Savage 10 FCM Scout 7.62x39

[Ranch Dog]

A little Rossi Single Shot stirred my interest in the 7.62x39 cartridge, next thing I know I'm looking at the bolt guns chambered in this cartridge. Decided on the Savage 10 FCM Scout. I put things together yesterday and will start shooting it this week.

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Firearms/10FCM/images/10FCM_01.jpg

I went with the Weaver K4 Classic Scout scope. I'm using this on five lever-scouts, like it best from a hands on "tri-test" including the Burris and Leupold.

Of course, Ranch Dog is Ranch Dog, so I'm already considering a cast bullet that is 7.62x39 specific. I will get chamber casts from my rifles this week and move forward from there. Thinking of a bore-rider to accommodate the .308 or .310+ groove diameters. Both my rifles are .308s, the Rossi is out of production, but want to look at the CZ527 & Ruger 77 chambers before I finalize the design. Bases on the SAAMI/CIP specs for both groove diameters, this is what it looks like so far.

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC313125RF/chamber/chamber02.jpg

The "digital" testing seems that little bullet at the spec weight for cartridge is going to be a very stable and effective killer of deer and hogs with everything contained very nicely in the case neck. In the meantime, this hunting season, I will be using my TLC311-165-RF sized at .310".

Who else has a sporting rifle in this cartridge?

[Artful]

It's not a factory gun but it is 7.62x39
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/762x39MauserWASRconversion.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/762x39MauserWASRconversion.jpg.html)

You got a copy of Ed Harris's 155 for SKS's?
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/1111-179-314%20155Gr.FN.jpg
another one to try
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/1111-019-314SP129.JPG
more info on my mauser
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?217013-7-62x39-casting-a-good-day

[Piedmont]

I've thought the little Savage Scout in that chambering looked like a winner since I learned of it. You don't seem to read much about them. The thing I don't like about short barrels is the blast, so that little cartridge seems perfect for a scout rifle.

[Mk42gunner]

I and a few others have Zastava Mini-Mausers from the various importers. I believe there are quite a few that own CZ's also.

I like the looks of your boolit, so far.

Robert

[Jeff H]

I like that bullet, Michael!:-D

My 7.62x39 rifle project fizzled and I ended up with a 300 BLK Handi I wouldn't mind having something like that for.

[NYBushBro]

A little Rossi Single Shot stirred my interest in the 7.62x39 cartridge, next thing I know I'm looking at the bolt guns chambered in this cartridge. Decided on the Savage 10 FCM Scout. I put things together yesterday and will start shooting it this week.

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Firearms/10FCM/images/10FCM_01.jpg

I went with the Weaver K4 Classic Scout scope. I'm using this on five lever-scouts, like it best from a hands on "tri-test" including the Burris and Leupold.

Of course, Ranch Dog is Ranch Dog, so I'm already considering a cast bullet that is 7.62x39 specific. I will get chamber casts from my rifles this week and move forward from there. Thinking of a bore-rider to accommodate the .308 or .310+ groove diameters. Both my rifles are .308s, the Rossi is out of production, but want to look at the CZ527 & Ruger 77 chambers before I finalize the design. Bases on the SAAMI/CIP specs for both groove diameters, this is what it looks like so far.

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC313125RF/chamber/chamber02.jpg

The "digital" testing seems that little bullet at the spec weight for cartridge is going to be a very stable and effective killer of deer and hogs with everything contained very nicely in the case neck. In the meantime, this hunting season, I will be using my TLC311-165-RF sized at .310".

Who else has a sporting rifle in this cartridge?

Put my name on the list for the Group Buy for this one (hopefully a Lee 6-cavity, like the other RD's.)

[MT Gianni]

I have a Handi Rifle that is a tack driver with the Lee 155 stnd lube and 311466. That 125 looks like a great one.

[Ranch Dog]

Thanks for all the replys guys! Sorry I haven't been back up since my OP, I had some family stuff that I've been working with. Let's see...

Very nice rifle Artful! I appreciate the bullet info but they wouldn't fit my needs.

Based on all the critter killing I do, I want at least a 72% meplat on my cast bullets. From lessons learned from the 300 Savage, 308 Marlin Express, 338 Marlin Express, and 35 Remington; I want the body of the bullet contained within the case neck.

The latter places some limitations on bullet weight with this cartridge, and the others mentioned, but it is what it is. So far while trying to meet this criteria, any way I grow weight which must be outside the case, causes the center of gravity of the bullet to drift further away. This is also a must for me. I want the two specifics very close, no more that a 3% split, and the "125" is pushing it at 3.12%. I value this a reflection of stability more than the "Greenhill" type formulas which only involve chunking a cylinder down range.

[nekshot]

Good to hear from you ranch dog. I love all the molds I have from your past marketing. I have a carcana rebarreled in 7.62x39 and it is a winner with lee 303-185 and your 30-165. Both of these molds I beagled one cavity for fat boolits. The lee weighs 195 grains and the rd is 175 gr. I get one inch groubs at 80 yards but I must keep the speed lower than I want. I decided what I need is a fat 150 grainer and that I don't have. I am interested in your mold for sure!
nekshot

[jwhite]

Ranch Dog,
I have both a Ruger 77 compact and a Charles Daly in 7.62x39, i use your 115gr 32-20 boolit with 11.5grs of BlueDot in both of them, makes for an accurate, hard hitting "medium power" load. I also shoot hollowpointed 311440's and a 165gr LBT LFN that Veral cut for me based upon chamber casts from my Charles Daly, the 165gr LBT has taken several deer and does a great job. I would be very interested in a 125gr bullet of your design.
JW

[Ranch Dog]

Very interesting JW, thanks for the info. Do you still have the chamber cast samples?

