Impending CA lead hunting ban - Ever cast with pure tin?

[Bigslug]

With our dear Governor Moonbeam signing the ban on lead for hunting purposes, we've got five years to fight before it goes into effect, and, failing that, to come up with alternatives. Seems like tin would do the trick - expensive, but for hunting only, not outlandishly so.

Anyone been down this road yet? Tell us of your findings. (Or, do I get to be the guinea pig?)

[Shiloh]

If you are caught with them, won't they claim they are lead? Is is worth tempting fate??

Shiloh

[btroj]

Tin bullets would be pricey and light for size. Poor downrange ballistics and penetration.

Like Shiloh said, if it looks like lead it will be up you to prove it isn't. Got plenty of money for your defense? Lots of free time?

[dkf]

Instead of taking your ball and going home why don't you and your fellow Californian's try and get this **** changed? I have never seen residents of a state just bend over and take it like residents of California. It is like they have no fight in them whatsoever.

[btroj]

They have fight, they are just heavily outnumbered. Fighting hollyweird and SanFran isn't easy. Lots of morons in those places, morons with lots of money.

[bangerjim]

Really only alternative is solid Cu. Tin and Bismuth look so much like lead, you would have to have each slug authroized and documented!!!!!!!

Change the leadership. Too bad the left coast runs your state. The inland empire is conservative but not populated enough to fight those slobbering liberals in SF and LA.

I feel sorry for our fellow shooters over there. [smilie=b:

Least 'ya got five good years of hunting! :violin:

banger

[blikseme300]

Good luck in changing things in Kommiefornia. As long as it is easier to vote to get money instead of working for it there is no chance of changing that failed state. It would be less costly and more satisfying in the long run to move to a free state.

[Digger]

still think it would be fun on this side of the border ..... OOP's ... did my lead land over there ? ... oh darn .... :target_smiley:

[Lead Fred]

SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED

does not apply in CA and the other commie states

[dkf]

They have fight, they are just heavily outnumbered. Fighting hollyweird and SanFran isn't easy. Lots of morons in those places, morons with lots of money.

True. But over 40% of the population of New York is within NYC. A large number of New Yorkers are at least pulling together and fighting the BS safe act. I am not seeing near the movement of California residents. Most I talk to seem to just shrug and get used to it or just leave. Not the most fruitful way to handle things. The problem is all the BS in Kalifornia is giving the commie liberal gun grabbers ideas to push off on the rest of the US.

[tomme boy]

Like Shiloh said, if it looks like lead it will be up you to prove it isn't. Got plenty of money for your defense? Lots of free time?

Actually, they would have to prove it is lead. You don't have to prove anything.

[btroj]

True, but if you get ticketed or arrested it still costs you time and money to fight it.

Don't know about you but I don't have the time or money to deal with that BS. I would be using a known lead free bullet or hunting out of state.

[reloader28]

I've thought about making some #4 buck out of zinc for goose hunting. I think it would work good enough and save me a fortune in steel shot.

Some guys here are working with zinc boolit molds. I would look into it if it was me because I RARELY shoot anything but cast.

[uscra112]

In related news:
http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2013/10/end-of-an-era-last-us-lead-smelter-to-close-in-december.aspx

[Magana559]

You do not go to jail if you shoot game with lead ammo, worst thing that happens is you vet cited for using prohibited ammo, even then fish and game has to prove its prohibited ammo.

[waksupi]

Question for the lawyer types. Would the F&G need a search warrant, and reasonable cause to examine your ammunition? Wouldn't they need to witness a kill, and recover the bullet to prove it is lead? Is it illegal to have lead ammunition in your possession? Once again, if it is not in plain view, isn't a warrant required? If asked, I think the best course of action is to not answer the question, as to whether you have lead in your possession. More people are hung by their own tongue, than by a rope.

[Larry Gibson]

I've shot a lot of commercial cast "hard" bullets (15 - 22 +/- BHN) and got leading with all but a couple. However when I washed the hard wax lube off and relubed them with Javelina or a similar soft 50/50 lube I got very minimal to no leading.

