45-70 woes. Help?

[austinkroe]

Sorry in advance for the long post but I thank you all for your help and patience with a first poster.

So, I'm having trouble with loading for my 45-70.

After a long wait, I got my Shiloh Sharps late last year. Tons of reading the Shiloh forums and lots of online I have accumulated quite the stable of specialty gear to care for and feed the monster.

It's a 45-70 with a 34" barrel. I wanted 45-110 power without the hassle of expensive brass and black powder (long range plinking is so attractive). So I decided that smokeless and paper patched bullets was the way to go. This is where I got myself into trouble. I didn't know about this site before making some purchases.

I read the Matthews book... several times and I decided to have a mould made. So I had Steve Brooks make me a mould. It's a smooth paperpatch mould in a creedmoor design of sorts. Casting with 20-1 it drops out at 545 gr. with the bottom half inch having a diameter of .4505 (the bore slugs out to .451 and groove of .458). Then over the next .1" it tapers down to .440; straight for a wile working up to the nose. all bullets sorted for weight. New starling brass trimmed and annealed.

I can post a picture of a bullet if that would help.

All loads are are with 5744 with a velocity of 1,530 fps.

I started with a double wrap of 9# onionskin which brought the diameter to .456. I thought it might bump up and be ok. Wrong. I wrapped 10 with the patch going all the way up to where the bullet get to .440 and 10 with the patch going to just the edge of the taper. All of the patches lubed with the Matthews beeswax and Vaseline lube. Loaded to a length that required no pressure to seat the cartridge. I shot them with terrible results. Massive leading and groups measured in feet.

Next up I tried the same thing but wrapped the bullets three times to get the bullet up to .459. Improved the results from 3' groups to 2' groups. Still leading.

Then I tried not lubing the patches. Same poor results.

I then moved on to using 16# vellum. Improved the results to 1' groups. And pretty much no leading.

Then I tried seating them to a length that required me to force the cartridge in with my thumb. Marginally improved results.

I also tried rolling the bullets with a file to get more bite for the patch. I didn't notice any change.

So to sum up I've tried every combo of:
9# onionskin two wraps
9# onionskin three wraps
16# vellum two wraps
"short" patch
"long" patch
Lube
No lube
Standard bullet
"filed" bullet
Long seating
Short seating

The best 5 shot group has been about 6" and I'm pretty sure it was luck. I can't seem to get consistency. It is infuriating.

Every patch has been nice and tight. I cannot twist them around on the bullet and there is no overlap on the last wrap. I twist the tails and leave them as is.

I do see the confetti when I shoot. I do not have the ability to recover bullets though.

I know it isn't my shooting or bench technique. I clean the barrel between 5 shot strings. I start and end each shooting session with a 5 shot group using the Remington 405 gr. factory load. With that load I can easily shoot 2" to 2.5" groups every time.

I really want to have the satisfaction of paper patching but I don't want to have to mortgage the farm to try every possible experiment. Any help or thoughts would be much appreciated.

Do I need a different mould? Modify the one I have? Possible to make it work as is with different technique.

I just want to get a big heavy bullet to consistently shoot into 1"-2" groups so I can move on to the long range plinking I really bought the gun for. A deer would be nice too.

I'm sure I've left some detail out so if you think of anything let me know and I'll fork over more details.

Sorry if the post was a bit scatterbrained but I wanted to get as much out as I could.

Thanks in advance.

[barrabruce]

try the full length file technique to put a bit of grip on the patch.
I'd patch till past the patch diameter is smaller than bore so the patch don't catch.
Wet wrap with the grain for a tight patch.
seat till it engraves no jump.

Should end up with no leading.
Is factory jacketed if so get all that copper much out of it.
A bit tougher alloy should drop the cores a bit bigger.

All worth as much as you paid for this info.

someone who knows what they are doing should be along shortly.