[Dr. A]

Hey Ranch dog, you got one of my favorite calibers. I have the cz, and have even shot your 165 grain bullet out of mine, and it works well. I use H322. I also use the modified lee (noe) and it is superb in my gun. The meplat is smaller than I like, but use it for longer range targets. The cz is a hoot, and I may have to try out that Savage. I will certainly order one of your molds.

[Ranch Dog]

How you doing Doc? I can see how this little bugger of a cartridge could be a favorite! I shot my Scout yesterday for the first time, in a moderate rainstorm, using my TLC311-165-RF (the original bullet) and it did exceptionally well. At 25-yards, the first three bullets went in the same hole. At 50-yards, a clover leaf ragged hole, but at 100-yards it threw one about five inches from what would have been a sub-MOA group. I'm not sure what shot the flyer was as they all felt good and with the rain I could not tell where the shots were impacting. This was with 26.9-grains of H322 which should have been 2135 FPS at 45.1K PSI but because of the weather I was not using a chrony or pressure trace equipment.

Of course, it needs a bunch more shooting. I did get the chamber casts from both the Savage and Rossi this morning so will have a little more to go with as soon as I measure them out.

It would be a little bit weird if I did take a real shine to this cartridge in that I think my CZ82 in 9mm Makarov has hit that mark as far as handguns go.

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Firearms/CZ82/images/CZ82_02.jpg

It was an old surplus junker but it shot so well that I had it professionally rebuilt; every small part new, parkerized, night sights installed, and the grips are Mother of Pearl Kevlar. Here are my boolits...

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TL367100RF/images/TL367100RF_bullets.jpg

Two Russian cartridges as favorites?

[jwhite]

Very interesting JW, thanks for the info. Do you still have the chamber cast samples?

I will have to look when i get home, i am stuck on a ship for another couple weeks, if i don't find them i can make a couple more if your interested, i have been meaning to make a chamber impression of the Ruger anyway. I really like the Ruger but wish it had a longer barrel, 16" is LOUD, even with light loads, it is unbelievably accurate though, shoots the 123gr v-maxes with a charge of RL-7 into sub 1" groups @ 100yards and Privi Partisan factory soft points right at 1". It is a little more fussy with cast bullets, the little 115gr bullet being the best one yet. My Charles Daly seems to do better over all with cast bullets, doesnt seem to care how fast or what boolit i use, it also has one of the smoothest barrels i have ever seen. I really enjoy the little 7.62x39, i have shot a lot of rabbits with it using light cast bullet loads as well as a couple deer and several kids have borrowed the Charles Daly to use as their first deer rifle. One young fellow has shot two deer with it, both times using the 165gr LBT boolit cast with a pure lead softpoint nose @ 2000fps, worked great.

[Dr. A]

I wish that TLC 311-165-RF could be made in a 313 version, as that is what my gun would prefer. I did not realize the Savage only had a 308 bore. Where did you find yours?

[Ranch Dog]

I will have to look when i get home, i am stuck on a ship for another couple weeks, if i don't find them i can make a couple more if your interested, i have been meaning to make a chamber impression of the Ruger anyway. I really like the Ruger but wish it had a longer barrel, 16" is LOUD, even with light loads, it is unbelievably accurate though, shoots the 123gr v-maxes with a charge of RL-7 into sub 1" groups @ 100yards and Privi Partisan factory soft points right at 1". It is a little more fussy with cast bullets, the little 115gr bullet being the best one yet. My Charles Daly seems to do better over all with cast bullets, doesnt seem to care how fast or what boolit i use, it also has one of the smoothest barrels i have ever seen. I really enjoy the little 7.62x39, i have shot a lot of rabbits with it using light cast bullet loads as well as a couple deer and several kids have borrowed the Charles Daly to use as their first deer rifle. One young fellow has shot two deer with it, both times using the 165gr LBT boolit cast with a pure lead softpoint nose @ 2000fps, worked great.

Thank you for the interesting report jwhite. Any chamber casts would be greatly appreciated and put to good use! I've got to ask, what kind of ship are you on?


I wish that TLC 311-165-RF could be made in a 313 version, as that is what my gun would prefer. I did not realize the Savage only had a 308 bore. Where did you find yours?
It is a .308 groove Doc!

What I don't like about my "30 Long Neck" bullet is the bullet body extending past the base of the neck. See, I expect that flier was the result of the gas check being knocked off at the start of combustion. I experienced similar issues with my original designs for the 35 Rem, and both the 308 and 338 Marlin Express. Once I contained the bullet body inside the neck, this type of issue disappeared. After those nine shots yesterday, I loaded 10 cartridges and then pulled the bullets with a kinetic puller. Two out of the ten gas checks departed the bullet coming out. Granted, this is not quite the same as the initial start pressure influencing the bullet. I would gladly accept a bullet weight loss, for a shorter bullet, to eliminate the possibility though.

What I would like to work on is a bore rider that drops at .313 but can be resized .310" without affecting the ogive.

