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el roboto
10-30-2013, 09:31 PM
Alright guys im not sure if this is the right section or not to post this, if not I apologize.I finnally have everything and am trying to get all my dies set to make my first boolits. Heres the problem im having. I have removed my 1911 barrel to make sure everything fits correctly while setting my dies. All the data I can find loading my .45 acp rounds with unique (all non cb data of course) gives a mol of 1.2. Problem im having is, I have to set all the way down to 1.170 to get my finished taper crimped rounds to sit flush with the barrel hood. This puzzles me as my factory gold dot ammo will sit slightly below flush at a length of 1.208. Im thinking it may have to do with my cb loaded cases buldging more then factory ammo. I am really puzzled here as im in the dark and theres so much to figure out with this stuff. Is it safe to load them at the 1.170? Or is that to deep? Any help is appreciated.

codgerville@zianet.com
10-30-2013, 09:40 PM
Alright guys im not sure if this is the right section or not to post this, if not I apologize.I finnally have everything and am trying to get all my dies set to make my first boolits. Heres the problem im having. I have removed my 1911 barrel to make sure everything fits correctly while setting my dies. All the data I can find loading my .45 acp rounds with unique (all non cb data of course) gives a mol of 1.2. Problem im having is, I have to set all the way down to 1.170 to get my finished taper crimped rounds to sit flush with the barrel hood. This puzzles me as my factory gold dot ammo will sit slightly below flush at a length of 1.208. Im thinking it may have to do with my cb loaded cases buldging more then factory ammo. I am really puzzled here as im in the dark and theres so much to figure out with this stuff. Is it safe to load them at the 1.170? Or is that to deep? Any help is appreciated.
What bullet are you using?

joesig
10-30-2013, 09:40 PM
I just checked mine. With a Lee 200gr SWC with the shoulder about 1/32 proud of the case, COL is 1.171. I doubt that extra .001 will save you from any problems. Looks like what you loaded will work just fine.

el roboto
10-30-2013, 09:43 PM
Im sorry I ment to post the boolit. Its a 230 grain flat point boolit cast from a lee 6 cavity mold. It measures out at 4530 diameter, a perfect .1 over my bore which slugged out at 4520.

runfiverun
10-30-2013, 10:27 PM
since you ain't using factory gold dot's in your cast rounds and since you are gonna start a bit low and work your way up with YOUR loads in YOUR gun.
i'm failing to see a problem.

btw my oal for my 9mm cast loads is 0.95 yep that's short.

el roboto
10-30-2013, 10:42 PM
since you ain't using factory gold dot's in your cast rounds and since you are gonna start a bit low and work your way up with YOUR loads in YOUR gun.
i'm failing to see a problem.

btw my oal for my 9mm cast loads is 0.95 yep that's short.

Just clueless as to why im having this issue. Is it absolutly imperative that the case be flush with the barrel hood?

KYCaster
10-30-2013, 11:09 PM
Is it absolutly imperative that the case be flush with the barrel hood?


YES! Absolutely!

It's a rare 45ACP that doesn't work well with a .452 dia. boolit. The extra .001 may be the cause of the "bulge" you mention.....(or not?)

Also make sure you have a proper taper crimp with the case mouth at about .470 dia.

Find the OAL that will pass the plunk test, then start with a low powder charge and work up till you find the load you like.

Good luck.
Jerry

MtGun44
10-30-2013, 11:50 PM
LOA is only relevant to compare combustion chamber volumes for published loads. The front part
ONLY means something during the feeding and chambering part of the process. Make that part
work to set your LOA and then compare the BASE location to a factory load to see if you are
making a larger or smaller combustion chamber. If yours is smaller than the one used to get the
load data - then your pressures will be higher. Adjust powder to correct for this.

Using the dismounted barrel is exactly correct. Worrying because one LOA doesn't match another is
totally spinning your wheels.

Bill

ultramag
10-31-2013, 06:13 AM
It sounds like you're loading the Lee TL452-230-TC. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Ed. lists data for that bullet and it lists an OAL of 1.170". I've had to take it down to 1.160" to get the load 100% reliable across the board in all my .45's.

