Your chances are better than if you just give up. A winner never quits and a quiter never wins, least thats what I tell my kids.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[Larry Gibson]

Bullshop

We are on the same page of the hymm book as usual but looks like I was fumbling through the pages. You got's to add a lot more detail to that bear killin' hero story....how 'bout it?

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

Great discusssion, gentlemen. Thanks for the info. After meeting
a number of griz up in Alaska many years ago, I now carry my S&W
629 when horseback or foot hunting, and S&W 329 when backpacking
(just can't have the extra weight with a 55 lb pack - I only weigh 155
myself). I use 20 gr 2400 under a 429421 which kicks like the devil
in the 329, and not too bad at all in the 4" Mtn Gun 629. I just will
not go out in the woods unarmed any more, the final straw was
being nearby when a female friend was jumped by a pack of feral
dogs on her own property. She sent them running with 3 shots from
a 10mm 1911 she was carrying. I had never even thought of an
attack by feral dogs, but it happened and really made me think.
Minimum 1911 .45ACP or S&W .357 in blk bear/cougar/dog country, but
usually the one of the .44s is the choice.

I, too, figure any handgun is a joke compared to a rifle and you need
PENETRATION and can't afford to trade ANY of it for expansion.

I'm expecially happy to read of Bullshop's experience with the Kieth
load on griz "in the real thing" - just what I was hoping would happen.
Wonderful to know that it really works without having to do the
testing myself. Hope to never have to, but will if necessary.

Given my druthers - I'd use the Marlin Guide gun .45-70, 405 at 1750,
but it is just not realistic unless hunting.
Given hiking and backpacking, the pistol will be there and the rifle
will not unless it is Alaska in serious bear country - then 'maybe'.

Bill

[Bass Ackward]

Unless you live through an event that generates great fear, you have no idea how you will react. And depending on the element of surprise on your part, experience at controling fear, that was properly handled once, is no guarante to be handled as well again.

I guess what I am saying is that experience with fear can NEVER be guaranteed to determine the outcome. Even experienced vets can lose their nerve under the right circumstances mostly of surprise.

The secret to survival is to turn the cycle of fear around before it's thrust on you regardless of how big your gun is. Bear, cat, or man, any situation is more easily controlled, the earlier in the cycle of fear that it is dealt with. Gee Wiz Dan, in my mind, anything that comes too close, (camp borders) or stops has just earned a triggered response. Lawful or not, in this case, I will be the judge, jury, and executioner.

I'll gladly pay the fine if I make it. Dang, that brought back memories. Hair is still standing up on the back of my neck.

[44man]

I hope I didn't offend anyone either. I just said to deliberately shoot a charging bear to wound it would be stupid! If all the tactics to scare it off don't work and it is hell bent on tearing you up, it needs killed. That also means it needs killed FAST and in that position I don't think anyone wants a small gun or the wrong bullet.
I spent years bow hunting in black bear country and had many encounters. I even had a huge one climbing the tree I was sitting in. I calmy talked him back down. I never worried about them at all. My footprints walking out showed a bear followed me out and walked in my tracks, just about every trip into and out of the game lands too. These were large bears, 300 to 400#. They had no fear of people and would come into the campgrounds at night when everyone was eating. The guys would scatter from the tables and the bears would eat the food. I never seen one show aggression.
Griz is a different story and I would want a big gun as backup. I don't know why guys get upset and argue about it. I kept reading the posts and it seems everyone agrees anyway.
I never call anyone here names so please don't think that way.

[Char-Gar]

The psychology of fear is a very interesting subject. Folks like to generalize about the subject, there is so much difference in how people process fear, that generalizations can be suspect.

Fear can either render folks helpless or sharpen their senses and give them an edge in dealing with the situation. Fear and the "fight or flight" physical response is nature's way of helping us stay alive.

