Judges and 1 Samuel

[pmer]

I understand these were not good times for the children of Israel. I'm having trouble understanding:

What a Judge is?
The difference between a Prophet and a Seer (Samuel)
The sons of Eli the Priest and their corruption?

What I'm getting from that so far is the tragedy of repeating mistakes and how bad is to not pass Gods word to the little ones so they can grow in the light of the Lord.

[DLCTEX]

The major difference between a prophet and a seer as far as I can tell is that a seer was after monetary gain. Eli's sons were no different than too many today, using their position for gain and favor with women. I am not against a preacher benefiting monetarily from his profession, but it is a path fraught with danger and requires much soul searching to avoid desiring the gain rather than serving God.

[Wayne Smith]

First, realize that a 'prophet' is more often a forth teller than a fore teller. That is, a prophet presents God's unpleasant truth to people who are unwilling to listen. Second, generally those called 'seers' in the OT were dealing with deamons, not God, if they were valid. Otherwise they were lying, either way, their statements were highly unreliable.

Third, a Judge is a civic and often military leader. They were leaders of tribes or coalitions of tribes, not of Israel. For example Deborah was Judge and Barak was the war leader of a coalition of northern tribes. You do not see Judah or Simeon involved in this war. Offhand, and I'm on vacation and not using resources, I don't think more than three or four of the twelve tribes were involved.

Fourth, realize that Judges is not a historic record as we would expect one. These are incidents that span probably 400 years and are not in chronological order. Each reflects the history of a part of what would become Israel. A study of the occupation of the land shows that it was very much a gradual process. The Israelites did not have the numbers (population) or military might to completely move in and take over. The book of Judges are moral stories from this period. Realize that the Philistines (probably Greek settlers) maintained power into David's Kingdom.

[pmer]

Oh good, thanks for the help guys. So Saul must have approached Samuel in a wrong headed way maybe marking one of Sauls first missteps?

And the woman in Acts that kept follownig (Paul?) that had demon of fortune telling removed could be thought of as a seer too?

[Wayne Smith]

Saul approached God in a proud and wrong headed way. He was impatient, God was not appearing as he wished so he bypassed the appropriate way to address God the way God had told him and tried to go directly to God himself. Isn't this impatience with God something we all experience?

Please realize that translation is a ticklish process. If you know any foreign language you already know that a one -to- one translation is impossible. Hebrew is a very early language and very non-specific in its use of words. One word can mean multiple things and the meaning changes with context. Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke, is similar. Greek is very specific, much more similar to our American English in that regard.

My point is simply that what that woman would be called would change between who might be calling her that, what language was used, and the cultural understanding of mental illness/demonic possession was. Thus yes, a seer would be one of many such titles that might be used.

[pmer]

Thank you for helping my perspective. I just finished reading 1 Samuel for first time last night and it was hard to put down and do something else. I do seem to find myself reading different versions online if i get stuck on something.

[Wayne Smith]

I'm fascinated with the early history of Israel - and Colonial America. Reading Judges is fun for me. I and II Samuel and I and II Chronicles are parallel in a lot of ways. If you can find one a Bible that is organized historically is a lot of help understanding the OT. A Chronological Bible is what it is usually called. Thus you read the passage in Samuel and the parallel passage in Chronicles one after the other. You read the relevant prophet along with the history of that period, so you will read most of the major and minor prophets while you finish the Chronicles. This arranges the material in a way that we are expecting and makes sense to us.

[wv109323]

Wayne,
You said that Israel did not have the military might or numbers to content with the occupants of Palestine.
In Exodus God promised the land and the overthrow of the occupants to Israel several times. It was Israels doubt of God's power to help Israel that got them into trouble. Only Caleb and Joshua gave the report to occupy the land and defeat the inhabitants. Because of Israel unbelief they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years.
Also once in the land Israel did not overthrow all the occupants and again they got in trouble with God.

[Wayne Smith]

Wayne,
You said that Israel did not have the military might or numbers to content with the occupants of Palestine.
In Exodus God promised the land and the overthrow of the occupants to Israel several times. It was Israels doubt of God's power to help Israel that got them into trouble. Only Caleb and Joshua gave the report to occupy the land and defeat the inhabitants. Because of Israel unbelief they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years.
Also once in the land Israel did not overthrow all the occupants and again they got in trouble with God.

True, that Joshua conquered all of the traditional land of Israel. What I am proposing, and this is not known, is that the People of Israel did not have the numbers, the population to effectively occupy and maintain occupation of all the land initially. They were mostly limited to the hill country and, during most of the book of Judges, controlled and terrorized by the surrounding peoples that they did not kill or completely evict from the land as God had instructed. Yes, this is the result of their failure to follow God's instructions. Since they did not and left the native peoples in place they did not have the population to control the land and it's people.