On the other hand most all of my own cast handgun bullets are softer in the 10 - 12 BHN range and I use the softer 50/50 lubes or BAC and get no leading. As mentioned earlier there are a lot of old wife's tales that die hard. On many forums they are oft repeated because many of us who have disproven them do not go to those forums.

Larry Gibson

[NVScouter]

Not in California. I hunted blacktails there one year and fished twice on charter. Every time I was openly harrassed by F&G and by purchasing a fishing or hunting license you are giving permissions that apply to F&G. Even then it doesnt matter since CA F&G was infiltrated by anti hunting and fishing persons in the 70s and 80s with the sole intent to stop it.

So you get officers that do what they want, dont have to prove anything, and run amok. If you get cited by F&G and want to fight it you go to a Regional F&G magistrate. Since they are the same people who's kids are now citing your you will lose. Then if you want to fight it it can go to a higher court.

If you watch Wild Justice on NatGeo you will see multiple illegal acts by CA F&G interfering with lawful hunting. One lead officer used bear paws he cut off a vehicle struck bear strapped to his feat. He them found a group of legal hunters and made tracks out in front of thier dogs leading them on a wild goose chase. He confront them later and treats them like criminals since he KNOWS they were going to collect and sell the gaul and makes them rupture it. The same officer also goes into Chinatown and makes illegal search and siezure of private businesses with no warants and using the business owner's fear to his advantage.

How is that legal, and then so proud of it put it on TV?


Question for the lawyer types. Would the F&G need a search warrant, and reasonable cause to examine your ammunition? Wouldn't they need to witness a kill, and recover the bullet to prove it is lead? Is it illegal to have lead ammunition in your possession? Once again, if it is not in plain view, isn't a warrant required? If asked, I think the best course of action is to not answer the question, as to whether you have lead in your possession. More people are hung by their own tongue, than by a rope.

[NVScouter]

California voted to put the burden of firefighting soley on rural or unincorperated persons a few years back. They are taxing only the people in those areas with a special tax and will file against your real property if not paid. This was voted on and most of CA geographicly voted against it but it passed by a fair margin. This is the very definition of being disenfranchised.

Well when LA was burning this summer I didnt see any new legislation preventing those funds from being used in incorperated areas. Lots of good normal people in CA that cant fight this cancer without spending tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees you will never get back. Best case you sue and win so CA and give you an IOU for whatever monies you won.

[leadman]

Winchester has made some tin bulleted 22lr ammo. The range reports were not the best with group sizes 2 to 3 times larger than lead. Still would have been good enough for most hunting.
Zinc works but is light so downrange ballistics are poor.

[mdi]

Instead of taking your ball and going home why don't you and your fellow Californian's try and get this **** changed? I have never seen residents of a state just bend over and take it like residents of California. It is like they have no fight in them whatsoever.

You know not of what you speak...

I fought CA's idiotic rules for 30 years. I joined the NRA, CA Rifle & Pistol Assn., I circulated petitions, I contacted my "representatives" and I voted. I wasn't alone, just one of a few hundred thousands. I'm not a millionaire and can't buy any politicians, and CA is run by Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Sacramento, and as far as the urbanites care, the rest of the state can go to hell (the rural parts of the state are just for vacations). Public opinion is so warped by the scads of false info that it's impossible to get anything "real" done (a few years back in a statewide election, the urban voters passed legislation on how many square feet a chicken needs in a commercial chicken producing facility! Perhaps one in 8 million people have seen/visited a commercial chicken farm.) and voting in CA is a worthless pastime (twice the majority of voters voted down gay marriage initiatives, but less than 1 year after elections popular decision/vote was reversed). True facts have no impact on CA politicians as money, popularity, and possibility of re- election outweigh truth (it has never been proven thast CA buzzards indeed died from lead poisoning, but lead bullets were banned in 1/3 of the state anyway.

A great weight was lifted when I escaped CA, as hunters and gun folk (and rural type people) are outnumbered 5 million to one...

[prs]

Aren't there test strips or such that turn pink if rubbed on lead?

prs

[youngda9]

Just don't hunt there anymore. Let them be run over by wild animals.

