458X2 bolt gun accuracy loads???

[jethrow strait]

Seems like there's some straight-shooting rifles in this caliber hereabaouts-----Beagle's Springfield and Bass Ackward's long and varied experience with the .458 bore come to mind. Be much appreciative of any cast boolit load suggestions!

I already know how "great" the 45-70 is, and how "politically incorrect" the .450 M-word cartridge is, so hopefully comment on them can be avoided.

Much Obliged, jethrow

[Buckshot]

...............Um, lessee. I don't know where on the scale of things this cartridge is capable of, or at what level you would like to see accuracy. How about filling the case up with IMR3031 to where you can still seat a boolit and see what happens :D? At the least it should limber up the ole spine, and you may be the only one on the line who could clap their shoulder blades together.

As they say, "Hope this helps".

.............Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

Seems like there's some straight-shooting rifles in this caliber hereabaouts-----Beagle's Springfield and Bass Ackward's long and varied experience with the .458 bore come to mind. Be much appreciative of any cast boolit load suggestions!

I already know how "great" the 45-70 is, and how "politically incorrect" the .450 M-word cartridge is, so hopefully comment on them can be avoided.

Much Obliged, jethrow

Jethrow,

I thought you were getting a 450 Marlin?

The case capacity to the top of the case for the 450 M is 70 grains of water. 74 grains for the 45-70. 51 grains for the 458X2.

So .... your loads are going to mimic the 45-70 closer than a 458X2. But with some extra information that I will outline when the time comes, I can run you through Quickload, and get you close.

Since that can be a lengthy process however, I'd rather do that through a PM series of conversations.

[Blackwater]

Jethro, the only thing I can offer you is that in the .45/70's I have, the 4198's seem to burn a lot cleaner than 3031 with the 400's and lighter wt. bullets. I've used 3031 with 533 gr. bullets in my BPCR and that worked remarkably well, too.

My Guide Gun and Ruger #3 in .45/70 shoot at or near MOA with 300 condomized bullets and the 4198's, but H-322 has become my new favorite powder in the .45/70 for full power hunting loads. This SHOULD transfer across to the .458x2", I'd think.

These short, fat, straight cases just don't seem to be very difficult to load with good accuracy, and as you observed, there seem to be a lot of good, accurate rifles for this type of ctg. - yet another indication of their user friendliness. I doubt there's a bad choice among the whole lot of these calibers, and the .458 WM seems to be in the group as well, though it can be loaded up fully to deal with most any nasty critter that may invade your garden and snuff up your tubers. So far, I've resisted building a .458, but I have occasional relapses of "what if" periodically, so I have no idea what the future holds in stock. You just KNOW that sooner or later I'd hafta' find out what a 550 gr. bullet at Mach II would do to an ennocent little bunny, don't you? Ahhh, for the simple days of a .22 LR and a 16 ga. of my youth! Life was SO much simpler then! But then again, it's a LOT more "interesting" now, too! I guess that's why we have the various phases in life, right?

[jethrow strait]

Thanks Bass for the reality check, 51 grains is a bit of a surpise, since the little loading data I've seen seems virtually the same for the those two belted cases. I just went and chopped off a 300H&H resized case to 2", and got a 62gr. reading. Perhaps the standard mag cases have a different internal dimension. Don't have any 450M brass at the moment, but I'll be getting a couple new cases from a friend tomorrow. At any rate, let me knaw on that for a bit. Your point is well taken. Yes, just between you and me, I did order a M word chambering. I'm sure I can still change it to a 458X2, but I doubt that I will.

Buckshot, ole bud, I' m not quite sure "thanks" is the word I want for you, setting me up for a full-house SOCOM to the shoulder, and with expensive commercial 3031 at that! But, I do appreciate you taking the time to post.
Actually, surplus WC680 may have some application with the lighter(300 gr.) boolit loads. Recently got a jug of it for small case/small bore application. Never dreamed I'd be using it this way----although I have already found it useful in heavy boolit 357 rifle and 44 Mag rifle applications(but no book data on those uses).---------------jethrow

[beagle]

Jethrow....My 458 X2's been on the back burner all summer. I need to get back to it this fall and get it to feeding from the magazine and add some irons to it before I do anytrhing more with it.

