Accuracy

[accooper]

What kind of accuracy can I expect out of cast bullets in such calibers as .308 and 7.62X39?

Andrew

[btroj]

Depends.
Rifle quality makes a huge difference. It also comes down to casting quality, right lube, right load, and good shooting technique.

If you can get 1 inch groups for 5 shots at 100 you are doing quite well.

[accooper]

I have a Ruger models in both 7.62X39 and .308. I average about .75 inch groups in both with my hand loads with jacketed bullets.

Andrew

[Bret4207]

Under an inch at 100 when things come together. Several feet at 25 yards when they don't.

[Larry Gibson]

Excellent accuracy if you have rifles capable of it, your casting and handloading skills are capable of making quality ammunition and your shooting skills are up to it.

Most often on this forum we focus on solving perceived accuracy problems related to the first two reasons and very seldom the third reason which is many times the probable reason for "inaccuracy". I've trained thousands of soldiers, LEO's and civilians worldwide in marksmanship. I've watched many people shooting at private and commercial ranges over the years. Many of them, if not most, have had little or no correct marksmanship training/instruction and mimic shooting they've seen in movies, on TV or in magazines......most of which is poor at best.

A case in point; recent at a range I observed 2 young men who, from there tattoo's and the windshield sticker on the PU I perceived were Marines. They were shooting an M4 style AR and an AK which from their conversation they had just purchased. They were shooting at a reduced B27 target at 50 yards. Their standing "position" was what is currently taught with body armor on (the Army teaches it also) which is to put the butt to the inside of the shoulder pocket over the breast and hold the rifle straight out in front of you. I wondered where this "position" came from but we now see some shooters in competition using it for whatever reason. Anyway the shots of these two were wild with few hitting the target frame let alone the B27 silhouette. I watched them for a while and then offered some assistance which they accepted. I asked if they were Marines and why they were shooting that way. They were and because that's how they were taught before deployment. I asked if they shot that way in marksmanship training during boot camp. Both vigorously said no and one said if they had tried the DI's would have knocked the snot out of them..........I said there was a good reason for that as their last 50 shots or so had just proven. I sat them down at the bench and we first zeroed the rifles and asked why they hadn't done that. They said the M4s they were issued were supposed to be "zeroed" so they didn't need to (?????? and I heard the same cr*p in the Army.......). After zeroing I walked them through a proper off hand position for rapid target engagement not target shooting. They both said it was the same their DI showed them in boot camp (no I'm not a Marine) and I suggested they should remember and pay attention to what that DI told/taught them as he knew what he was talking about. They then proceeded to "smoke" the 50 yard target so we moved it to 200 yards and they "smoked" it there also. The point here is that proper shooting skills and abilities are necessary for "accuracy". Without such there will be no "accuracy" regardless of the quality of rifle or ammunition.

Larry Gibson

[popper]

What Btroj says + alloy, expected fps. MOA is not that hard to do in 308, I think xacex is close to that with SKS, iron sights. I think he & I are close to max jacketed loads with PC.
Larry - enlighten us on the proper off-hand rifle shooting stance. I've only read the Canadian shooting guide. BC only focused on prone & sitting, M1. As an older guy with worn out body, I need all the guidance I can get. Maybe a sticky ?

[runfiverun]

I expect the rifle to shoot to it's potential.
if I have a beat up old ww-1 rifle then I expect something in the 3" area or so [from jaxketed]
if you measure the thing and put in the effort you can get cast boolits to go into groups smaller than the rifle was ever expected to shoot.
you're average everyday hunting rifle will give groups in the 1" area or so.

[Kraschenbirn]

With the exception of my all-out match or varmit guns, I expect boolit accuracy within 1 MOA of the best I can obtain with jacketed handloads of the same weight. This sometimes requires considerable time and effort but it's a standard that, so far, I've been able to achieve or exceed. As a sidebar, my cast loads are more accurate than ball ammo in EVERY one of my old (WWII or earlier) milsurps...including my M1 Garand.