[SawmillJack]

Question for the lawyer types. Would the F&G need a search warrant, and reasonable cause to examine your ammunition? Wouldn't they need to witness a kill, and recover the bullet to prove it is lead? Is it illegal to have lead ammunition in your possession? Once again, if it is not in plain view, isn't a warrant required? If asked, I think the best course of action is to not answer the question, as to whether you have lead in your possession. More people are hung by their own tongue, than by a rope.


I have watched the television show about California Fish & Game wardens in their daily duties. From what I have seen on that show NOBODY has any rights except the state. The entire Constitution of the U.S. has ceased to exist in California. I don't live there and I will never (probably) hunt there but it totally ticks me off every time I watch. Actually I had to quit watching and yelling at them.

[Mal Paso]

Question for the lawyer types. Would the F&G need a search warrant, and reasonable cause to examine your ammunition? Wouldn't they need to witness a kill, and recover the bullet to prove it is lead? Is it illegal to have lead ammunition in your possession? Once again, if it is not in plain view, isn't a warrant required? If asked, I think the best course of action is to not answer the question, as to whether you have lead in your possession. More people are hung by their own tongue, than by a rope.

The way the Condor law was written it is illegal to have lead bullets in your possession while hunting.

[tomme boy]

I've thought about making some #4 buck out of zinc for goose hunting. I think it would work good enough and save me a fortune in steel shot.

Some guys here are working with zinc boolit molds. I would look into it if it was me because I RARELY shoot anything but cast.

You can't use zinc for shot to use on waterfowl. It is a Federally mandated law and they have a list of approved shot you can use. If it is not on the list, you can't use it.

[Kull]

Instead of taking your ball and going home why don't you and your fellow Californian's try and get this **** changed? I have never seen residents of a state just bend over and take it like residents of California. It is like they have no fight in them whatsoever.

Check it out. California is a big *** state. Massive differences in culture and attitude between the way north and the way south in general. The population density of LA County is 2k per square mile, the population density of Trinity County is 4 per square mile. The good guys fight, believe it, we are however seriously outnumbered.

[dkf]

Fact is the residents of California got just what they tolerated and obviously did too little. Once it was too late they then just left. And the people from Cali I talk to often have the same "oh well" attitude. Every state has similar issues of far left idiots with far greater population densities than seen in Cali. One thing California residents past and present never run out of is excuses for failure.

In my state alone the two largest left wing cities have a population density of 11,600 and 5,700 people per square mile. If the capital would try to pull even a a small portion of what other states pulled the capital would be marched on and there would be hell to pay.


You can't use zinc for shot to use on waterfowl. It is a Federally mandated law and they have a list of approved shot you can use. If it is not on the list, you can't use it.

Is it because it is too light and does not do a good job of clean kills?

[tomme boy]

Is it because it is too light and does not do a good job of clean kills?

No, it has to go through the Federal agencies to make sure each type of alloy is NON-TOXIC. Everytime a new type of shot comes out, it has to go through the approval of the Federal Gov't before it can be used. Complete BS.

[Kull]

I still think California is one of the most divided states ever. More than any other state I have lived in, and I won't comment or talk about states I haven't lived in like so many tend to do.

Back on topic burden of proof is on DFG. If you talk to the wardens they will tell you that they spend massive amounts of time just watching people in an effort to gain evidence.


If the capital would try to pull even a a small portion of what other states pulled the capital would be marched on and there would be hell to pay.

I'll believe that when I see it.

[JakeBlanton]

Well, tungsten is denser than lead, but I don't think many of us have casting pots that can get to that high of a temperature (6192F). :(

And at $25 or so per pound, you would have to be pretty desperate to even consider using it for bullets.

There are some tungsten alloys that are relatively soft and will deform / expand, but they are still expensive and probably require swagging instead of casting.

Pretty much all the alternatives are expensive.

[dbosman]

Actually, they would have to prove it is lead. You don't have to prove anything.

I expect if you piss "them" off enough, the bullet they test -will- be lead.

[dkf]

I'll believe that when I see it.

We Pro 2A guys go to our state capital at least once a year regardless to let them know we are here and vigilant. The number would grow significantly if/when they try to pull something.


Well, tungsten is denser than lead, but I don't think many of us have casting pots that can get to that high of a temperature (6192F).