I've made a bunch of cases from 7mm Mag and since they're so thick, you hardly ever lose one.

My best loads have been with heavy gas checked bullets but I'm still working on it.

It's so darn close to a .45/70 that I don't think you'd hurt with almost any .45/70 cast load.

The only problem I have with mine is that I got it throated pretty short. Hence, any bullet I use has to be seated pretty deep and that eats up powder space. IN fact, with a 500 grainer, it's hard to get enough 3031 in it to do much. I may open the throat a bit this fall/winter to get a bit more clearance as we have a .45 throating reamer in the group.

Once I get it to feeding, I think it will be ashooter. The single loaded rounds sure do all right and only the testing for the book has disrupted my experimenting with it.

Drop me an e-mail and I'll send you what loads I've tested./beagle

[MGySgt]

Jethrow....My 458 X2's been on the back burner all summer. I need to get back to it this fall and get it to feeding from the magazine and add some irons to it before I do anytrhing more with it.

/beagle

Beagle - I am interested to hear more on this 458X2 that apears to be built on 7mm Mag.

I am assuming that you started out with an action for the 7mm and rebarrelled/chambered it for this round.

This might be a better way to go then building a 45/70 on a Siamess Mauser action that I have benn kicking around.

I just happen to have a Savage 7mm mag in the gun safe. Feeding might even take care of it's self starting out with a 7mm.

Comments??

Drew

[Bass Ackward]

Thanks Bass for the reality check, 51 grains is a bit of a surpise, since the little loading data I've seen seems virtually the same for the those two belted cases. I just went and chopped off a 300H&H resized case to 2", and got a 62gr. reading. Perhaps the standard mag cases have a different internal dimension.


Jethrow,

The 458X2 has a losy reputation with cast that mostly comes from problems stemming from brass. The brass is generally thick, stiff, and tapered inside after cases are cut off, which can cause sizing problems with softer bullets. And because it is so thick, it can / will affect the ability of the brass to seal with low pressure loads. If you don't seal, you get erratic ES.

My Remington brass, that has been neck reamed, (removing a lot of brass) has an average weight of 216 grains. My new Norma brass, untouched, weighs an average of 192 grains. How much difference do you think that makes in terms of case volume and pressure?

The Norma 458 Winny brass is straighter, deeper inside. And better annealed too. This is ideal for using softer bullets and lower pressures. The Remington cases would size down a 14 BHN bullet giving it a smaller base. Which .... is .... why reaming is almost mandatory for cast.

Hornady makes 450M brass to some pretty consistent tollerances. And it is thinner because it was never expected to operate at Magnum pressure levels. This is an advantage over the 458X2 as far as cast goes. The down side is that you are hostage to Hornady for brass for the time being. No free lunch.

[jethrow strait]

Blackwater, appreciate hearing about your experience with 4198: I've got more of that than 3031. Still hoping that the surplus WC680 will work out. Being double-based it will not be as flexible, but the burn rate is just a wee bit faster than 4198. Say. are you familiar with the 375gr Saeco spitzer(#023) since you shoot BPCR. I've got one on the way, and some guy was calling it a great 200M offhand boolit for gallina. I'll be spending a day or two a week over there, once this Savage/458 Marlin project gets rolling. Normally shy away from pointy cast boolits, but I've got round flats in lighter and heavier weights, so I thought I'd give the 023 a try.

Bass, dang that's pithy data, much obliged. Can't wait to get my hands on those .450M cases tomorrrow to slice em open and compare. Thinner(than Mag) and more consistant case mouths has got to good for cast boolits. Imagine the pressure could still be increased in a bolt gun over the forty some k specked for the lever, but how much is the question.

Beagle thanks for the good offer. I imagine I'll be doing some 'rail work' on the Savage as well, but I'm into it now having just converted my 8mm Mauser/VZ24 to 45ACP. Making up for lost time with the short guns these days, but it's great to do some short-range offhand rifle shooting at the same time. On a clear Arizona day I can even see the .45 holes in a 50yd target!

