Success with the .308 in the 2,300 to 2,400 fps range?

[RickinTN]

Hello All,
I'm going to begin working with a Remington 700 chambered in .308 Winchester. It is a 24" barrel with a 1-12 twist. I have several molds in the 160 to 180 grain range and think I have more than one which should work at these velocities. The powders I have that seem to be good candidates are H4198, IMR3031, Varget, 5744, Re7, IMR 4350 and probably others.
My question is: For those of you that have achieved good accuracy in the 2,300 to 2,400 fps velocity range which powder/powders seem to work best for you?
Thanks in advance for your help,
Rick

[ShooterAZ]

IMR 4895 and IMR 4064 have given me the best accuracy at higher velocity. Varget is on my list to test next.

[jmort]

you should try some RL 7 and RL 15

[runfiverun]

i'm down the burn rate list further.
rl-19 and 4831 are more in the area I look when starting out.

[jmort]

Never considered RL 19. Not sure if I have ever seen any data for it and cast.
Just checked, and Alliant does not have a single load for .308 and RL 19. No reason it could not work, as it is recommended for .30-06.

[RickinTN]

I forgot to mention I do have 4895 and I think I know it would be pretty popular. I do have 4831, both flavors, but was thinking IMR4350 might be about as slow as I wanted to go at least for now.
Thanks for all the replies and keep them coming,
Rick

[jmort]

I do have 4895

There is a whole lot of cast bullet data for 4895

[dverna]

Rick

I am going to be working with the same rifle/caliber. Bear in mind intended use is important. In my case, my application will be target use only, so bullet hardness is of no concern. If you are looking for a hunting bullet, a "softer" alloy may influence outcome.

Also, "good accuracy" is a vague term. For some, 2 moa at 100 yards is excellent and for others that is mediocre. My goal is 1.5 moa out to 500 yards - so I will likely need at least 1 moa at 100 yards. I am not suggesting my needs define accuracy - I only wish to demonstate that without a frame of reference one mans treasure my be another mans trash.

For my own search - I have dismised faster powders like 4198. They will not achieve velocity at reasonable pressures. I am starting with Varget as it works with well with jacketed bullets. I think H4895 is another good choice as it will give a lower pressure.

Don Verna

[RickinTN]

Don,
I probably should have gone into more detail. I will say it is for hunting although one or two shots on game animals would be all I would shoot in a year, primarily whitetails. I think I may have a hog hunt lined up in Texas next year and hopefully would get several shots. Coyotes may be another story. Most will be for target shooting. I'm also beginning to work with a new alloy to me. It is 3.4 sb, 3.7 sn, and .30 cu. I have no personal experience with the alloy containing copper but understand it has good characteristics for a hunting alloy. It is supposed to be "tough" enough to withstand the higher pressures of higher velocity loads. My bullets are at this point heat-treated @ 425 degrees and quenched in ice water. I have no hardness testing equipment but expect a bhn in the 18 to 20 range. At least 3 of my potential bullets have a meplat of .220" or so. I also want to work with the RCBS 165gr. silhouette bullet but am on the fence as far as how the small meplat will work for a hunting bullet. The added velocity I'm thinking may make the meplat less important. My hunting shots should be under 200 yards, and I think most opportunities would be at 100 yds or less. I would like to achieve accuracy of 1 to 1 1/2" @ 100 yds.
Thanks for the help,
Rick

[Win94ae]

I have had good success using IMR 4350 in my 30-06. I used that so it would fill the case, therefore not needing a filler.
I use Varget and IMR 4064 in the 20" barreled 30-30, a compressed load only gets me to 2250fps.

Both loads have sub-moa precision. The alloy is 2 parts lead to 1 part Linotype.

[rintinglen]

I have had good results with H414 and WW760. But any of the slow-for-cartridge powders should work. You are going to have to pay close attention to each detail to have good outcomes. Lube, sizing and metal hardness, as well as bullet design will play a big role in determining how well you succeed. They will all have to be as close to perfect as you can manage. IME, it is a lot harder to get a CB to shoot well over 2200 fps than it is at 1600 fps. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Larry Gibson]

AA4350, RL19 and H4831SC and RL22.