And at $25 or so per pound, you would have to be pretty desperate to even consider using it for bullets.

There are some tungsten alloys that are relatively soft and will deform / expand, but they are still expensive and probably require swagging instead of casting.

Pretty much all the alternatives are expensive.

I agree melting point of tungsten is too high. However tungsten powder can be bound together with an epoxy in a mold. But tungsten powder and epoxy are not exactly cheap stuff either.

[capt.hollis]

California, y'all need to split that state down the middle, and take back what's yours. The liberal monster has grown to full size , and y'all let it get that big staring many many years ago back when the hippies started getting into politics, and got voted in. Take a stand , you have 5 yrs to do it.

[Bigslug]

Well, now that we've gotten the POLITICAL diatribe out of the way, how about we get around to answering the TECHNICAL question I asked?[smilie=b:

[reloader28]

No, it has to go through the Federal agencies to make sure each type of alloy is NON-TOXIC. Everytime a new type of shot comes out, it has to go through the approval of the Federal Gov't before it can be used. Complete BS.


Thanks for the heads up.
I guess I didnt actually look into it. I thought it just said non toxic.
I figured zinc was non toxic and thats why they use it for WW.
I know the local game warden and will have to talk to him about it. I aint goose hunted for 2 years anyway and probly wont this year either.

[btroj]

Well, now that we've gotten the POLITICAL diatribe out of the way, how about we get around to answering the TECHNICAL question I asked?[smilie=b:


Tin has too low a density, a bullet would be light enough to give poor downrange ballistics. You might be able to use a mould for a heavy for caliber bullet and get enough bullet weight to do the job.
I am not sure how well tin would handle impact, would it stay intact, fracture, or expand at all?

It would make for some quite expensive shooting. You need enough bullets to sight in and for the hunt. With tin running as expensive as it is at some point it is cheaper to buy jacketed, lead free bullets.

Would tin be more prone to leaving "tinning" in the bore? I don't know.

While it could be done the real question is will it be satisfactory.

Welcome to being the guinea pig.

[mdi]

Fact is the residents of California got just what they tolerated and obviously did too little. Once it was too late they then just left. And the people from Cali I talk to often have the same "oh well" attitude. Every state has similar issues of far left idiots with far greater population densities than seen in Cali. One thing California residents past and present never run out of is excuses for failure.

In my state alone the two largest left wing cities have a population density of 11,600 and 5,700 people per square mile. If the capital would try to pull even a a small portion of what other states pulled the capital would be marched on and there would be hell to pay.



Is it because it is too light and does not do a good job of clean kills?

Sorry, I just think you're misinformed. You seem to think CA gun owners just bend over and take it from the "do-gooder tree hugging, Bambi saving" left. A lot of residents of other state are just as uninformed and pass judgment on CA gun owners and make statements like that. As in my previous post, rural, hunting, shooting types are so out numbered by the urban dwelling, latte sipping, liberals that nothing resembling a reasonable law can be passed, and most, if not all aren't put to a popular vote, just enacted by ignorant politicians! To the Urbanites that vote in the politicians most know nothing about hunting and guns; "wilderness" is the city park and all guns are bad, 'cause the only ones they have seen are used by cops and gang bangers. As for the DFG wardens, I believe they are limited similarly as the Coast Guard; civil rights are not observed, warrants not necessary...

To CA residents that have fought, these types of comments are offensive...

[HNSB]

What's the penalty going to be for using lead?

If it's low enough, I'd just keep on using it.

[Duckiller]

dkf where do you live? So glad you can tell me what is wrong with California when you are either embarassed or ashamed of where you live.

[Kull]

To CA residents that have fought, these types of comments are offensive...

Ah men.


MDI,
How often did you run into firearms owners who sat on the fence?
Or gun owners who that thought a new law controlling firearms, ammo, hunting, or wildlife protection was OK?
It didn't effect them, wan't so bad, a permit was OK.....and so on.

Don't know about mdi but never. Not in this part are California. Even if there all people that fit that description around here, and I'm sure there are, they are probably not gun owners or locals....and they're not going to admit it because they are the minority.

[dkf]

To CA residents that have fought, these types of comments are offensive...