[Blackwater]

Jethrow, I've yet to shoot my first BPCR match. I just love the gun and learning to load and shoot black. It's been just like starting all over again from scratch, learning to shoot the Holy Black. It's also driven me to HAVE to learn to cast really good bullets, and is likely one of the reasons I found this forum again. Now I'm wanting to learn to shoot cast in everything. Have shot a ton of bullets in the past, but always cast for volume, since I shot a LOT back then. Am hoping to get more shooting in now, and try to regain a bit of ability that's waned in the interim. Also, now that my eyes aren't that great from presbyopia, I want to shoot iron sights. Have 3 '03 Springfields, all high numbers or nickel steels with that paper thin front sight, and all I can say is those old soldiers of way back when could dang well SEE!!! The front sight just disappears for me when I try to use it! NOT conducive to good shooting! [smilie=l:

I also take my hunting a bit more leisurely these days, and just enjoy being "out there." Not nearly as important to get a deer, but my love of venison kicks in pretty quick anyway. I'm a meat hunter these days, and would as soon shoot a doe as a buck. With a 12 deer limit here in GA, I hope to stock the freezer with several, at least.

I do have a buddy up in the north GA mountains who lives near a good silhouette club, and he's got a Sharps now, so I really need to get up there and take his sorry butt to a match, and get both our feet wet. BPCR guys seem to be a pretty uniformly good and pleasant sort, and I think I'll really enjoy a shoot. Haven't shot competitively in about 20 years now, and I DO know that competition will teach me more and faster than a LOT more "lower 40" shooting will. That Saeco has kinda' intrigued me, but I'm still trying to keep my loads down to a minimum at this point. If you will, post something about the bullet when you get it all wrung out, if you don't mind. I doubt I'd be the only one interested in the results.

[BABore]

Jethrow Wrote;


I just went and chopped off a 300H&H resized case to 2", and got a 62gr. reading. Perhaps the standard mag cases have a different internal dimension. Don't have any 450M brass at the moment, but I'll be getting a couple new cases from a friend tomorrow.

I don't know anything about the 458x2 chambering, but based on reading this thread it looks like it's based on a H&H case shortened to 2". If your chamber is set up to headspace on the belt then the 450 Marlin brass probably won't work. The belt on the Marlin brass is purposely longer than the H&H brass so your bolt won't close on it.

[KB291]

Jethro,
My 458X2 was built by Norm Thompson in Colorado Springs, Co. It was based on a Rem 600 Mag action, rails opened up, a20 7/8" Douglas bbl, Fajen Mannlicker(sorry bout spelling)stock. An extra recoil lug was placed on the bbl approx 3" foward of the reciever lug.

My cases were cut off 458 Win brass trimed to exactly 2". Best load with jacketed bullets was 49 gr 4198 under Speer 400 gr. One hundred yard groups were 1 to 1 1/5 inches.Recoil was a bit rough and shooting sessions were short off a bench. Rifle had a Lyman 2.5 power scope w/post and crosshair.

Cast bullets didn't work out as the bbl was .459 and I couldn't get 460 G H & I dies.

The 458 Marlin case has a longer distance between the top of the belt and base of the rim by about .016" if I remember correctly. Dont know which case your rifle chambered for but maybe you could try the Win 458 brass.
Ken

[Bass Ackward]

Jethrow Wrote;



I don't know anything about the 458x2 chambering, but based on reading this thread it looks like it's based on a H&H case shortened to 2". If your chamber is set up to headspace on the belt then the 450 Marlin brass probably won't work. The belt on the Marlin brass is purposely longer than the H&H brass so your bolt won't close on it.

BA,

You are correct. But the beauty of the Savage platform is that you can change headspace with a $20.00 wrench. Since all makes of brass have different dimensions for the rim, you can adjust to what you need.

What has me wondering now is if I could headspace for a 450 Marlin and then shorten the brass what ever was needed. Might make for more space in the case. Would be a great option for cast loads.

Jethrow,

My Savage action required no modifications to feed from the magazine with all rounds and it was origionaly a 30-06. I can't tell you how it would be if you used a short action. But in truth, I put a follower in it to make it a single shot for bench testing which has been it's sole purpose in life to date.