Without getting into details, I have lived in some very dangerious circumstances and had three or four crisis where my chances of being alive one minute after the crisis were no better than a coin toss. I experienced the physical responses, and knew the situations was critical, but matained my ability to think and respond in an appropriate and effective manner. This of course involved making some very, very quick choices.

Self confidence is a very important factor is survival. We learn self confidence through out our lives and hopefully we learn to trust our decision making abilities. When the brown noxious stuff hits the ventilator, if we trust our ability to make quality decision, we can focus on what we can do, rather than what can/might/will happen to us.

The worse thing I can imagine is being in such a situation, where I had no choices, nor any ability to respond. To be helpless the a real scary thing.

All of my truly dangerous experiences have been with oher human beings. I have never had any thing close of a fearful experience with critters.

My one deep paralizing fear has to do with heights such as cliff, ledges, drop offs, and the like. Now that stuff truly scares the pee out of me.

I would agree with Bass, that previous experiences with fear producing situations are no guarantee of what will take place in another... BUT.. past behaviour is still the best predictor of future behaviour.

There are no humans that are exemp from fear, but some folks live fear filled lives and others do not. I have seen grown men turned into blithering idiots by situations that were just no more than moderatley dangerous. They were focused on what could happen, rather than what they could and should do. They "awfulized" the situation to the point they became inable to respond.

In my own case, I can tell you, that I was so focused on my response that I was not fully aware of how truly precarious the situation was until after the fact.

Just my dos centavos worth...

[Dale53]

I have interviewed dozens of successful bear hunters. Since we were hunting in Canada, they all used rifles. As I stated above, I was in on a good number of bear autopsies. When the hide is peeled off, the musculature of a bear is visible and frankly, the structure is amazing. The power of a bear is just flat awesome (whether a 200 lb 2 year old or a grizzled mature black bear that can weigh 300-400 lbs or more. I am speaking of black bears, here, as that is what I have experience with.

After a lot of research and after witnessing the "autopsies" I was and am thoroughly convinced that to stop a bear YOU MUST BREAK BONE. Of course, a shot to the brain or spine will stop one, it is just that during a serious confrontation with a bear, that is too small a target to depend on. When MY skin (or that of another human) is in the equation, 70% "stops" don't hold my interest. I am only interested in as near 100% stops as I can get.

That, to me, means a heavy for the caliber, large meplat at over 1200 fps bullet in as big a diameter as I can get. We are talking handguns, here. That means, when all parameters are considered, a .44 magnum or .45 Colt (Ruger heavily loaded).

I have back packed in National Park (Smoky Mountains) for many, many years by myself. Mostly, this was done before back packing became popular. After the first day, I would not see another human until the last day as I was coming out. Park bears are not terribly aftraid of humans and many maulings take place that NEVER make the head lines in our National Parks (bad for business, doncha know)?

I am not ashamed to say that after I was treed by a momma bear with cubs, that I promised the Man above that I would NEVER venture in the park again without protection. I kept that promise... In those days I carried a Colt Commander with hard ball as I had no other suitable handgun. As soon as I could, I acquired a 4" .44 magnum. I find the recoiil with heavy loads to be unpleasant, but I CAN shoot it quite well (I just don't like shooting it very much). However, it WILL do the job IF I do my job.

I'm too old and feeble to be taking two week back pack trips these days, but I know what I know:mrgreen:

Dale53

[Dale53]

MY old bear guide in Canada lived amonst the bears year round. He trapped a fifty mile trap line in the winter (on snowshoes) He was a tough old bird that I greatly respected. He guided for black bears, of which, at that time were in abundance in the area. He had great respect for the bears (but oh how he hated porcupines and wolves).