[pdawg_shooter]

I prefer grooved bullets over "slicks". Gives the paper something to cling to and holds a bit more lube. Also choose a powder that will give as close as possible to 100% load density. Always get my best accuracy that way. As barrabruce said patch long and seat so the patch is engraved by the rifling when chambered. 45-70 is one of the easiest rounds to patch for, IMHO. I used to patch for a 25-06 for prairie dog shooting. Now THAT was a real challenge.

[Doc_Stihl]

5744 in my experience likes alot of bullet weight and a good crimp to burn consistantly. If it were me, I'd patch up to .460 with a lubed patch in the "long" configuration and try with a 90% of loaded round capacity with Trail boss and see if you could get accuracy at 50 yards. That would be a super low velocity round, but I've found that if a trail boss load will shoot accurately, the bullet is working and then try a different powder. If you wanted to go straight high end load, I'd look at reloder 7 or maybe IMR 3031 /IMR 4198/H4895. Those should all get you into the 1550fps range.
If you're starting with 5 rounds of copper or even cast at the beginning of each range session you're hobbling yourself. I've found that patched likes a bare clean bore to start with. If there's leading or copper fouling your patch won't like it. Start clean and end clean. If you're going to shoot paper, don't shoot anything else.

My $0.02

[bigted]

I completely agree with Doc. their seems to be some confusion with the jacketed bullets being so clean. the hardest thing I ever tried to remove from any barrel is all the copper left from the jacketed crud. it even interferes with the straight greasers in the accuracy dept. so here is my 2 cents for advise in smokless patching success.

1- begin with a boolit that is .006 under what would be the groove diameter plus .002 ... such as groove= .458+.002=.460-.006=.454 inch.
2- take your .454 inch boolit and wet wrap with your 9 pound onion skin paper taking care to wrap just around .20 over the o-give beginning of the boolit ... also just want your paper width to overlap the base by around 1/8th to 3/16th.
3- allow your wrapped boolits to completely dry ... very important to deal with completely dry patched boolits.
4- take the completely dry wrapped boolits and shove em thru a .460 push thru size die AFTER rubbing a bit of wax or lube on the SIDES of your patch ... NON on the base at all!
5- as previously mentioned ... now load em with the front wrap that is just over the o-give so when completely seated they engrave the rifling just a bit.
6- now as to your load ... again as mentioned above ... use a powder that will give a 110% load so that the boolit puts just the slightest pressure on the powder ... IMR 3031 is excellent for the velocity's you mention ... another is again the previously mentioned RL-7 powder and use some filler if not completely a 100% filled case to the bottom of the seated boolit.
7- now with paperpatch and smokless I always crimp with my size die. shove the loaded round into the size die only till there is a reluctance in the turning of the boolit in the case ... didn't mention above but I don't size the case at all if possible so I can thumb seat the patched boolit ... then this last action is needed to allow the boolit to have just the tiny bit of pull when leaving your case. this last step is a great need with the heavy's that you are gonna want to shoot in your rifle for long range shooting.

these do fairly well for me in paperpatching my 45 cal rifles. if you get leading then something is happening to the patch in the barrel. when it gets torn or stripped and leaves lead in the barrel then it be time to find that culprit straight away. causes may be;

1- some hard kinda fouling in the barrel that tears the patch during its passage.
2- too large of patch at the rifling beginning that starts the stripping as the oversize patch hangs on the rifling beginning.
3- too small a boolit that shucks the patch before it even gets away from the case.
4- short cases in the chamber [such as the "Leverlution from Hornaday cases that are way short].
5- too sharp of rifling that cuts the paper too much before the whole shebang gets thru the barrel.

there are prolly other causes for the leading but for sure begin with an absolutely clean barrel. to begin I would use butch's bore shine or shooters choice with a good soaking for several hours to remove ALL the copper from those horrendous jacketed bullets ... or ... keep shooting them exclusively [which I had to slap my fingers after typing that last].