You are doing fine and are on the right track, so get back to it!

el roboto
10-31-2013, 11:44 AM
It sounds like you're loading the Lee TL452-230-TC. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Ed. lists data for that bullet and it lists an OAL of 1.170". I've had to take it down to 1.160" to get the load 100% reliable across the board in all my .45's.

You are doing fine and are on the right track, so get back to it!

Excellent, thanks for the information. The only thing thats still worrying me is theres BARLEY a sliver of shoulder exposed on the boolit. Its loaded almost to the top of the shoulder, and my taper crimp barley leaves enough case mouth to get a fingernail on. however, this length and this amount of taper crimp seems to be whats needed for the bullet to seat just below flush of the barrel hood.

runfiverun
10-31-2013, 01:47 PM
I seat most of my 45 boolits so that the front shoulder is even with the case mouth.
for one 1911 I actually bump the case mouth against a roll crimp, it shoots better this way.

a semi-auto round that doesn't feed reliably 100% of the time makes the gun a paper weight.
feeding comes first.
then work up the load until you have 100% ejection.
then work on accuracy.
unique has a lot of lee-way in the 45 case.
if you deep seat drop the load and come back up until the ejection is 100% positive then tweak it a bit until the groups shrink or get bigger.
once you got it you then make up a pile of rounds and go shoot them.

David2011
10-31-2013, 04:29 PM
LOA definitely varies with boolit profile. If you load a swc to max book oal specs it won't even fit in the magazine. The case mouth should be taper crimped to .469- .471" to assure proper head spacing and feeding. You don't want a roll crimp.

David

el roboto
10-31-2013, 06:36 PM
Just shot my first ever bullets. Tried some with 5 grains of unique and some with 6 grains. Definatly a noticeable difference in recoil. Took a rest at the range and noticed both shot left, the 6 grain bullets shot further left but from rested shot a ragged hole. I had 3 jams in 50 rounds. 2 where while chambering the first round and I think I may have been short shucking on those two rounds cause I was so busy trying to monitor everything. The other came during feeding. My friend also shot and had 0 failure to feeds. It could have been me because I was so nervous. I am going to work up a couple more batches for this weekend including some round nose rather then flat nose batches and see how they do. If I continue to get some falure to feeds my next step I think will be trying to resize down to .452 because the cases do seem to buldge a lot. Just got home and plan to inspect my barrel for lead. At the range I did notice a hair width sliver of lead near the end of the muzzle inside the barrel. Not sure how much leading is normal.

el roboto
10-31-2013, 08:01 PM
wow ton of leading. The raised grooves were completly slicked with lead. and no clue what the cause is. Frustrating :(

Wolfer
10-31-2013, 08:22 PM
It's fairly common to see some lead. Sometimes it's not stuck down and the next boolit pushes it out.
I don't ever see that much though. What lube are you using? You only want to change one thing at a time so you will know what the problem was.

el roboto
10-31-2013, 08:30 PM
It's fairly common to see some lead. Sometimes it's not stuck down and the next boolit pushes it out.
I don't ever see that much though. What lube are you using? You only want to change one thing at a time so you will know what the problem was.

The lee liquid allox/johnsons paste wax.

Wolfer
10-31-2013, 08:44 PM
Did the leading brush right out or did it take some scrubbing? I don't shoot auto much so I probably can't help. I would think your lube is ok.
I'm just killing time here until some of these auto boys chime in.

Did accuracy fall off?

el roboto
10-31-2013, 09:08 PM
accuracy was great. Im able to brush most of it out with the exception of some that is down inside the grooves.

el roboto
10-31-2013, 09:21 PM
Hm. Im wondering if it was lead. It wouldnt wipe out with just a patch, it was dull grey and when i scraped on it it was metallic and shiny looking like lead. Im just suprised it brushed out so easy. Wondering if it could be a combination of the paste wax/lead/and dirty unique powder that was making up the coating. I have no clue im so newbish to this. Thinking about trying to lube the next bullets with strait allox and seeing what happens.

BNE
10-31-2013, 09:55 PM
I THINK it is probably lead. You are on the right track by measruing and measuring and paying attention to what you are seeing. I ALWAYS shoot my reloads first, before letting anyone else shoot them. I want to feel the recoil and inspect the brass.