He told me that about one in twenty of the bears would "try to take you". He further stated that they were emotionally unstable. The next day, the numbers of aggressive bears would be the same, but it would be a different bear. In other words, a bear would be non-aggressive most days but catch him or her on a off day (or with cubs) and the "attitude" will be different. You cannot depend on bear behaviour from day to day. They are just flat unpredictable. He had LOTS of experience with bear. His hunters would take 30-35 bears per week (two week season). Bears were considered "vermin" by most people in the area. The locals were amazed that we ate our bear meat as they considered bears to be scavengers.

I have had a goodly number of encounters with bears but, so far, never had to shoot one (except when hunting). I can't say I particularly enjoyed my encounters, but I wasn't sacred out of my wits, either. I must state here that I have never been charged by one. For that, I give thanks as they can be "Hell on wheels" when they are on the prod. Their speed is nearly unbelievable.

Dale53

[The Cod Father]

Hey Pilgrim.

I f you are interested in what a .45acp can be capable of when loaded properly . Just check out what Gunnar Christian is doing up here in Canada with his .45acp bear guns at Armco Plating www.armco-guns.com . He is working with 1911's and uses brass that he makes from cut down .308 win rounds.

[Pathfinder1cav]

Interesting thread,
I recently had to figure out a bear gun for my wife for use while out walking in Yellow Pine, ID. Due to the fires around this summer, there has been a significant bear problem in town (pop. 40) & 5 bears have had to be killed last month alone. Also damn big cougars & a pack of wolves around town.
To insure that she would carry it & be able to handle it (hit with it), it needed to also be light & not much recoil, but yet get good penetration.......???
Ended up with a CZ-52. 7.62X25 -life is full of compromises....Little bullet, but goes through body armour or both sides of a steel helmet- just told her to put the first one into the ground at his feet if only mildly agressive, but then if that didn't work, empty the magazine into him.
I've run off black bears many times with pine cones, but been treed before too.

[Larry Gibson]

44man

"I just said to deliberately shoot a charging bear to wound it would be stupid!"

That is what I thought I was saying and thought having and shooting (to kill) with any gun was better than curling up in a ball and hoping the bear won't hurt you too badly. Looks like we all were saying the same thing just didn't but I guess I just didn't say it right. Sorry for the confusion.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

No problem, I make the same mistakes a lot where I am not understood right off. It takes a lot of posts to straighten things out.

[Char-Gar]

Dale.... Your story from the Smokey Mountains brought to mind on of the few bear encounters I have had. I had taken a group of twelve teenages on a week long back pack trip into the Smokeys. On our way out we found a large black bear in the middle of the trail and showed no inclination to give us the right of way.

The young people hit the panic button and I was in the process of getting them settled down when a NPS Ranger came down the trail behind us. He had a sling shot in his rear pocket and he picked up a rock from the trail and bounced it on the bears side. The bear bawled and took off for the timber.

The year was 1972

[Pilgrim]

If you are interested in what a .45acp can be capable of when loaded properly . Just check out what Gunnar Christian is doing up here in Canada with his .45acp bear guns at Armco Plating. He is working with 1911's and uses brass that he makes from cut down .308 win rounds.

************************************************** *******************

Thank you for the web address. Apparently somebody in the business, and those in need of "light" carry guns for defense against bears seem to agree with my conclusion re: the .45 ACP for this purpose. I do not believe, or at least trust, that any handgun short of 45-70 levels of power will successfully break down any bear. Their shoulder bones are pretty massive. I'm willing to poke holes in the heart lung area and trust the Lord for success if pushed into such a confrontation.

I read everything I could find on their site on the .45-08 but nowhere near enough that I am willing to load some of them for my Kimber. I sent them an e-mail seeking more info. Hope he is able to respond.

Pilgrim

[waksupi]

Here's an intelligence test, and a try'er for the Darwin awards. This past weekend, a hunter in the Swan Valley, NW Montana, had a lion attack him. He dropped his rifle, and tried hiding behind a tree. The lion got him, and mauled him pretty well. Finally got out his pistol, and put some rounds into it, breaking the attack.
Personally, I would have kept hold of my rifle!