patching is a fun and rewarding exercise in itself. however you kinda jumped into the deep end first off with your expectation and style. sooo here is what I suggest ... re-group and obtain a .460 inch greaser mold for shooting greasers to begin with so you can get confidence in your spiffy new rifle. molds from accurate molds will be your best and cheapest bet and they are very very good in quality and these will begin you down the road with accurate shooting with home built loads ... then after some confidence in your rifle is established ... delve back into patching for the darlin rifle.

if you continue the patching engagement then for sure continue reading about SMOKELESS patching and proceed with slow deliberate system for weeding out what your particular rifle wants/needs for success.

there is maybe more then 2 cents and ill shut up now and allow the real officers of smokeless success chime in with their recipe for success.

[Old Coot]

I would follow Big Ted's and Pdawg's advice to the letter. The PP mould you bought was meant for black powder shooting. Smokeless powders don't ignite with the sudden force of black powder and therefore do not bump up the bullet as much. The old black powder moulds were made to be a little under bore size so that they would always seat in spite of bp fouling. The black bumped or obdurated the bullet to the right size. Brodie

[austinkroe]

Alright guys. Thanks for all the replies. I will be cleaning the rifle extra good this evening and searching for some trailboss and 3031 tomorrow.
I will try the suggestions as best I can with the bullets and mould that I have but the consensus seems to be that I'll be needing a new mould. Rats!!
As far a grooves go, should I be looking at grease groove moulds or tumble lube moulds? I'm kind of sad about this one cause the smooth bullets are so pretty.

[gandydancer]

are you using wads? a filler? How much 5744?

[austinkroe]

No wads. No filler. 34.5 gr. of 5744.

[Gelandangan]

Cannot assume that bad accuracy is it is the sole fault of the projectile or its wrap.
1. try shoot it a bit more, often barrels would work to better accuracy after 200+ shots through it.
2. try vary your powder or load, you may get bad barrel harmonic with your particular load velocity, a bit slower or faster may work out better.
3. ensure that your load density is between 80 to 100% the cartridge space.
4. if you are still leading, try different lube.

[geargnasher]

Slicks are no good for smokeless, but save that mould for black and dead-soft, pure lead that WILL bump.

Smokeless needs the correct core diameter, usually about .001-2" larger than bore, and a patch thickness as large as will chamber. Fit the loaded case as well as the throat, IOW patch the driving portion as large as will cram into a fired case with heavy thumb pressure and still chamber, and don't over-size your brass. Just kiss the case with the sizing die enough to give about .002" interference fit with your patched boolit. Hard thumb pressure to seat the patch into the lands worked best for me. Any lube will do. As a last resort, consider a granular filler with appropriate charge reduction considerations to start and work back up. Crimp is unnecessary and often detrimental to accuracy.

Gear

ETA pic, this is for a Shiloh 45 2.4: Ordinary notebook paper, 3031, and a good poly filler made it shoot as well as I can see, as far as I can see. That's a Lyman 535-grain boolit, air-cooled wheel weights, sized .452" and two wraps of paper, final sized in a .459" die with the heat turned up and slight lube pressure to just "coat" the paper with Felix lube. Kicks like a MULE.

http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w538/Geargnasher/thum_89094e2b37df9f01b_zpsecc5dac8.jpg (http://s1328.photobucket.com/user/Geargnasher/media/thum_89094e2b37df9f01b_zpsecc5dac8.jpg.html)

[d garfield]

!5 grns. of uniqe works very good,and a lot of loads to the pound. Don,t need any filler.

[pdawg_shooter]

"quote" That's a Lyman 535-grain boolit, air-cooled wheel weights, sized .452" and two wraps of paper, final sized in a .459" die with the heat turned up and slight lube pressure to just "coat" the paper with Felix lube. Kicks like a MULE.

No than you. My 430s at a bit over 1750fps from a 1895g are bad enough.