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1Shirt
10-30-2013, 10:00 PM
Have been working with a member who is relatively new to reloading. He came over today to load 7MM Rem! Had a new pound of H4350. I had him look up loads for 7 Rem in about half a dozen manuals. He did not know that there was more than one 4350, and that they had different burning rates. I keep a current list of burning rates posted at the bench and had him look up the differences.

It comes to mind that a lot of us old timers did not have the problem with powder identification years back that new loaders have today. Between Hogden, Winchester, Accurate, IMR, Vit, etc there are a lot of like numbers of powders with different rates today. A new loader might be able to get away with a starting load or a bit more of the wrong mfg. number of one powder, but a reversal of same could well be in excess of a max load. I have long been an advocate of encouraging new loaders to read, read again, find a mentor, and read more. In addition, I am amazed at the number of new powders that have hit the market in the last few years. 30 years ago I was happy with 3031, 4064, 4831, 2400, Ball C, Unique and Bullseye. As a caster, and having little money back then, if I could have 2400 and Unique, I could shoot. Now half of what I have listed above are marketed by two or three different companies and most have different burning rates. This is why I push reading and mentoring of new reloaders.

I am sure that some will follow up on this with more specifics than I mention, but I do not have my manuals and burning rate charts in front of me to review and post. Right now there is a bumper crop of new reloaders due to fear of government. Many of them are in a hurry. Many of them are wanting to load 3 or 4 ctgs right off, where most of us old timers started with probably one handgun and or one rifle ctg. Often that was all that we could afford.
The new breed of reloader regardless of age, is I think more affluent and dives in by throwing money into reloading, often without adequate prepration
Just my opinion!
1Shirt!:killingpc

gbrown
10-30-2013, 10:12 PM
Good info. I have Scot Solo 1250, there is also Accurate Solo 1250, not the same, don't get 'em mixed up. As you said, check and re-check. I notice there are a lot of HXXXX and IMRXXXX. Different stuff, can't interchange data, that I have seen.

sljacob
10-30-2013, 10:27 PM
Good post

Checking and double checking manuals was something my father preached repeatedly when I first started helping him reload some 40 odd years ago, also no short cuts, take your time and do things right.

skykingjohn
10-30-2013, 10:28 PM
this is a great post when i first started to reload 270 winchester i got imr 4350 and all most loaded for hodgdon h4350


140 GR. SFT SP IMR IMR 4350 .277" 3.280" 49.0 2712 43,800 CUP 53.2 2916 51,000 CUP

140 GR. SFT SP Hodgdon H4350 .277" 3.280" 49.0 2737 44,500 CUP 52.0 2870 50,400 CUP

as you can see they are different SO READ THE POWDER CAN AND MAKE SURE THE POWDER IS THE SAME AS THE LOAD DATA:p

codgerville@zianet.com
10-30-2013, 10:42 PM
Very good information, all of it.

labradigger1
10-30-2013, 10:51 PM
Great advice, something i may add that i teach my son is if there is ANY doubt about a cartridge as in correct powder, did i double charge? Or any uncertanty throw it out or set it somewhere else to pull the boolit.
Your eyes and health are to important.

trapper9260
10-31-2013, 06:07 AM
As what is stated about new ones getting into it and never done it before jump into it for more then one cart. that after alot of them find out how much is into it and cost some back off.and waite for the factory is there to get.As for if I am not sure if I put the right amount of powder .i just dump it and re do it and re check also.good advice about take your time .You will gain more that way and also you will also have the cart. shoot the way you want also.

bikerbeans
10-31-2013, 06:21 AM
Couldn't agree more. Some the labeling makes me wonder why powder companies lawyers let them do it. Then they go the other way too. Powders with names that couldn't be confused but are identical; H110 & W296, H414 & W760, etc.


BB

1Shirt
10-31-2013, 07:41 AM
You are right on that biker, couldn't agree more!

Got to thinking after some of the responses about the mentoring of new reloaders. Am sure that I have/had discussed the burning rates of powders and different manufactures, but probably only once with people I have mentored. However, it maybe a mistake to not repeatedly emphasize it, along with the advantage of having more than one reloading manual for comparison reading and checking repeatedly.

Another factor while on the subject for newbees, particularly for cast boolit shooters is the issue of double charging of fast burning powders for cast loads where the powder charge is less than 1/2 the capacity of the case (up to the mouth of the case). I shoot a lot of 2400 behind cast loads in a number of cartridges from 30-30 thru 45-70, and almost all of them are less than 1/2 case loads. My method of verification of load is to weigh all finished loads for consistency on a little digital scale. This of course requires that all the cases be of the same mfg, and preferably of the same batch, same head stamp etc. Even then, there can sometimes, with some brass be as much as 2-3 grain variance in case weight. It would be nice if we could all afford Lapua or Norma brass which is probably about as spot on weight wise as any brass on the market. That however is beyond my wallet, and probably so with a lot of other loaders. So when I have a new (often range pick up) batch of brass, I take the time to weigh like head stamps. I keep them within 2 gr. for my cast loads with less than half the case capacity. If my finished cast rifle loads are more than 3-4 grains over, I pull the bullet. Time consuming, but pays off in the safety area, and I learned the hard way.

Accordingly, when I am mentoring a new loader of cast rifle bullets I go thru my speal repeatedly that with less than 1/2 case capacity loads, double charges can easily occur. There are a lot of threads on this forum about reduced (from mouse fart up) loads for tree rats with for example with a 223 on up thru 30-30, 308, etc. I discourage new loaders from trying these because often unique or bullseye etc. is used in very small quantities. Double charges of small quantities of the very fast burning powders, just might turn a nice firearm no longer serviceable, and possibly injure the shooter. Reduced loads, and specialty loads are for shooters who have been at reloading for awhile. Guess I have rambled on long enough!
1Shirt!

w5pv
10-31-2013, 09:31 AM
I have been reloading since the early 60's and never gave it much thought until some one asked if the load I was using 4831 was Imr or H.Since I am loading IMR from the early 60's I still haven't looked up the burn rates or the difference in H and IMR.But I will

Three44s
11-03-2013, 01:58 AM
Back in the day, there was no internet .......... there was reading .......... it's still the only real way to cut your teeth in this hobby!