That is fine if CA residents think it offensive. I find it offensive the CA residents can't even take care of things in their own state and therefore it effects everyone else in the entire country. If CA problems would stay in CA I could care less. I would like nothing more than to not have to follow or be concerned with what is happening in CA.

[Mal Paso]

What's the penalty going to be for using lead?

If it's low enough, I'd just keep on using it.

First of all they will take your gun(s).

It's the Department of Fish and Wildlife in California. Says a lot.

Not all Californians agree with Sacramento. Google the "State of Jefferson"

[MUSTANG]

Bigslug:

Checking the Density of metals, it looks like Gold, Silver, Lead, Mercury, Platinum, Tungston and Uranium are out due to Toxcity, cost or availability. That means you'll have to focus on those metals (and/or alloys) that are found in the 7.0 to 9.0 Density Range on the Chart Below.

I am sure that there will be an emerging market for "California Legal" hunting ammunition over the next 5 years, but the cost will be so expensive that many will cease to hunt. I forecast $50.00 to $125.00 per box of 20 rounds. Driving the cost of ammunition beyond the means of the average citizen to afford it is one of the goals of the "Statist" gun banning groups, this in my opinion is just another example of an area selected for implementation of that agenda. For all reading, be warned, this will be coming to an area near you in the future.

As a community (Cast Boolits) we may have to start looking into Swaging Copper projectiles. It is technically feasible, but not with the equipment we are currently using. The idea of Swaging "Sintered" copper is not new, as Corbin has made sintered copper available for some time; but costs are way too high for the wallets of most of us. Swage Presses and Dies that can take scrap copper wire is where I foresee we will have to go eventually, unless we can see a way to knock the State and Federal EPA other Agencies back on their heals with a return to reasonableness where they are "Civil Servants" not "Civil Masters".

Apologize for mixing the technical answer, and the political/voodo science drivers into the discussion, but they have become inseparable because of the actions of those who wish to control the individual and their legitimate pursuits by making those pursuits illegal; or too costly for the average citizen to pursue.

Mustang



85790

[Baron von Trollwhack]

The problem is easily solved. Shoot the hell out of your regular cast boolits for practice at the range.

For hunting shoot babbit metal. Buy a couple pounds of the babbit alloy you favor after review of its cost and properties, including hardness. Save the data, cast enough to assure yourself of accuracy and related.......Then use it to hunt. Carry a copy of the certified composition you bought and on the chance you get checked ......let nature take its course and sue the *astards if neccessary. I've shot 50/50 tin solder, and use tin/copper solder now for lead alloying...and babbit too for alloying. If a 12 yo kid can kill a deer at 15 yards with a 35 pound pull bow, an experienced hunter is in like flint with a babbit bullet.

BvT

[dondiego]

Doesn't babbit contain some lead?

[mdi]

MDI,
How often did you run into firearms owners who sat on the fence?
Or gun owners who that thought a new law controlling firearms, ammo, hunting, or wildlife protection was OK?
It didn't effect them, wan't so bad, a permit was OK.....and so on.

Rarely. And that was in the "urbanite mecca" of Los Angeles. At least the voting age adults that could think for themselves.

[mdi]

That is fine if CA residents think it offensive. I find it offensive the CA residents can't even take care of things in their own state and therefore it effects everyone else in the entire country. If CA problems would stay in CA I could care less. I would like nothing more than to not have to follow or be concerned with what is happening in CA.
Another misinformed poster...

Mt 'pap always said "If ya don't know wat yer talkin' 'bout, keep yer mouth shut!"

[dkf]

Another misinformed poster...

Mt 'pap always said "If ya don't know wat yer talkin' 'bout, keep yer mouth shut!"

You really need to do some research of past history on the subject and whom pioneered some of BS that bled to other states and even affected things on a federal level. Your pap was probably talking to you when he said that, you just could not make the connection. But I am sure you will have more excuses for that as well. Keep in mind after a while you will run out of states to escape to.

[dkf]

Doesn't babbit contain some lead?

Not the expensive Tin based babbit like Grade 1, Grade 3 Grade 11 and etc.;)

[Ted]

Fact is the residents of California....... Blaw, blaw, blaw....