From what I've read, the .308 groove rifles have a long throat that, in effect, will take care of sizing a .311 bullet down before in engages the rifling. I haven't started my measurements yet from my .308s, but this doesn't seem to be the case. I think they are SAAMI cuts. SAAMI does allow for either groove diameters without affecting the cartridge cut. My little Rossi single shot was the dirtiest rifle I've ever seen, I think from shooting .311 steel alloy bullets in a .308 barrel. It took exactly 495 patches to clean it!

I could not find a 10 FCM in South Texas chambered in 7.62x39. The closest one I could find was in Houston for $900, which is priced above the $865 MSRP. I haven't asked, despite calling Savage twice for info on the rifle prior to purchase, but it seems as though they must be cutting one in this cartridge to 25 308s. On the auction sites, I have seen some good prices on the 308, but not the 7.62. I also would check daily on GunsAmerican (http://www.gunsamerica.com/965749926/SAVAGE_MODEL_10FCM_LAW_ENFORCMENT_SCOUT_RIFLE_7_62 X39CAL_NE.htm) and sure enough one became available at a reasonable price, so I contacted the buyer and bought it. I didn't dicker or nothing, been looking for several months and knew it would not get better.

One of my original calls to Savage was to its special order desk. If not a 7.62x39, I was interested in this rifle as a 300 Savage. They told me that for just under $300 extra, I can have it in just about any non-belted cartridge I want!

[Dr. A]

Very interesting. Would you ever consider NOE to make the mold? They just updated their supply of copies of your molds and I bought a few.

[jwhite]

[QUOTE=Ranch Dog;2457052]Thank you for the interesting report jwhite. Any chamber casts would be greatly appreciated and put to good use! I've got to ask, what kind of ship are you on?


Ranch Dog,
I am on a large hopper dredge working on the Houston ship channel. The name of the vessel is M/V Glenn Edwards, if you google it you will come up with all kinds of info.86149

Here is a link to some tests i did a few years ago. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?38175-30-Rooski-boolit-tests
JW

[Ranch Dog]

Very interesting. Would you ever consider NOE to make the mold? They just updated their supply of copies of your molds and I bought a few.

Yeah, once the dust settles on the design of this thing, I will talk to Al as I do not see any let up on distributor orders coming into Lee. I will want a Micro Band rather than stand lube grooves but when NOE was ordering the tooling for my designs, the tool maker was giving him a break if he ordered both types at the same time. May be we can talk him in to running it.

I was up early this morning starting my routine to get hunters up and out for our deer season opener. I had some free time in the ruckus so I ran a sinker through the Rossi Single Shot as that was the next step on my list as with the barrel clean. The good news is that it slugs .311, not the .308 indicated technical specs on their web site. That is good news as it should give me two SAAMI cut chambers; one at a groove of .308 and one at .311. With these samples in hand, I will not need any others!


I am on a large hopper dredge working on the Houston ship channel. The name of the vessel is M/V Glenn Edwards, if you google it you will come up with all kinds of info.

I am always amazed at the variety of careers represented here!


Here is a link to some tests i did a few years ago. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?38175-30-Rooski-boolit-tests

In prepping for my Savage Scout purchase, I actually read through your report as it came up with the various searches that I ran on the forum. Good work JW.

In the last decade and a half, I have taken a huge amount of big game animals, something on the order of 750 to 1000 animals. A majority have been feral hogs but included whitetails, mule deer, pronghorns & nilgai. I have always used a Lyman #2 clone alloy that has been water quenched at the drop for 19 to 21 BHN. The bullets I've used have been those of my design with a minimum 72% meplat and in all of this hunting, it has been my observation that this setup of alloy and bullet features when shot at jacketed bullet velocities mirror the killing authority of a jacketed bullet that has an exposed lead core.

I need to go tend to hunters but here are some comparisons of shooting my TLC311-165-RF in the 7.62x39 against my initial proposal for a TLC313-125-RF. In reality, the heavier bullet sees some advantage but I do not like that bullet body extending below the case neck. Bad juju for me.

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC313125RF/TMT/762_comparison_FPE.jpg

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC313125RF/TMT/762_comparison_Penetration.jpg

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC313125RF/TMT/762_comparison_Taylor.jpg

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC313125RF/TMT/762_comparison_Thornily.jpg

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC313125RF/TMT/762_comparison_Wound.jpg

[nekshot]

I would gladly give up weight to keep everything in neck. I passed on a mannlicher norinco (I think)bolt this past spring because the stock was rubbish. However it was 495.00 and I think in hindsight I should have bought it.Sure was a sweet unit for carrying.

[Ranch Dog]

I would gladly give up weight to keep everything in neck. I passed on a mannlicher norinco (I think)bolt this past spring because the stock was rubbish. However it was 495.00 and I think in hindsight I should have bought it.Sure was a sweet unit for carrying.
I haven't a clue what these would go for. I've gotten pretty good at doing Tru-Oil finishes which doesn't involve much work or money.

I spent some more time on the Rossi barrel and the completed the 10FCM barrel as well. Besides the sinker, I sent a bullet through them as well. The Rossi Single Shot (R762MB) has a .302" bore with a measured .310" groove. There are constrictions in the barrel at both ends, breech and muzzle and once lapped will measure out at .311".

The 10FCM has a .300" bore and perfect .308" groove.

Both rifles have 4 groove rifling, with the grooves being twice as wide as the lands.

[Jeff H]

.....The 10FCM has a .300" bore and perfect .308" groove........

I'm watching this intently.