[jethrow strait]

Estimado Bass, thank you for yet another brain-unlocking zinger. Of course, with the simple Savage headspacing I'll just dial-a-case length as long as there's barrel threads to turn. If the factory chambering doesn't please me, I'll just screw it in a bit more----going down, next stop 458X2, 458X1.9, 458X1.8, etc.---and just cut down the .450M cases accordingly. After examining the .450 Marlin cases today, I know I'll be staying with that chambering at least to start. IMHO the 450Ms are downright svelte(but still beefier in the head area than 45-70s) compared to the cut-down mag(7thru458)cases!----jethrow

[Buckshot]

............Just watch that barrel screwing in and out. The bolt head doesn't move, so you're moving the breechface further away and exposing more unsupported brass case. I'm sure you thought of that, so mentioned only in passing.

.............Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

............Just watch that barrel screwing in and out. The bolt head doesn't move, so you're moving the breechface further away and exposing more unsupported brass case. I'm sure you thought of that, so mentioned only in passing.

.............Buckshot

Richard,

You are correct. This is a little more .... advanced project than most might consider, so I have elected to not outline it here.

A lot of people truely badmouth the Savage platform, but it has a lot of merit for what it is. Another item of flexibility of the Savage platform is that bolt heads can be changed out as long as you stay with in a time line for these actions. Otherwise you need to change firepins etc, etc. And even firing pin length is fully adjustable. I have extra bolt faces in all sizes so that this action can be altered and made into most anything one hour later for @ $8.00 apiece. Just in case I get another urge.

[beagle]

It's a belted magnum case chopped to 2". Actually, I built mine on a high numbered Springfield that was a .30/338. It's an old wildcat that has been around for years.

A Springfield requires the bolt face to be opened. I have a friend in VT that has one built on some kind of Mauser and he likes it. His bolt face has been opened as well. The Siamese apparently doesn't require that.

Basically, the same case capacity as the .45/70 or .450 Marlin. The only advantage that I see over either of tthe two is that you can make cases from about any of the short belted magnums. The .450 Marlin won't work as the belt is too thick.

There may be some truth to the brass thickness theory. I just did this last summer and shot it some last winter so I'm still in the tinkering stage with it.

I had the .458 Win Mag but the throating was so long on the Number 1 that it wouldn't shoot cast so I traded it and rebarrelled with a Douglas #5 1-20 twist barrel. So far, it shoots all right. As I said, I need to work on the magazine feeding this winter and install irons and may look at the neck reaming thing and may throat it a bit but the initial 500 or so rounds I've shot through it look pretty promising.

Initial throating was for a 462560 Lyman bullet and that shoots all right.

Not a great cartridge if you already have a .45/70 but fun to play with using cast. In a high number Springfield, you have plenty of strength.

So I have to get off my butt and work on it some./beagle



Beagle - I am interested to hear more on this 458X2 that apears to be built on 7mm Mag.

I am assuming that you started out with an action for the 7mm and rebarrelled/chambered it for this round.

This might be a better way to go then building a 45/70 on a Siamess Mauser action that I have benn kicking around.

I just happen to have a Savage 7mm mag in the gun safe. Feeding might even take care of it's self starting out with a 7mm.

Comments??

Drew

[jethrow strait]

Yup, Buckshot, but what we got here most likely is a short and stubby lever-gun throat and leade as rendered by a standard .450M reamer. Dunno yet, cause it will be weeks before the barrel arrives, and I don't own a .450M lever. But most likely, a little more room up front and a longer COL will actually improve things a bit, especially since I don't plan on giving it no pachyderm stress test. I will be shooting primarily at Trapdoor velocities(1100-1400fps) for 100/200yd accuracy! Nada mas.

But, the larger question I have to ask is, why shorten the case to 458X2X1.9orX1.8 at all? The only worthwhile answer is for improved efficiency and accuracy---if course, avoiding clapping shoulder blades would be nice as well. I am not seeing improved efficiency in the shorter cases by just comparing Barnes' data in Cartridges of the World on the 458X1.5, the 458X2 and and a few current lover velocity(I like that typo)450M loads. Accuracy comparisons are still part of the 'great unknown'. Enlightenment is always appreciated.............jethrow

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