"I think will be trying to resize down to .452 because the cases do seem to buldge a lot."
sometimes my .45 acps look like they are bulging but they measure ~.473" so I think what I am seeing is slight variations in the wall thickness of the different brass suppliers. The re-sizing die makes the OD the same and then the boolit pushes it out in the seal area. As mentioned above if it passes the "plunk test" it should be fine. I typically load a magazine and then cycle them through the action. (Obviously paying attention to safety when doing this.)

As for your leading issue, I am going to defer to the experts here and hopefully learn myself.

el roboto
10-31-2013, 10:06 PM
what is strange is it was mostly on the petruding grooves. It followed them and slicked them all up. Im wondering if the alloy might be to soft. im using strait ww unquench to cast my boolits.

454PB
10-31-2013, 10:57 PM
If leading is truly a problem, accuracy will go bad quickly. From what you describe, I doubt you have a leading problem.

ultramag
11-01-2013, 04:58 AM
what is strange is it was mostly on the petruding grooves. It followed them and slicked them all up. Im wondering if the alloy might be to soft. im using strait ww unquench to cast my boolits.

You don't have a too soft problem with air dropped WW's either. If it was gonna be anything related to boolit hardness it would be too hard for a low pressure .45 ACP round. All the .45 ACP boolits I've cast so far have been of lowly 'ol range scrap and no leading issues.

el roboto
11-01-2013, 11:37 AM
You don't have a too soft problem with air dropped WW's either. If it was gonna be anything related to boolit hardness it would be too hard for a low pressure .45 ACP round. All the .45 ACP boolits I've cast so far have been of lowly 'ol range scrap and no leading issues.

I did read an article that lead following the rifleing of the barrel was an indication of the bullet being cast to hard. Perhaps i should order some pure lead and mix it with the ww's. Though i am not sure of the ratio i should use.

jcameron996
11-01-2013, 11:56 AM
Check your wheel weight stash. If you have a bunch of stick ons they are just about pure lead. All my .45s have been loaded with a 50/50 mix of stick on and clip on wheel weights and lubed with the same lube you are using. I have noticed a small amount of leading but nothing to be concerned with. That would give you someplace to start and not have to order any pure lead. Good luck.

el roboto
11-01-2013, 01:01 PM
Hmm, thinking back i did fire the minimum 5 gr rounds alongside the 6 geain rounds. Perhaps it was the lower velocity 5gr rounds that caused the leading. I think my first thing will be to double lube my bullets and try only the higher velocity 6 grain rounds.

el roboto
11-01-2013, 01:02 PM
Check your wheel weight stash. If you have a bunch of stick ons they are just about pure lead. All my .45s have been loaded with a 50/50 mix of stick on and clip on wheel weights and lubed with the same lube you are using. I have noticed a small amount of leading but nothing to be concerned with. That would give you someplace to start and not have to order any pure lead. Good luck.

Unfortunatlymy wws never seem to have any stick ons mixed in.

jcameron996
11-01-2013, 01:17 PM
Be careful on the "double lubing" your bullets. If you get too much lube on the bullets it will build up on your bullet seater and cause your OAL to get progressively shorter. Its a pain to have to repeatedly remove the seater stem and clean it off and then get it set again. Don't ask me how I know.

Wolfer
11-01-2013, 05:22 PM
Be careful on the "double lubing" your bullets. If you get too much lube on the bullets it will build up on your bullet seater and cause your OAL to get progressively shorter. Its a pain to have to repeatedly remove the seater stem and clean it off and then get it set again. Don't ask me how I know.

I know how you know!

If accuracy doesn't fall off I don't consider leading an issue. Most of my bores a pretty dirty and I clean them ever 300 to 500 rds, maybe.

el roboto
11-01-2013, 06:52 PM
I know how you know!

If accuracy doesn't fall off I don't consider leading an issue. Most of my bores a pretty dirty and I clean them ever 300 to 500 rds, maybe.