Bill

[tomme boy]

I think if you can shoot 1" groups at 100yds with cast, you are way ahead of the average cast boolit shooter. To get better you are going to have to be completely perfect in just about every aspect of casting and reloading and shooting.

I have a Savage 308 win rifle that has a custom barrel and the receiver has been trued to the barrel. I shoot groups in the low .2''s with jacketed. But with cast, I'm getting right around .8-.9" groups with 3 different cast boolits. I have got one down to .6" groups at a really modest 1600 fps. When you try to go fast, that is when thing have to be perfect. My rifle has a rifling twist that is not ideal to cast boolits. Just one more factor you have to take into consideration.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry - enlighten us on the proper off-hand rifle shooting stance. I've only read the Canadian shooting guide. BC only focused on prone & sitting, M1. As an older guy with worn out body, I need all the guidance I can get. Maybe a sticky ?

The correct off hand (standing) position well suited for combat and hunting has been well covered in US Army Manuals since Col Laidley’s A Course Of Instruction In Rifle Firing, 1879 and Lt. Whelen’s Suggestions To Military Riflemen, 1909. The offhand position has changed some over the years with the change from straight wrist stocks to pistol grip stocks and now to real pistol grip stocks such as the FN/AKs and M16s. However, the basics of the position remain the same. The target positions for offhand shooting are not what I was referring to in the above post.

An excellent description of the correct off hand position for a pistol gripped stock such as a M70, M700, M77, M1A, etc. can be found in FM 23-71, Rifle Marksmanship and later versions of FM 28-8, M14 And M14A1 Rifles And Rifle Marksmanship. It is described as;

“The standing position is used in the assault, to engage surprise targets and/or when no other position is available.” To assume the standing position the firer faces his target, executes a right face and spreads his feet a comfortable distance apart. With his right hand at the small of the stock he places the rifle butt high against the shoulder so the sights are level with the eyes. He holds his right elbow high to form a pocket in his right shoulder. This also permits him to exert a strong rearward pressure with his right arm and hand. He places his left hand under the rifle in a position to best assist in supporting and steadying the rifle. To complete the position the firer should shift his feet until he is aiming naturally at the target.”

85673



FM 23-9, M16A1 and M16A2 change standing position description to;

Standing position; to assume the standing position, the soldier faces his target, executes a facing movement to his firing side (applies to both right and left handed firers) and spreads his feet a comfortable distance apart. With his firing hand on the pistol grip and his nonfiring hand on the bottom of the handguard the soldier places the butt of the rifle in the pocket formed by the firing shoulder so the sights are level with the eyes. The weight of the rifle is supported by the firing shoulder pocket and nonfiring hand. The soldier shifts his feet until he is aiming naturally at the target and his weight is evenly distributed on both feet…….

85674


In FM 3-22.9 for the M16A2 and M4 series rifles it says this with regard to shooting with body armor on;

“The new BRM (Basic Rifle Marksmanship) strategy includes the wearing of Interceptor body armor (IBA) minus the throat, collar, and groin attachments during all BRM periods and concurrent training.
Though the conditions have changed, marksmanship fundamentals remain unchanged.
Improper wear and fit of IBA impedes a soldier’s marksmanship ability. Prior to BRM
training, use an IBA immersion approach so the soldier can adapt to weight and
movement restrictions. Incrementally introduce the outer tactical vest (OTV) and
front/back small arms protective insert (SAPI) plates for an easier weight transition.
While the natural “pocket of the shoulder” is covered by the OTV, the buttstock is still
placed where the “pocket” would be.

85677


That was the basic off hand/standing position I retrained those 2 Marines in so they could hit the target (accuracy). Of course the offhand/standing position is not conducive to testing loads. A solid prone supported of good bench rest is best to use when testing loads for accuracy. Yet, if one observes closely, we will see very poor bench rest shooting techniques used to test loads also. Just as with shooting offhand there is one right way to get the best results and many wrong ways that get wrong results in “accuracy”. A good instructor/coach refines these basic instructions and through practice the shooter gets fluid in moving into and out of these positions. The shooter through practice can then refine slight variation in technique to fit the shooting situation he finds himself in when a standing/offhand position is necessary.