I have a real need for for a bullet of that weight and design to work in a .300"/.308" barrel. Nothing I have looked at so far looked all that promising and then you (my favorite bullet designer) comes along with a 125. PERFECT TIMING!

But,..... since you're not selling moulds any more, will we be able to get one made like this?

[Ranch Dog]

I'm watching this intently.

I have a real need for for a bullet of that weight and design to work in a .300"/.308" barrel. Nothing I have looked at so far looked all that promising and then you (my favorite bullet designer) comes along with a 125. PERFECT TIMING!

But,..... since you're not selling moulds any more, will we be able to get one made like this?

I played with the design a little more this afternoon before I went deer hunting. I work a bit and then ponder a bit more. I also decided I want a chamber impression from the Scout to support the the throat dimensions identified by the chamber cast.

I think our best hope is getting NOE to tackle it but I want the design settled before I do that.

[Ranch Dog]

After I came in from hunting, I went to work on my two rifles. Using lead wire I made a chamber impression from each that produced a great deal more definition than that from the Cerrosafe. I also decided to employ the "Master", our Tom Myers who has helped me with so many of my designs, just to make sure I get this right the first time. In that this is two chambers and one bullet, I would prefer another working on it as well.

Subscribe to this topic if you are interested, it might be a bit but I will be back here as I want to get both of my rifles shooting with a 7.62x39 specific bullet, a bullet that is suitable for big game hunting, as soon as possible. I will also make contact with NOE and see what the possibilities are there.

[Jeff H]

Interested and subscribed.

I want to try it in a CB-only 300 BLK.

Thanks for sharing, Michael.

[jwhite]

Michael,
Have you tried your 313-115gr at higher speeds? I have never pushed it beyond 1800fps in my Ruger but when i get home i think i will work on a 2200-2300 load to see how it does. What is the twist on your Savage?

JW

[Dr. A]

I have had no problems getting my NOE 155 gr Lee copy going 2300fps. This gun will shoot them as fast as it lets me pack in powder. If we are going with that small of a bullet, I will be really curious how fast I can get it going with accuracy and 1680. My gun does prefer the standard lube grooves, and though the Marlins have done well with the small lube grooves, I would like to buy the bigger groove mold if offered. I know Al sells more of the standard lube groove, or at least that is what it appears. I bet he gives us an option. Your molds tend to sell quickly and consistently. With Al making them, I usually don't have near as long to wait either.

I would think the bigger lube groove molds would size down better, but perhaps that amount of sizing is just not important enough.

[Ranch Dog]

Michael,
Have you tried your 313-115gr at higher speeds? I have never pushed it beyond 1800fps in my Ruger but when i get home i think i will work on a 2200-2300 load to see how it does. What is the twist on your Savage?
I haven't tried my TLC313-115-RF on top of the 7.62x39 as I don't have any loose bullets. The are all loaded on 32-20 Win cartridges which I shooting at 2100 FPS. Of my 30 caliber designs, this bullet is probably has the most potential. I have run it through QuickLoad and with my powders, H335 & H4227 have the most potential. Those powders would push it over 2500 FPS.

It is tough for me to cast during hunting season but I don't think anybody is going out today as thunderstorms are expected at sunrise through early afternoon. Might actually get a chance to cast bullets!


I have had no problems getting my NOE 155 gr Lee copy going 2300fps. This gun will shoot them as fast as it lets me pack in powder. If we are going with that small of a bullet, I will be really curious how fast I can get it going with accuracy and 1680. My gun does prefer the standard lube grooves, and though the Marlins have done well with the small lube grooves, I would like to buy the bigger groove mold if offered. I know Al sells more of the standard lube groove, or at least that is what it appears. I bet he gives us an option. Your molds tend to sell quickly and consistently. With Al making them, I usually don't have near as long to wait either.

I would think the bigger lube groove molds would size down better, but perhaps that amount of sizing is just not important enough.

I would prefer the Micro-Bands. I shoot both in the same designs and the accuracy I see is always better with the bands. With the short body dictated by the case neck, you would probably see one medium width grease grove or two short ones.

I did talk to Swede at NOE and he is interested in the bullet and doing them in both lube groove styles. In that we are using the same design software, I would give him my data and let him settle the standard groove issues. It looks like he is willing to list it in his store for direct orders. After running the four Lee group buys that I have this year, I will not run any more through any manufacturer.

Once Tom looks at my chamber impressions, I will continue on the with the design.

[Dr. A]

That's what I figured. Thanks so much!

[Ranch Dog]

I was able to cast a bunch of my 32-20 Win bullets, the TLC313-115-RF, so I should have them checked, lubed, and sized within the week. This morning I ran it through the TMT Chamber software and this is what it looked like.

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC313125RF/chamber/7.62x39_SAAMI_TLC313115RF.jpg

With a perfect fit, the software suggested a 1.880" overall length. Here is what it looks in real life, the case has been trimmed with a Lee Case Length Gauge/Trimmer.

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC313125RF/images/TLC313115RF_762x39.jpg

The bullet is gently touching the lands in both rifles. This little puppy should work. I cast with a Lyman #2 clone with some bird shot added and water quench at the drop. They typically settle in at 19 to 21 BHN. I will put the wood to them next week.

Today, I shot the Remington Premium 125-grain PSP ammo that I had been given through the Scout. This rifle is very accurate.

[Ranch Dog]

I updated the terminal performance charts to include my TLC313-115-RF bullet.