So your saying that America deserved Obama and Obamacare? That the girl was raped because she wore her clothes too tight?

Stop blaming the victim, help us fight it here or expect it to spread.

Remember H. L. Mencken
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.

[dkf]

I do what I can but the residents of CA have more pull within that state than I do. It can be just as frustrating for the outsiders as it can be for some of the residents. Plus there are battles to be fought within the state I reside, on a local level and then the federal level. We all face challenges and have a lot of left in our own states to deal with.

[mdi]

"You really need to do some research of past history on the subject and whom pioneered some of BS that bled to other states and even affected things on a federal level. Your pap was probably talking to you when he said that, you just could not make the connection. But I am sure you will have more excuses for that as well. Keep in mind after a while you will run out of states to escape to."

Once again, you don't know what you're talking about. Sure, CA does a lot of stupid things, but it's the idiots in your state that will follow along like sheeple. Not every anti-gun law originated in CA, look at some of the New England states. CA politicians aren't concerned about what happens in your state and does not "export" any legislation. And as I said my previous posts, non-hunters/anti-gunners outnumber the hunters/shooters by a huge volume, and politicians don't pay any attention to low number voters.

I've never been to Nebraska, don't know anyone who lives there, but let me tell you all about it...

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have been fighting this from day one. The Lead Ban recently passed and signed by Brown is open ended. F&G has 5 years to implement or they also have the option to completely dump the law if it directly affects their funding.

We all know the science behind this law is pure BS, but it is a fact of life now until the country swings back to the right.

Lying is now OK and the First Amendment guarantees that right. (I personally do not believe it gives you the right to outright lie to the American People and especially if you are a public servant.) Look at our President lying virtually everytime he opens his mouth. It is as obvious as the fact that he is a complete *****, however look at all the stupid people who not only voted for him but actually believe everything that comes out of his mouth.

If you talk to people on the street and ask them which Health Care Plan they support ,,, "Obamacare" or the "Affordable Care Act." they will invariably pick one or the other so they think they don't look stupid!

The biggest threat to our society is the "uninformed voter." This is a person who votes but has no idea what he is voting for.. I personally think they should have to answer questions on the issues and Candidates before they could vote on them.

WE live in a society, where by definition, half of the people are below average intelligence. I would submit that a lot of the ones above the cutoff line are not that smart either.

I have put forward in CA that if F&G or the Greenies are really concerned about the health of Condors then why not have hunters that kill Deer not gut the animal in the field OR dump the gutpile into a plastic bag and bring it out along with the deer and dispose of the bag in an approved manner.

This would completely alleviate the possibility of Condors getting lead poisoning from hunters boolits!

Now who in the left community could ever possibly disagree with this solution if they were actually concerned with the health of Condors and not trying to ban hunting?

Then the truth would come out.

As far as people in other states chastising us for not fighting for our rights, you can kiss my ****! Our state is ran by only two counties, LA and Alameda(SF). Both are completely controlled by the left and the unions who have ruined this state.

Unseating them could only be accomplished by mass murder. This could only happen if there was a war fought on American soil which has not happened for 150 years, but not a bad idea.

If you really want to help, then demand that the RNC start funding candidates in CA again. They call me looking for money and I ask how much of my money is going to CA candidates and they tell me "NONE CA is a lost cause and we're not funding it!" They only want to fund political fights in "Battle Ground States" that they lose anyway. Obama won every single Battleground State in the last election. So much for funding losers!

I tell them "FU!!!"

And you're right what happens here does bleed off into other states where liberals run the show.

How come you're letting liberals run YOUR state?

Could it be you got out voted by stupid people just like we do? DUH?

I do get sick of hearing this same yap from people who don't live here but blame us for their woes. If you're not going to help us then STFU!

Randy

[Garyshome]

You could PC them and only carry a few, or carry some of both and only show the legal ones. How many people can they afford to pay to search you all? I would take a chance, but i'll never live in ca.

[Dutchman]

<snipped>
I do get sick of hearing this same yap from people who don't live here but blame us for their woes. If you're not going to help us then STFU!


Very well spoke!

As for the people behind the lead ban.....