Unfortunately when we ask someone if they know how to shoot properly/well and can execute proper marksmanship either from field positions or from the bench they most often get insulted. Apparently many think we are indeed “born riflemen”. We are not. Some seek advice here to improve their shooting skills and more power to them. To those who get insulted it is difficult for us to help so to avoid confrontation we often just focus on either the gun or the loads for a failure of “accuracy” when in fact it is most often “shooter error”. That is too bad because learning fundamental marksmanship skills is not that difficult, it is fun and when we see what we can really do with proper marksmanship skills it can be very personally satisfying.

Larry Gibson

[dverna]

Larry.

Anyone who claims he has an accurate load and is using the standing position is full of it. I agree that most "riflemen" are rather pathetic. All the more reason to NEVER do accuracy testing unless you use a bench and a good rest. Anything else is just plinking - as far as I am concerned.

I see accuracy claims for hand held pistols at 7 yards - these people are living in a fools paradise.

To the OP,
In a modern rifle, use jacketed performance as a benchmark. If your .308 does 1 MOA with jacketed, that is the best you will get with cast. And the reality is most factory rifles out of the box cannot shoot 1 moa even with jacketed for 10 shots. Of course, not many will admit that and so they shoot 3 shot groups and will eventually get a sub moa group and be happy - more residents of the fools paradise.

Don Verna

[Larry Gibson]

dverna

Anyone who claims he has an accurate load and is using the standing position is full of it.

Apparently you've not watched a Master or particularly a High Master shoot the 200 yard offhand stage of the NMC.

Otherwise I do not mean that load testing be done offhand. The above dissertation was simply in response to popper's request for the proper offhand position. I have watched many shooters shooting from bench positions (the bench was there but the position certainly wasn't) and they could hit a 6" bull at 100 yards much less produce a good "group" with very good rifles and very good ammunition. Reason being they simply did not know how to shoot or have a clue as to marksmanship fundamentals. Could say it was not their fault for not knowing but instruction is available and printed material is also. Unfortunately many buy a gun and go shooting with perceived notions they can shoot. Isn't so, like anything else marksmanship is learned. Best to learn it correctly, like how to properly shoot from a bench rest position, before testing loads. Complaining about inaccuracy of the gun or ammunition when you really can't shoot accurately from a bench is a problem. It's not difficult to learn how nor to do consistently.

Larry Gibson

[codgerville@zianet.com]

Larry.

Anyone who claims he has an accurate load and is using the standing position is full of it. I agree that most "riflemen" are rather pathetic. All the more reason to NEVER do accuracy testing unless you use a bench and a good rest. Anything else is just plinking - as far as I am concerned.

I see accuracy claims for hand held pistols at 7 yards - these people are living in a fools paradise.

To the OP,
In a modern rifle, use jacketed performance as a benchmark. If your .308 does 1 MOA with jacketed, that is the best you will get with cast. And the reality is most factory rifles out of the box cannot shoot 1 moa even with jacketed for 10 shots. Of course, not many will admit that and so they shoot 3 shot groups and will eventually get a sub moa group and be happy - more residents of the fools paradise.

Don Verna

If you think I can't shoot a hand held pistol accurately at 7 yards, come on over and I'll show you where the bear went through the buckwheat. The instructors at CCW range got their eyes opened.

[MT Chambers]

The .308 Win. is the winningest cart. in CBA bench rest(Cast boolits only) Production class with many groups coming in under .750" at a hunnert yards, usually from a heavy barrel Savage or Remington 700 factory only. Prolly the winningest bullet is the saeco #315 or one of D. Eagans famous molds.

[Digital Dan]

I wouldn't do load development offhand. You wouldn't want me shooting at you offhand anywhere inside 200-250 yards with a smokeless CF rifle or inside of 100 yards with any of several revolvers. Man sized target is fairly easy at those ranges.