[NYBushBro]

Shameless bump...

[Dthunter]

I took a Ruger Hawk eye, compact in 7.62x39, and made a few easy changes.

I relaced the shortened magazine well with a 308 winchester one i had kicking around.
Put in a .308 win magazine follower and spring.

Now I can seat my 311299's and 311644's to the rifling and have the base of the boolet near perfect in the bottom of the neck.

I have been shooting varget. It shoots pretty good! About 1-1/4" at 100. The loaded rounds feed fairly well from the magazine. But I can only put 3 rounds in the magazine and get good feeding.

Its a fun rifle! My Next step with this rifle is to rebarrel it with a 1:12" Shilen, match select palma taper barrel. Maybe part it off at 20" or 18". A nice short bull barreled carbine. I can hardly Wait!

[seabreeze133]

Wonder if there is a Mauser action/rifle that could be readily rebarreled to 7.62x39?

seabreeze

[Artful]

Mini Mauser's were/are imported ready to go - you can convert a larger one but have to fool with bolt head/extractor - more work and makes a heavier gun.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/762x39MauserWASRconversion.jpg - unless you like fooling with stuff get a commercial model

CZ
http://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com/model-carbine-rifle-03050-bolt-action-walnut-stock-blue-finish-p-23477.html
http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz359/Liquidmetalpics/906baf0f.jpg

Ruger M77 Mk2
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Hunting%20Rifles/Ruger762x38062411005.jpg

ZASTAVA M85, 7.62X39 BOLT ACTION aka "MINI MAUSER" was also imported by Interarms Viscount or Whitworth Mini Mark X, Remington 799 and others.
http://centerfiresystems.com/ri1975-n.aspx
http://www.impactguns.com/zastava-m85-inmini-mauserin-bolt-action-rifle-cal-762x39mm-ri1975-n.aspx
http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz359/Liquidmetalpics/906baf0f.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_01839.JPG

[kens]

I rebarrelled a small ring 98 in 7.62x39. It was a booger to get it to feed. The extractor does extract ok. I used a sks follower, a m1 carbine mag spring, and a filler block in the mag well.
It shoots very nice though.
I posted a few loads in another topic on this site.

[Ranch Dog]

Now to the latest on my 10 FCM. It is on the way back to Savage for a review. The accuracy potential of the rifle isn't there no matter how or what I do which includes the use of 7 different brands of ammo. It has not been able to remain within my 2.5 MOA requirement on a consistent basis so I have stopped hunting with it. The chamber impression tells the truth and that is that the chamber is over spec and the barrel under. To help you visualize, it is like you are shooting a bullet into the horn end of a trumpet. This might be Savage's attempt to use the shorter cartridge in a 308 Win action and barrel. In any case, the rifle (my rifle?) is not built to the SAAMI 7.62x39 spec. There would be no way to design a cast bullet for this rifle, it would be physically impossible.

I contacted Savage Customer Service this week and they decided to have me send the rifle back to be review. They wanted the CAD drawings from my chamber impression which I included as part of my notes about the rifle. Now, it is just a wait to see what they do to correct the issue and that might take a while with the holidays. If this is how they build a 7.62x39, the rifle will be immediately put on the rack of my FLL. I hope this is not the case as I like the concept and quality of the rifle. Still, it haunts me that this might be how Savage decided to make this model in this cartridge. If this is the case, I will go to the Zastava M85 Mini Mauser in the change out.

It is kind of bad when the Rossi Single Shot, which cost a quarter of the price, is shooting groups with the same ammo which are exactly a quarter of the size of the Savage. You would expect it to be the other way around. The only thing that needs to be cured on the Rossi is the light strikes on the CCI primers which will be dealt with as soon as hunting season is finished.

I've actually been shooting my TLC313-115-RF with great success from the Rossi in that it has SAAMI cut barrel and chamber, it fits like a glove. As I noted in the closing sentence of the above paragraph, I'm experiencing light hammer strikes against the CCI primer with that rifle. I have gotten around that problem when solving another issue that was looking for an answer! I was given a huge amount of Wolf ammo but I did not what to shoot the steel core stuff through my barrels... just a personal preference. I pulled the bullets and tossed them along with the powder and then reloaded the cases with my powders and the TLC313. Works like a charm and the Rossi has no issues with the primers on the Wolf cases!

Just waiting to hear what Savage has to say.

[Dr. A]

CZ only goes by the CIP spec chamber, and has good luck with that. I believe they as a gun (527's) used to have light strikes on primers as well. That has not been a problem with recent guns as far as I've seen. Mine has been the easiest to shoot cast of any gun I've had. Sorry to hear about your troubles!

[Bullshop Junior]

Now to the latest on my 10 FCM. It is on the way back to Savage for a review. The accuracy potential of the rifle isn't there no matter how or what I do which includes the use of 7 different brands of ammo. It has not been able to remain within my 2.5 MOA requirement on a consistent basis so I have stopped hunting with it. The chamber impression tells the truth and that is that the chamber is over spec and the barrel under. To help you visualize, it is like you are shooting a bullet into the horn end of a trumpet. This might be Savage's attempt to use the shorter cartridge in a 308 Win action and barrel. In any case, the rifle (my rifle?) is not built to the SAAMI 7.62x39 spec. There would be no way to design a cast bullet for this rifle, it would be physically impossible.