Bullet design, fit and alloy are of paramount importance if you are to attain consistent accuracy in the 2300 - 2400 fps range, particularly beyond 100 yards in a 12" twist barrel.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

Rick
For my own search - I have dismised faster powders like 4198. They will not achieve velocity at reasonable pressures. I am starting with Varget as it works with well with jacketed bullets. Don Verna

there may not be any data available.
but this is how it works, you are trading gas volume for pressure.
we ain't dealing with jaxketed rounds but we can make some assumptions based on their data.
if we all followed the books none of would be shooting cast at 23-2400 fps very well.

[geargnasher]

Hello All,
I'm going to begin working with a Remington 700 chambered in .308 Winchester. It is a 24" barrel with a 1-12 twist. I have several molds in the 160 to 180 grain range and think I have more than one which should work at these velocities. The powders I have that seem to be good candidates are H4198, IMR3031, Varget, 5744, Re7, IMR 4350 and probably others.
My question is: For those of you that have achieved good accuracy in the 2,300 to 2,400 fps velocity range which powder/powders seem to work best for you?
Thanks in advance for your help,
Rick

Try the powders Run and Larry recommended. HOWEVER, for those of us who have achieved good accuracy at the velocities you mention, powder selection was by far the least challenging obstacle.

Gear

[popper]

Rick #9 post, your good. I do 165 gr with 4895, easy 23-2400 in 1:10 carbine.

[RickinTN]

Thanks for all the responses. I think I've decided to start with IMR4895, IMR 4350, and probably Varget. I have several manuals (a dozen plus) and as you all know data for the .308 and IMR 4350 is scarce at best. I'm thinking of starting in the 40'ish grain range with the RCBS 165 silhouette bullet which actually weighs 174 grains or so in my alloy ready to load. I'm also thinking of starting around 35 grains of IMR 4895 with the same bullet. What is the consensus here on my starting load choices?
Thanks for all the help,
Rick

[runfiverun]

load fine, boolit won't do it.
been there done that [okay didn't do it because the boolit won't]
you don't have enough bearing length to stop the stripping you'll encounter. [even with a harder alloy]
the rcbs 30-150 fngc is gonna get you in the 23-2400 area without too much boolit damage but it's accuracy will suffer some because of other reasons [throat] in the 308.

[offshore44]

load fine, boolit won't do it.
been there done that [okay didn't do it because the boolit won't]
you don't have enough bearing length to stop the stripping you'll encounter. [even with a harder alloy]
the rcbs 30-150 fngc is gonna get you in the 23-2400 area without too much boolit damage but it's accuracy will suffer some because of other reasons [throat] in the 308.

So, what top end did you get with the RCBS 165 silhouette bullet? Just curious; I'm starting to play with that one a bit in a 1:10 twist barrel. Looking at a 1:12 twist eventually.

[RickinTN]

Run,
Thank you for your post. I think I'm about to experience a learning moment here!:-P My RCBS silhouette bullet drops with an almost .302" nose so I will get good engraving in my .300" bore. Is this enough to overcome or at least help with the stripping? Two of my other bullets are in fact the RCBS 30-150-fp and the NOE version of the Ranchdog 311-165 with lube grooves. I'm thinking that because of the longer bullet body and shorter nose of these bullets you are telling me these may be a better candidate for higher velocity? The larger meplat of each being a benefit in a hunting situation. I'm thinking somehow you've had a peek at the throat in my rifle as well.
Please continue as I'm all ears!
Rick

[runfiverun]

the 165 silhouette boolit is a fine accuracy boolit.
http://s417.photobucket.com/user/_DnA_/media/TargetRickysboolits.jpg.html?sort=3&o=396
this target tells the tale of a straight up 20 shot target shot with one lot of brass and foulers recorded, these are 4 different 5 shot groups with the majority of the foulers a tick high in the black.
there is one win brass shot in the orange and three shots with federal brass.
yeah the target was shot upside down, once velocity went past this point the groups went wild.
the alloy is 4% tin and 6% antimony, and a little copper this is as far as velocity can go.
a little less velocity and the "group" actually shrinks.
http://s417.photobucket.com/user/_DnA_/media/Mobile%20Uploads/0412122019c.jpg.html?sort=3&o=89
it will hold this group with this load or do a slight bit better with 28.5 grs of imr 4895 and a filler of dryer lint.