I am perhaps to anal about cleaning my guns, as I clean them after every range trip even if its 20 rounds. I only fired around 40 rounds though and the rifleing was completly slicked with lead so I imagine accuracy would have to fall of at some point below 100 rounds. I typically shoot 100-200 rounds during a range visit so im worried it will become a problem. Im still somewhat murkey on just how hard leading is to clean out as about half the internet sources say its easy and half say its a nightmare lol.

tcbnick
11-01-2013, 06:57 PM
Did you happen to clean out all of the copper fouling from previous shooting? Lead will stick to copper real easy.

jcameron996
11-01-2013, 07:00 PM
First of all I commend you on being dilligent on cleaning your firearms. Wish I could say I did as well. I wouldn't worry too much about cleaning the lead out. Get some bronze wool or all copper scrubbing pads. Chore boy works well if you can find it. Whatever you use check it with a magnet first to make sure it is not steel. Wrap it around a bronze brush and go to scrubbing. I am still on the quest to find a 9mm load that doesn't lead so I have had a bit of experience. I have never had one that took more than 15-20 minutes to get cleaned out.

el roboto
11-01-2013, 07:55 PM
First of all I commend you on being dilligent on cleaning your firearms. Wish I could say I did as well. I wouldn't worry too much about cleaning the lead out. Get some bronze wool or all copper scrubbing pads. Chore boy works well if you can find it. Whatever you use check it with a magnet first to make sure it is not steel. Wrap it around a bronze brush and go to scrubbing. I am still on the quest to find a 9mm load that doesn't lead so I have had a bit of experience. I have never had one that took more than 15-20 minutes to get cleaned out.

Thanks for the information. Im wondering how much leading is normal leading? I dont want to spend endless hours obessing over trying to formulate some perfect non-leading load that perhaps doesnt even exist? Is leading just a part of shooting cbs? I dont mean a few pieces of lead but I mean, is it pretty common for rifle grooves to be slicked with lead? Im willing to do what it takes to make this work even if it entails extra cleaning time because copper jacketed bullets are just way to expensive, and to be honest im having a blast casting these boolits. Also, is there ANY amount of soap that will remove the LLA smell off your hands lol.

Wolfer
11-01-2013, 09:04 PM
A lot of people will disagree with this but unless a bore is leaded bad a couple jacketed rounds will clean it right out.
I believe Paco Kelly ( I could be wrong ) seats a jacketed flat base backwards over a medium load. One of these every so often cleans em right up.

I routinely shoot jacketed and cast with no cleaning between with no problems.

el roboto
11-01-2013, 11:30 PM
A lot of people will disagree with this but unless a bore is leaded bad a couple jacketed rounds will clean it right out.
I believe Paco Kelly ( I could be wrong ) seats a jacketed flat base backwards over a medium load. One of these every so often cleans em right up.

I routinely shoot jacketed and cast with no cleaning between with no problems.

I've seen a few people suggest doing this, and a few others saying it could damage your barrel. Personally I dont see how it could damage a barrel unless the leading is extreame.

WallyM3
11-01-2013, 11:41 PM
It might "compress" the lead rather than shoveling it out, but barrels are stronger than both materials discussed. And the pressures that might be generated by such procedures.

This may not be the most compelling support I can supply, but I believe EK used this type of barrel to develop his notion of the .44 Mag.
86130

el roboto
11-02-2013, 03:37 PM
Ok guys, loaded up 50 more rounds with 6 grains and double lubed them. Took to the range again today. shot about 40 rounds off, had the gunk buildup that i think might not be leading now. Shot a couple factory rounds through the gun (7) wanted to see how they kicked compared to the 6 grains of unique loads I was shooting. They kicked significantly less. They also cleaned all the stuff out of my barrel. I then loaded up my last 10 cast rounds and fired them. Below is a picture of whats coating my rifleing. I believe its not lead but is instead the LLA/JPW lube because there is a lot of the gray substance on the feed ramp. I do see what looks like some metallic slivers in there. Does this look like lead coating my rifling or does it look like lube?

86217

el roboto
11-02-2013, 03:41 PM
Also on another note, after shooting the 50 rounds the VERY LAST round of the day jammed on me. When I imspected the failure to feed the bullet was cocked somewhat sideways in the throat. Wondering if maybe im tamper crimping just a little to much? Or maybe its just the junk factory 1911 magazine, though I never had any problems with factory ammo through it.