I contacted Savage Customer Service this week and they decided to have me send the rifle back to be review. They wanted the CAD drawings from my chamber impression which I included as part of my notes about the rifle. Now, it is just a wait to see what they do to correct the issue and that might take a while with the holidays. If this is how they build a 7.62x39, the rifle will be immediately put on the rack of my FLL. I hope this is not the case as I like the concept and quality of the rifle. Still, it haunts me that this might be how Savage decided to make this model in this cartridge. If this is the case, I will go to the Zastava M85 Mini Mauser in the change out.

It is kind of bad when the Rossi Single Shot, which cost a quarter of the price, is shooting groups with the same ammo which are exactly a quarter of the size of the Savage. You would expect it to be the other way around. The only thing that needs to be cured on the Rossi is the light strikes on the CCI primers which will be dealt with as soon as hunting season is finished.

I've actually been shooting my TLC313-115-RF with great success from the Rossi in that it has SAAMI cut barrel and chamber, it fits like a glove. As I noted in the closing sentence of the above paragraph, I'm experiencing light hammer strikes against the CCI primer with that rifle. I have gotten around that problem when solving another issue that was looking for an answer! I was given a huge amount of Wolf ammo but I did not what to shoot the steel core stuff through my barrels... just a personal preference. I pulled the bullets and tossed them along with the powder and then reloaded the cases with my powders and the TLC313. Works like a charm and the Rossi has no issues with the primers on the Wolf cases!

Just waiting to hear what Savage has to say.


All the savages, I have ever had were extreamly accurate, but I can standup to their chambers being off sometimes. I had a brand new 7mm/08 that would not chamber factory ammo. The neck was so tight that if i fire formed 243 cases, I would still have to turn the necks to get leaded ammo to chamber, and then the case neck was so thin, they cracked first or second shot. Only thing was, since it was so tight, with a short throat, it shot amazing and thats what I cared about.

Knowing savage, considering I have had more savage rifles then anything else put together, if there is something wrong, they will fix it. When i fianlly did send back the 7/08 they even rebarreled it to 22/250 for me and didn't charge me.

[Ranch Dog]

Thanks for the replies guys...

I had considered the CZ but don't care for the extended magazine. Of course, that is just a personal thing on my part as I think it would be a great alternative.

I'm reserving my judgement to give Savage the chance to correct the situation to my satisfaction. If they come back with "that's the way we make it", I will try to get them to rechamber it to 300 Savage at no expense. I had originally contacted their custom gun shop about that work in this rifle and they said "can and would like to do" for $288. I'm not going to put any more into the rifle but would take that as an alternative. Not interested in a 308 Win in return as they can be had for about $200 less than the 7.62x39 chambering in the 10 FCM.

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why Mossberg, Savage, Remington, Ruger, and Winchester have not offered this cartridge in their base models. I think it would be an immediate hit. Instead, those that offer it have done so in their premium priced models and it has had limited success.

[Mk42gunner]

Sorry to read about your troubles with your Savage. Hopefully it was just a screwup that made it out the door, it sounds like they will make it right.

Regarding the Zastava, (mine is the Charles Daly version that had the rollover comb Monte Carlo and a beavertail forearm) the only thing I don't really like is the trigger assembly. It took a lot of adjusting to get it to have a decent trigger pull and to get the safety work every time. I may replace it when I do the stock.

I do like the smaller action for this cartridge over the Savage.

Robert

[NVScouter]

As a CZ 527 owner I think that magazine is fine. Any bigger or longer, or a heavier rifle then yes. But the 527 beats the Zastava hands down, and are line bored. Set triggers are amazing as well. If you want accuracy go with the CZ.

[Jeff H]

.............I had considered the CZ but don't care for the extended magazine.................

I have one 527 - a .223 walnut-stocked varmint model and the protruding magazine is behind the balance point with the heavier barrel, which is nice. I believe that as much as I love this rifle, the protruding mag in a shorter, lighter model would not deter me.

What would deter me is the fact that the magazines are detachable and neither of mine worked, band new. Being detachable (losable, damageable...) will make you want to buy some spares, which will make you want to buy some personal lubricant too. Some like the detachable mags, and I like certain aspects of them too but the cost and poor track record (in my limited experience) tips the scales against for me.

I really, really love my 527, but would take my chances on a Zastava on my next go. A 7.62x39 would be the choice. If I had a sack full of Zastava M85 actions, I would have wildcats on that case shooting .257", .264" and .358" bullets too. One thing to remember is that the Zastava has more of a Sako style extractor. They called them "Mini-Mausers" but the CZ is much closer to the Mauser than the Zastava is. That would not deter me either but the Mini-Mauser moniker is slightly misleading.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Ranch Dog: Where did you get the grips for the CZ82? That is the best looking set I have ever seen on one of those pistols and there just isn't a whole lot available for them in the aftermarket.

I have a Russian Makarov and the CZ is a far superior gun.

Randy

[Ranch Dog]

Ranch Dog: Where did you get the grips for the CZ82? That is the best looking set I have ever seen on one of those pistols and there just isn't a whole lot available for them in the aftermarket.

Randy, here is the link to Designer Grips (http://www.designergrips.com/). I looks like he might be closed for health reasons.

For those interested... I like to conceal carry with kydex type holsters and they are tough to find for the CZ82. Fobus has a nice one but no kydex magazine pouches (I always CC with a double on my support side). I found CZ82 pouches at StrikeHardGear (http://www.strikehardgear.com/cz-82-magazine-pouch/), they actually made me a double pouch. If I hadn't already had the Fobus holster, I would have bought theirs.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mike: thanks for the links etc.. Been looking at getting a CZ 82 from J&G Sales for along time. A friend got one from them and it is his concealed carry gun as well. Playing with his gun is where I got familiar with the pistol and as said earlier they are superior to Maks.