now another boolit [and 4831 load] I use will walk down the target one click at a time like this at the 2400 fps area, it is the magical ww' and soft alloy mixed and water dropped.
http://s417.photobucket.com/user/_DnA_/media/Mobile%20Uploads/0319121836.jpg.html?sort=3&o=97
this was shot in a 20 mph wind and in temps hovering in the low 30's. you can see the one on the right that blew 1/4' out of the group.
disregard the other 2 holes they were already in the paper.
http://s417.photobucket.com/user/_DnA_/media/Mobile%20Uploads/0319121835.jpg.html?sort=3&o=98
this is a 6 shot group littlegirl shot the same day but she was ignoring the wind and you can see the drift back and forth causing the wide 1/2" group blown out to an inch wide.

http://s417.photobucket.com/user/_DnA_/media/Mobile%20Uploads/0320121947.jpg.html?sort=3&o=96
this is part of an earlier test involving a fillered load and a non fillered load showing what happens when you control velocity variations.
the little 5 shot group to the left, versus the strung out one on the right.
I dunno/remember what the one up by itself on the left is from.

anyway gear discussed the powder being the easiest part of the equation, it really is.
you are looking for gas volume and enough pressure to burn the powder you use cleanly.
the other parts are neck tension.
case thickness.
ignition consistency.
boolit to bore alignment.
throat fit of the projectile.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-165A-D.png
this is pretty dang close to what a 308 throat looks like..... from the base of the case neck up into the rifling.
I drew up another boolit a while back based on the 308's throat , for the HM-2 molds,but it got voted down in favor of the LEE- Ed Harris boolit design [oh well]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?148085-some-tips-that-may-help/page5
there is a little "light" reading in these saved links that will help you understand what is going on better.
me and Ian [Gear] wrote a full on dissertation in a couple of those linked threads.

[geargnasher]

2400 boots that boolit straight into the rifling before the neck expands and gives it anywhere else to go. Unique and Red Dot are also good for this but peak out at even lower velocity than 2400.

John Ardito's method of throating to .314" and shooting a similarly-sized, self-aligning boolit design should be studied closely by anyone wishing to push the limits of the .308 with cast. Some others use several different methods of achieving the same ends with smaller boolits and some rather involved tricks.

Gear

[popper]

Rick - I use the 31-165B with 39 gr of H335 or H4895. fps is a tad slower with the 335. I don't use any tin. PCd, the nose is 0.301. My RD311 nose is too big to do any good in the 308 - have to seat too deep in the AR (16" - 1:10). The RD grooves may be too thin to take the higher pressure without skidding. Shot the RD in 30/30 yesterday, no GC, I think due to the thin groove @ 1700 fps accuracy was terrible. PB a tad slower was OK but the rear drive band is huge.

[RickinTN]

Run, Gear, and Popper,
Thanks to you all. It appears I have lots of reading and studying, and reading again to do. I "glanced" at the info you posted Run, and I already use some of the techniques such as Redding bushing dies. I've been working in the .003" neck tension range as that is what I use with J-word bullets. I've found 308 brass neck thickness to vary considerably from one manufacturer to another and have ability to neck turn if necessary. I do have quite a stash (about 800 rounds) of once fired Federal GM brass, which is trimmed and prepped however it was not fired in this rifle. I'll have plenty of fun fire-forming to this chamber so that I can only neck size the brass.
Bullet bearing surface is something I've seen mentioned but until last night never put a lot of thought into. I did some measuring and I know my measurements are approximate because I took them with dial calipers but came up with the following: RCBS 165 Silhouette .200", RCBS 150 fp .280", Ranchdog 311-165 .420", and the Accurate 31-165A .240" (from Tom's drawings). The Ranchdog bullet has by far the most bearing surface although almost half of it is in the front band (.200") The Ranchdog bullet touches the throat of my chamber with the base of the bullet within .020" of the base of the neck, so at least in that respect an almost perfect fit.
Run, I've looked at the Accurate mold you suggest but haven't ordered it. It does mirror the chamber/throat of my rifle except I have approximately .250" from the case mouth to the leade in my chamber. I would need about .550" from the base of the bullet to the front of the front driving band to "fill the throat" in my rifle with the bullet seated properly or will have about .140" jump with Tom's bullet as is. I've thought about choosing a similar 175 grain mold he has and have him lengthen the front driving band to fit my chamber. I would be interested in your thoughts here.
Thanks again all for your help and education,