You all need to look much deeper into the exact people who champion anti-hunting and lead bans and other anti-gun causes. They all seem to be related. They are virtually all ~leftists~. I don't use the word "liberal" as that is not what they are. The very deepest root of their impetus lies in the dogma of Marxism.

Too many of you guys use words like "wacko" to describe these leftists. They aren't wackos. They are very focused and educated organizers. They play word games to a degree that most conservatives get lost trying to argue against their intellectual gobblygook.

If you start googling the names on this list you'll learn a lot more about the enemy.
http://www.humanesociety.org/about/leadership/

http://www.humanesociety.org/about/leadership/board/hsus_board_directors.html

Jennifer Fearing. State Director of Humane Society---- She was one of those behind the change from Fish & Game to Fish & Wildlife... Why? Because she is a diehard VEGAN. She was heavily involved in the legislative effort (successful) to ban dogs from being used in hunting.
http://www.humanesociety.org/about/leadership/state_directors/jennifer_fearing.html

Fish & Wildlife Commission:
http://www.fgc.ca.gov/public/information/bios.aspx

Fearing has been a REPUBLICAN but I think she was a leftist mole. She sleeps with dogs. She gets up with fleas.
http://www.humanewatch.org/person/jennifer_fearing/

Jennifer Fearing, Humane Society State Director, Pushes Animal Welfare In California
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/13/jennifer-fearing-california-animal-welfare_n_1091350.html

Jennifer Fearing | Vegan Consultant
www.veganconsultant.com/tag/jennifer-fearing/‎
May 21, 2011 - Hello vegan friends, I have exciting news! Over the weekend I had the pleasure of meeting Nathan Runkle the Executive Director of Mercy for ...

Animal Advocate Jennifer Fearing - VegFamily
www.vegfamily.com/news/animal-advocate.htm‎
Apr 20, 2009 - The Magazine for Vegan ... Animal Advocate Jennifer Fearing ... 2, Jennifer Fearing took an 80% pay cut to become the Humane Society's ...

You guys spend some time reading up on these VEGAN organizations. They aren't what you think they are. They are anti-hunting activists. You won't believe how much until you actually do the homework.

https://www.facebook.com/search/str/vegan/pages-named

If you read nothing else I've posted--- read this. It is a most revealing look into Jennifer Fearing and what she does and how she does it. Its frightening.

http://www.humanewatch.org/guest_column_tagging_along_on_an_hsus_lobby_day/

The Animal Liberation Front and Earth Liberation Front love Jennifer Fearing.

知彼知己，百戰不殆；不知彼而知己，一勝一負；不知彼，不知己，每戰必殆

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle."

Sun Tzu - The Art of War

[Super Sneaky Steve]

This thread makes me sad. :-(

[SDGarrick]

Instead of taking your ball and going home why don't you and your fellow Californian's try and get this **** changed? I have never seen residents of a state just bend over and take it like residents of California. It is like they have no fight in them whatsoever.

You don't get it because you've never been a subject there. There are almost no pro-2a friendly politicians around while there are actually large grassroots movements. But in a state of nearly 40,000,000 people, it's tough for a minority to fight these draconian laws, especially when the media labels us as mass murderers.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Doesn't babbit contain some lead? Not neccessarily, try something like 'Babbit metal, WIKI" on your search. BvT

[NVScouter]

Very well said Sir.

May I add that the lead bad was started right after Condor Soft Shell (most nesting sites sit about equal in elevation to smog levels, exposing them to toxins like lead) sudies came out. These studies showed CA was killings its own condors through pollution and was at the top of the media for about two years. Then new studies came out showing condors (majestic word for big garbage eating buzzard) eating a tiny scrap of lead and dying because of big mean hunters!

The media in CA wants all hunting and shooting stopped by any means. Discrediting scientists because thier scientificly backed theory doesnt follow your agenda is nothing new.


I have been fighting this from day one. The Lead Ban recently passed and signed by Brown is open ended. F&G has 5 years to implement or they also have the option to completely dump the law if it directly affects their funding.

We all know the science behind this law is pure BS, but it is a fact of life now until the country swings back to the right.