Thanks for the other links too. It is getting harder to find accessories for these guns. My Mak has a FAC extended barrel with a compensator on it which makes all the difference in the world to that gun. It could use better sights as they are almost invisible in anything but direct sunlight. Probably not that big a deal considering the distances you'd probably shoot at. Still it would be nice to have something to look at.

I need to get a mould for Mak boolits and set up the turret lathe to trim a bunch of 9MM brass. I've been saving 9mm brass for 10 years with the express purpose of making Makarov ammo.

Anyway thanks for the info.

Randy

[NVScouter]

FYI 2.5 MOA is very generous. I expect MOA at least after some finish work. I have 2 45-70s tha give 1.5 MOA. Worse and the rifle is a clunker.

[Ranch Dog]

Yes it is very generous but well below my expectation of what Savage is capable of. I expected 1.25 or less.

[Nrut]

I like to carry a iron sited rifle like a Win. 94 or 92, and single shots in one hand no sling..

While I have a CZ 527 in 7.62X39 and it is a joy to shoot I don't take it hunting because of that friggin' magazine..

There is a fellow in the states that will cut down the magazine and modify the mag. well so the mag. doesn't hang down so much..
Found the link:
http://rvbprecision.com/shooting/cz-527-rifle-magazine-conversion.html
Roy is a member here and his screen name is rbertalotto..

If you are using a scope then I suppose the extend mag. doesn't hurt..

Except for the "where did I put it" question..:roll:

[fireball168]

Looks like I should make another run of 7.62x39 Savage barrels shortly.

[Dr. A]

Looks like I should make another run of 7.62x39 Savage barrels shortly.

What spec do you make these barrels too? Are they like the Savage, or regular CIP dimensions?

[rockrat]

If you do, make some of them 20" tubes and maybe one or two 24" heavy barrel jobs!!!

[fireball168]

What spec do you make these barrels too? Are they like the Savage, or regular CIP dimensions?

I've done both .308" and .310" groove barrels, the reamers are virtually the same other than freebore diameter(.0005" over groove) .065" total freebore, 1 degree 30 minute throats. Not CIP.

[mikeym1a]

RE: M/V Glenn Edwards, what do you do with the dirt you dredge up? Does it go onto land or get taken into the gulf and dumped? Seems to me it might make good enrichment soil. Obviously, I know nothing about the matter. :wink:

[seabreeze133]

RD

Well my interest is high in a 7.62x39 either Rossi or H &R. Cannot find either. Is this something discontinued or was yours a custom barrel?

seabreeze

[rockrat]

I believe RD's gun is a factory gun. Was looking into ordering one, luckily they were all out, from RD's report. Expected better quality from Savage.

[Ranch Dog]

RD

Well my interest is high in a 7.62x39 either Rossi or H &R. Cannot find either. Is this something discontinued or was yours a custom barrel?
My Rossi Single Shot is a production rifle, a R762MB, which is the wood stocked rifle. I want to say that production stopped on this model in 2005. The R762MBS followed it, this is a synthetic stocked rifle and it was produced up until about three years ago.

The best bet is to watch GunBroker for one. It is a great rifle cut to and barreled to the SAAMI spec.


I believe RD's gun is a factory gun. Was looking into ordering one, luckily they were all out, from RD's report. Expected better quality from Savage.
I'm going to give Savage the benefit of the doubt and see what they do or say about the rifle. Just wait and see I guess. I do know that I'm not going to spend another dime on the rifle, either it gets right or it's gone. I've also cooled a bit on a bolt rifle replacement, as the Rossi Single Shot is a great shooting rifle and satisfying me.

[TheGrimReaper]

Looks like I should make another run of 7.62x39 Savage barrels shortly.

YEP!!! and 6.5 Grendel!!!

[jwhite]

I just picked up a new Zastava mini Mauser in 7.62x39 and it is great, super nice wood with an oil finish and good, solid iron sights. I have an older Zastava that was imported by Charles Daly and this new one beats it hands down, we actually ordered three of these and my friend ended up with one that the wood is exhibition grade, almost too nice to use! Quality of these is a lot better than the ones imported by Remington a few years back as the 799. Getting ready to go try it out right now.
JW

[Artful]

Jwhite - where's your pictures - we want to see your Zastava and your friends too!

[NVScouter]

I played with the Savage Scout in .308 today side by side with the Ruger Gunsite Scout in .308 and I'm amazed at how much heavier the Savage with plastic stock was than the Ruger.

[HawkCreek]

I've never handled a Savage but the listed weight is less than the listed weight for the Ruger. Not sure how far off either one is though, not sure why it'd feel that much different. People think the laminate stocks on the Rugers are heavy but they are somewhere around 2 to 2.5 pounds, not real heavy at all IMO.

[NVScouter]

It may hav been balance instead if weight in actuality. But it sure felt heavier.

[jwhite]

937079370893709"Jwhite - where's your pictures - we want to see your Zastava and your friends too! "

[Artful]

Oh, I like that stock - pretty
- how is it getting down to the irons?

[jwhite]

Oh, I like that stock - pretty
- how is it getting down to the irons?