[1Shirt]

Accuracy to me is whatever is satisfactory to the shooter. If you are a benchrester, you are looking for the magic one inch 5 shot group at 100. If a hunter, a 3" group at 100 yds is most likely minute of deer. If you are a tin can plinker, it is just hitting the can.
1Shirt!

[Win94ae]

I'm glad there are so many people here that are able to shoot well, and understand the true potential of firearms. I can't stand most firearm sites with the defeatist's constant drum beat of "No one can do that!"

[waksupi]

I've got to agree. I shoot mice and voles in my garden with my .45 at up to 15 yards. I've noticed if a person shoots a lot, the more accurate their hand gun gets.

[Love Life]

To me, the shooter is the most important piece of the trifecta, followed by the rifle, followed by the ammo.

You can work with the ammo, but if the first to pieces suck then nothing else is going to work out well.

[geargnasher]

One of the technical terms being tossed around so much by the tacticool crowd these days is actually meaningful: "Weapon System".

Gear

[MUSTANG]

+1 on the information that Larry Gibson posted on proper shooting offhand. Spot on for rifles from the 1800's (Percussion) to date. Slight adjustments in technique for the changes in rifle design, through today's straight line rifle styles; including the shorty M4. I have shot many a tight group offhand at 200 yards with M1/M14/M1a/M16 during my military career and civilian competitions. Even had fair success with off hand using a Hawken .50cal. Effective and well disciplined practice is the key

If the boolit & load selected can be made to shoot well in bench development, it will shoot well off hand if the shooter is up too it. Of course, as Sgt Troutman (USMC Drill Instructor of many years ago) stated to platoon 1008, "If you have the time and tactical advantage, use a sitting or a prone position with sling, well aimed hits on the Target is the objective, misses do not count and they may get you killed".

In our case, a 2 to 3 MOA Boolit Load will hit a tighter area with a sling (sitting or prone) than the same load in a good offhand stance (or far better than a poor off hand stance). It all begins with a good quality boolit matched to the rifle, followed by a well developed load, and then at the moment of ignition the skill & experience of the Marksman comes into play. Leave out any of these elements, and it starts going wide from there.

Mustang

[milprileb]

Jezzz, a good discussion by folks who can shoot ! How often does that happen ?
1 inch MOA with cast bullets at 100 yds and 4 MOA at 300yds with cast bullets requires properly sized bullet in an accurate rifle and the shooter being competent. Just has to be that way. I do these MOA results off the lead sled on the bench but not anywhere else.

Usually I get 1.5 MOA at 100 yds with the cast bullets out of my Garand or No.1MKIII Enfield and thats all slung up and in the prone. My errors are more dynamic to accuracy than any other element .

In theory my cast bullets go out slower so I have to really concentrate on my marksmanship skills if the accuracy is going to show on the target. Follow through , exaggerated helps when I shoot cast bullets and you know...follow thru exaggerated in practice eliminates a ton of issues on my part.

[Doc Highwall]

You don't need a bench rest setup to test loads if you are a good prone shooter with a masters or high master classification. I will admit slower velocity requires a better follow through just ask a smallbore shooter.

[.30/30 Guy]

I have several rifles that will do 1" or better at 100 yards with cast. When I climb behind them they are all over the place!

The rifles are good for the 1" but I am only part of the time. Boils down to same hold and follow through each shot.

[Digital Dan]

Thoughts on the original inquiry:

The question has two parts, one being accuracy potential of cast bullets, the second referencing the .308 and 7.62x39. The second part has been addressed for the most part. The first, not so much in my opinion.

Consensus in this thread is that something in the range of MOA is doable with cast bullets, but it gets more challenging as a matter of quality control if one wishes to equal the precision that can be found with jacketed bullets. Generally speaking I am in agreement. Also noted is the requirement for performance of the "system", or that combination of rifle, load and shooter.

I am of the general opinion that most any firearm can perform reasonably well wit cast bullets. I also think that a great many modern cartridges were designed to perform with jacketed bullets and smokeless powder. It does not mean they can't shoot lead, but the myriad of variables involved may not easily align for precision with cast bullets. Please differentiate precision and accuracy here. Accuracy goes to placement, precision is a matter of repeatability.