The instant gratification types of today are doomed to blow guns up!

They want it RIGHT NOW without any muss or fuss ......... you'd think they were a bunch of Donald Trumps and late for a stock broker's meeting!!

Three 44s

HighHook
11-03-2013, 03:00 AM
I have to agree on reading several books to make sure things are alright. My father taught me that and i am teaching all my under me...

Lance Boyle
11-03-2013, 10:02 AM
great points.

I always tell new guys to pick on cartridge and get it down well before moving on to others. You got to learn to walk before you run. I have a great co worker who wants to learn but due to busy family life issues he's not done so yet. He's about there and I gave him a couple manuals, an older 90's Nosler and I gave him my new brand new Lee manual I bought here. We live an hour apart and I never got him over here to sit down and make up some .223 Rem his chosen starting point for his fur bearer hunting. Sadly for this endeavor I'm moving and won't be around. Most of my gear is already packed and/or moved. We've discussed equipment needs and were talking though some of the processes last night while working.

I suspect he'll buckle down and get set up after Christmas. I expect a few phone calls.

I always noticed all the variants of 4895 and the couple 4064's and 4350's. I never used the Accurate brand versions though, mostly IMR or Hodgden.

aspangler
11-03-2013, 10:10 AM
This might make a good sticky.

Three44s
11-03-2013, 10:19 AM
I am glad so many of "us" try to work with today's newbies ....... we need new blood coming in all the time to replace our seasoned handloaders to keep the craft alive and the government at bay.

And I try to do my part ........... as well. But I get so frustrated with the young'ins I work with .......

If I had someone who was taking me under their wing when I was getting started ........ I'd sure as $%#%! would have listened very intently ........ but I did not ....... sure a few acquaintances crossed my path but no one really diligent about the craft AND willing to really open up and spill the beans ......

One guy who was a cut above but never really said much ......... retired his gear to my care for the tidy sum of 50 bucks ... his price, no arm twisting ...... I thank him for that .............

I found out years later that he'd been a LEO down in Arizona or there abouts and had to kill a man in the line of duty ........ he never came to grips with what he had to do even though it was totaly justified ...... and he never really loved guns and loading after that ..........

Whenever I use some of his equipment ........ or components ...... I pause a moment to wish him well ......... he's gone now and I hope he is at peace!

(Thank you again Clair)!


Three 44s

sparkz
11-03-2013, 11:01 AM
I just hAD this question about
IMR 4198 vs H4198
I can read the burn chart but asked just the same,
I would think someone would just change the number so you could not confuse the two

we did load 22gn IMR4198 under 150gn in 3006,
and
23gn IMR 4198 under 150gn in 30-30

both are middle road in Hogeday load book for H4198
but I had some concern about the powder and had asked about it here for the seasoned loaders opinion/s

(seems dumb to have almost same numbers on 2 diff powders)
Patrick

Goatwhiskers
11-03-2013, 11:05 AM
Lot's of great advice about consulting manuals, preferably several, about loads. What's scary is that I heard from sources across the country is that many new gun purchasers worried about ammo scarcity also jumped into reloading. They buy all the equipment and components, but never buy a single manual!! Guess they rely on the internet for info, I see lots of load requests on various fora, and we all know that if it's on the internet it has to be true. That's why you never see me at public ranges, it's dangerous. GW

Hardcast416taylor
11-03-2013, 11:45 AM
Kinda answers the question about why do I have about 12 +/- old and new loading manuals on the shelves over my bench.Robert

John Guedry
11-03-2013, 01:34 PM
I sure hope the individuals lucky enough to have a mentor appreciate the time and trouble that person is taking to instruct them. When I got started I had no one,so it was what I could get from books.( Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet.) Thankfully I have never had a FTF or a KABOOM. More luck than sense.

9w1911
11-03-2013, 01:42 PM
What can you say about someone who does not want to read? so often on other forums you get the: I just bought this powder because that was all that was there will it work in a 41 mag?, or they will say they can just find a few loads online and cannot find their true load. When a new reloader whats to go from A to Z in a weekend well thats just natural selection if they make a mistake.

1Shirt
11-04-2013, 12:06 PM
Goatwiskers, Agree with you on public ranges, but I do shoot on public INDOOR ranges where there are solid walls between me and other shooters. I belong to a small private club, and the vast majority of members are seasoned shooters, reloaders and match shooters. Also agree with having old manuals (and I have a bunch of them) for cross reference, and comparison. There are just a whole whoop more powders on the market today to confuse not only new reloaders, but even some of us old timers.
1Shirt!

Down South
11-04-2013, 05:20 PM
I usually use at least two good manuals to work up a new load. Sometimes I use up to four manuals. I like to compare all of the data before I begin.

Baja_Traveler
11-04-2013, 05:34 PM
And then there is the danger of taking for gospel a load recommended on the internet (yes, even here). There are lots of loads that simply are not listed in the various manuals, but enterprising souls have worked them up on their own. I've duplicated plenty of loads that were recommended here and elsewhere, but every one of them I have continued to search and verify from several different sources that the particular load is kosher. It's too easy to mis-type a number and end up with a disaster waiting to happen...

1Shirt
11-06-2013, 01:13 PM
You are so right on the mistype on the net! Easy mistake to make, and an obvious reason for printed verification from more than one source!
1Shirt!