The iron sights lined up perfect for me, face on the stock and there they are, you don't need to mash your face at all. I could not be happier with it, i ordered a 2.5x compact leupold to go on it but am thinking about adapter a receiver sight to fit the back scope mount holes as well.

JW

[GabbyM]

Very nice rifle jwhite.
I bought a CZ527 last week in 222 rem. Looked for a Zastava but Century arms didn’t show any 222 in stock. I like the Bavarian stock on the LUX and the 24 inch barrel too. Got it for $607 old stock price, which is about $70 under what they are listed for now. I never did see a price on the Zastava as Century Arms doesn’t list prices. I like the looks of the Zastava 7.62x39 Mannlicher.
http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civilianproduct/sporting-rifle-m85-mannlicher

CZ is IMHO dropping the ball and loosing there 550 Mauser in favor of a push feed rifle. Zastava will very likely benefit from the loss of competition. There M70 in 30-06 is a very attractive rifle.

[NYBushBro]

Any further developments on the RD 7.62x39 bullet?

[Ranch Dog]

Any further developments on the RD 7.62x39 bullet?

Nothing yet, Savage still has my rifle.

[Ranch Dog]

Had the opportunity to do a bit more work on a 7.62x39 bullet. The Savage Scout is not back but for all purposes it is out of the picture more than likely. That leaves me with the Rossi R762 and still not sure what I'm going to do from here as far as another rifle goes, this might be it as it is serving my purposes rather well. Here is my Rossi...

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/Firearms/R762MB/images/R762.jpg

Honestly, and it is my opinion, I don't think the 7.62x39 is a good candidate for a cast bullet. There is a huge amount of freebore & leade (throat) cut into the chamber and this must be filled for a good fit and support at combustion. This area causes a big chunk of lead to be forward of the case neck but this effects bullet balance as there is not much case neck to counterbalance the effort it took to fill the throat. There are a couple of reasons why this cartridge has the huge throat that it does and I think it stems to what in part has made this cartridge known for being able operate in extreme conditions. I'm sure you could dip a cartridge in mud, let it dry and the cartridge would chamber and fire. That would be one purpose for the freebore, no matter how dirty the chamber gets, you will have a functioning firearm that will defend you.

A couple of points of how I work with a new design: Bullet weight never is a starting point. The chamber will dictate that. I only consider gas checked designs. My interest is a bullet that will match jacketed bullet velocities and a plain base will not do that. The bullet body must be contained within the case neck.
In the drawing that follows, I used a SAAMI spec chamber (my Rossi is extremely close to this). You will also notice that the brass at the cartridge neck does not match the crimp groove. That is because I used the cut my Lee Case Trimmer delivered, I figure that cut is as short as it will get.

With these points in mind, here is where I'm at right now; a .313" tumble lubed bullet with a tapered top band to fill the throat that weighs in at 130-grains with an alloy of wheel weights mixed with 2% tin with the Hornady 30 caliber gas check.

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC313130RF/chamber/TLC313-130-RF_SAAMI_small.jpg

The bullet has a 72% meplat that I favor for terminal killing authority. I've run it through QuickLoad and I have no doubt I would spit this out the barrel of my R762 at 2500 FPS with H335.

Al at NOE called me just yesterday and wanted to know where I was at with this and I told him I didn't think it was going to work. I think a lot shooters will look at that top band and simply not like it but this is what it will take to fill the void in the 7.62x39 chamber.

I want to take another chamber cast of my Rossi and will ponder it some more. Next week, I will be gone on my final hunting trip of the winter and will then spend some more time with it. I'm also not sure that this will end up as a group buy on my part either, the buys I did this past year really wore on me.

[Jacko.357]

Ranchdog, I have just found this thread but vaguely remember reading recently of you looking at designing a Cast Projectile for this Calibre, probably across on the Rossi Forum. In my neck of the woods Jacketed Projectiles run at $1.00 - $1.50 each so I am very keen to get onto a 7.62x39 Mould. I need a Projectile designed to Hunt with so like the big Metplat.

Here's my single shot Baikal IZH18 7.62x39. I had the 11mm Dovetail machined off the Receiver and a Remington 700 LA Mount modified to fit. At the front it mounts where the rear sight used to be. It has a Weaver K series 4x28 Scout Scope. The triggers been tricked up and soon the barrel will be docked to 18" or so.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff55/jackoarcher/P4220147_zpsf3b1c8a7.jpg (http://s243.photobucket.com/user/jackoarcher/media/P4220147_zpsf3b1c8a7.jpg.html)

edited this post, been thinking ???? - I have tried 3 Cast Projectiles in this Rifle, a Lyman 195 gr, a Lee 185 gr and a 180 gr commercial Hardcast, all had a Bore riding nose, accuracy was not great but then again I made no attempt to work up loads. The faster I drive 150 gr Speer Hot Cores the tighter they group. This photo's a little deceptive but the Rifling meets the Chamber abruptly with no Leade or Throat. The end of the Case neck on Factory Rounds actually had impressions from the Rifling. Trimmed with a Lee Case Trimmer this feature disappeared

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff55/jackoarcher/P4220150_zps0858b010.jpg (http://s243.photobucket.com/user/jackoarcher/media/P4220150_zps0858b010.jpg.html)

I have some thinking to do about Cast Projectiles and this Rifle. I am not sure if a Projectile as you have pictured above Ranchdog would Chamber in my Rifle.

regards Jacko