Rick

PS Popper, it does appear the 165 "B" bullet would fit the chamber/throat of my rifle better than the "A" bullet would. I have 3 Remington 700 308's and an '06 as well and they all share the same long .250" or so case mouth to leade dimension.
Rick

[runfiverun]

well a little run at the rifling isn't all bad news.
one of the issues we encounter with brass is it isn't thick enough.
I know you have heard to use the biggest boolit you can chamber this is an attempt to cover for the brass.
-- see those 2 lines? that is what you want your barrels centerline and your boolits centerline to be doing.
the little sloping area on the front of the boolit allows you to use a little forward movement before it is aligned properly by the throat/boolit relationship finding that centerline.
if the boolit is held in alignment before it moves forward there is little damage or the chance for uneven damage.
if the boolit is held just tight enough to not slip forward until ignition occurs it can find that centerline while under the least duress.
then it can be accelerated along it's journey.
the oversized boolit attempting to do the centerline work is now all folded back on itself and unevenly this isn't good for high velocity accuracy.
when I chamber tom's boolit it actually scuffs the throats on my rifles, the nose lightly scuffs also helping pull everything into alignment.
I cannot size to 311 because they will not chamber.
if I try to pour them to 311 the front drive band gets ruined by the 310 sizer and the boolit is junk.
this is the mechanical fit.
so instead of relying on just the nose [like you do with the silh boolit] i'm relying on the case fit, the back of the boolit, and partly the nose of the boolit.
i'm also using that front band to allow a "free fit" from a forward moving boolit that is being supported by the barrel and the throat.
this is the static fit.
one of your other boolits could give you a pretty close simulation of the above.
if the 30-150 will chamber and stay in the neck of the case I would definitely pursue that option, it has good boolit strength and can certainly take 2300+ fps with accuracy.
I use and recommend it as a hunting boolit in a few different 30 cals for those reasons.

[45 2.1]

..... self-aligning boolit design should be studied closely by anyone wishing to push the limits of the .308 with cast. Some others use several different methods of achieving the same ends with smaller boolits and some rather involved tricks. Gear

First partial sentence is a good statement (especially involving semi-autos), but the second involves some speculation and assumptions because you didn't get the whole story.

[OnHoPr]

Hey 5r5 were those target groups at 50 or 100 yds? Did you teach your daughter how to shoot (meaning she shoots good)?

[popper]

R5R you mean the 31-150? 30-150L is 8mm.

[offshore44]

Gotta say, I love this place...

[runfiverun]

the rcbs 30-150 fngc.
it's meant as a 30-30 boolit it's only major flaw is the front drive band.
I attempted to correct this oversight in the HM-2 mold I drew up but was over voted on.

ONHO: those were at 100 yds.
http://s417.photobucket.com/user/_DnA_/media/Mobile%20Uploads/0913131717_zps3f2b9772.jpg.html?sort=3&o=12
this is with her ruger tang safety, it wears a 2x7x32 scope.
she was checking the zero for this years deer hunt while I was at work in Wyoming.

yeah I taught her to shoot, as well as my other kids and several of their friends.
almost every kid 18-25 in this town has either learned to shoot from me or their parents [or both]
several of the local girls are very, very good with a rifle and most can shoot a shotgun pretty well.
one girl I was teaching to shoot handguns ended up moving to Utah and eventually got a scholarship of some sort for her shooting.
I learned as part of the "job" I had when I left home at 17.