Comparative examples are easy to identify. Bottleneck large capacity cases are not, in my opinion, well suited for cast bullets. Straight wall cases are. I won't get into the fine points of dimensions or other aspects that are abundantly present, but in simple terms trying to equal smokeless velocities common with jacketed bullets is a tall order if precision is required. Pursuit of precision at lower velocity reduces the influences of imbalance for example, but increases that of drift. It's a give and take situation.

My thoughts are fairly simple and as they are my thoughts I'm likely continue down my chosen path. Cast or swaged lead bullets are equal to jacketed bullets in potential insofar as precision. Realizing that potential requires much higher performance of the bullet maker, loader and shooter.

I note both present and past performance with lead bullets is quite high. Harry Pope built a gun over a century ago which set a record that was not beaten for well over 50 years. If you can't shoot lead as well as jacketed bullets, don't blame the lead.

[Doc Highwall]

The largest obstacle shooting lead bullets is the fact that 99% of the reloading dies are made for jacketed bullets. The second is reloaders trying to take shortcuts in their casting and reloading techniques.

[popper]

Thanks Larry, that is pretty much the same as the Canadian manual. Saw some actual (video) Spec Ops shooters using an overhand (left) hold, was wondering if stuff changed. My pistol shooting really improved after reading the Army 1911 comp. manual. Man was I doing things wrong.

[fcvan]

I would have to agree that shooting man sized targets at 100 yards off hand is not that difficult. Qualifying quarterly with a Mini 14 was never a problem. For a few years, we also used H&K 94 carbines in 9mm, a fun gun for sure. Shooting an AR platform rifle is a rather new and fun experience for me having recently completed 2 rifles. (A3, 16" 1 in 9", standard font sight, flip up rear sight) I took the second one out last weekend to adjust the sights and give it a little break in. Once I got the sights regulated to point of aim I shot a couple of groups.

First group, factory ammo.
85805

Second group, reloads. Lyman 225-415, powder coated and sized to .225 with gas check over 14 grains of 4227
85806

The thing is, I was shooting with iron sights and couldn't actually see the dot on the paper. I guessed based on the position of the dot on the paper in relation to the box the paper was stapled to. I think I could tighten up if I could see where I was aiming such as with a proper target. Oh ya, I was seated at a table with one of those plastic clamp on bipods. I'd like to see what the reloads do with good optics and a proper rest.

After making sure the new rifle hit to point of aim I was shooting off hand and consistently hitting a reactionary target (soda can) at 100 yards. I don't know much about minute of angle but I like minute of soda can :)

Just about every weapon I own shoots better than my eyes can see. The mechanics of proper shooting, handgun or long gun, were largely the result of good range masters with prior military experience. I was fortunate to get a lot of trigger time over the years on the agency's dime, and even more on my dime thanks to hand loading.

I am tickled pink with the performance of the powder coated cast boolits and this new rifle. I'm sure I can tweak the load to tighten up the groups but for now it cycles flawlessly and locks back on the last round from the magazine. I'm looking forward to running this rifle through the courses of fire used when I was on our version of SWAT.

[dondiego]

If you think I can't shoot a hand held pistol accurately at 7 yards, come on over and I'll show you where the bear went through the buckwheat. The instructors at CCW range got their eyes opened.

I think that dverna meant that shooting at 7 yards is a joke.

[Digital Dan]

No, 7 yards is a good place to decide if you're going to climb a tree or shoot the boar.

[milprileb]

You don't need a bench rest setup to test loads if you are a good prone shooter with a masters or high master classification. I will admit slower velocity requires a better follow through just ask a smallbore shooter.

Doc: its just faster for me to use the Lead Sled, off the bench for tests. Like a ransom rest for pistols. It also sets a mark in the sand for me to match when I do it from the prone as I know what the load will do. Works for me.

[geargnasher]

No, 7 yards is a good place to decide if you're going to climb a tree or shoot the boar.

LMAO!!! Dang skippy it is, if you're lucky enough for that much distance.

Gear