Lying is now OK and the First Amendment guarantees that right. (I personally do not believe it gives you the right to outright lie to the American People and especially if you are a public servant.) Look at our President lying virtually everytime he opens his mouth. It is as obvious as the fact that he is a complete *****, however look at all the stupid people who not only voted for him but actually believe everything that comes out of his mouth.

If you talk to people on the street and ask them which Health Care Plan they support ,,, "Obamacare" or the "Affordable Care Act." they will invariably pick one or the other so they think they don't look stupid!

The biggest threat to our society is the "uninformed voter." This is a person who votes but has no idea what he is voting for.. I personally think they should have to answer questions on the issues and Candidates before they could vote on them.

WE live in a society, where by definition, half of the people are below average intelligence. I would submit that a lot of the ones above the cutoff line are not that smart either.

I have put forward in CA that if F&G or the Greenies are really concerned about the health of Condors then why not have hunters that kill Deer not gut the animal in the field OR dump the gutpile into a plastic bag and bring it out along with the deer and dispose of the bag in an approved manner.

This would completely alleviate the possibility of Condors getting lead poisoning from hunters boolits!

Now who in the left community could ever possibly disagree with this solution if they were actually concerned with the health of Condors and not trying to ban hunting?

Then the truth would come out.

As far as people in other states chastising us for not fighting for our rights, you can kiss my ****! Our state is ran by only two counties, LA and Alameda(SF). Both are completely controlled by the left and the unions who have ruined this state.

Unseating them could only be accomplished by mass murder. This could only happen if there was a war fought on American soil which has not happened for 150 years, but not a bad idea.

If you really want to help, then demand that the RNC start funding candidates in CA again. They call me looking for money and I ask how much of my money is going to CA candidates and they tell me "NONE CA is a lost cause and we're not funding it!" They only want to fund political fights in "Battle Ground States" that they lose anyway. Obama won every single Battleground State in the last election. So much for funding losers!

I tell them "FU!!!"

And you're right what happens here does bleed off into other states where liberals run the show.

How come you're letting liberals run YOUR state?

Could it be you got out voted by stupid people just like we do? DUH?

I do get sick of hearing this same yap from people who don't live here but blame us for their woes. If you're not going to help us then STFU!

Randy

[plmitch]

Wow, never dull here in the hen house.

[Mal Paso]

Wow, never dull here in the hen house.

I should hope not!

Study this week says Condor Lead Level is UP. Hunting here is a small fraction of what it used to be. DOPING?

[HNSB]

I am confused.
Will lead still be allowed for airport shootings?

[JakeBlanton]

I should hope not!

Study this week says Condor Lead Level is UP. Hunting here is a small fraction of what it used to be. DOPING?

As they say, "follow the money". The California Condor conservation project has cost $35M. Someone is making money off of this and if the condors recovered, they would not be making any more money off of it.

[mdi]

I read an article a while back on the Condor subject. It said the CA buzzards are dying off "naturally", that they are becoming extinct not by being poisoned by hunters, but by "natural selection", that they are too "fragile" and any small change in their environment had very damaging effects on their survival. Man's encroachment on their territory is much more damaging to their survival, and their feeding areas are shrinking. Sounded plausible to me...

[dondiego]

Wow, never dull here in the hen house.

Hen house? This is the Rooster Coop!

[engineer401]

For those who don't believe liberal meccas don't export their issues have never dealt with those who move into my peaceful rural area from the overpriced and overpopulated areas then demand we change our ways to suit what they are used to. They move here from other states and other parts of the state and demand we change. That is reprehensible. Further, we deal with legislative stupidity from western WA. OR deals with stupid from the Portland/Salem area. As stated in this thread many of them want our area to be their playground, nothing more. They also push the social programs resulting in the mayhem associated with such programs. I have lived in all west coast states and can safely say they all have their pot-smoking stupidity that serves only to erode our rights and security. The lead ammunition argument is a much larger than the 2nd Amendment. They shamelessly tax us, attempt to infringe upon our ability to defend ourselves, restrict how we manage our property, tell us how to manage our health and ostracize us when we disagree with them. These are the things that represent our freedoms the most. It was never only about the "environment". It is about control. Simply that. They are coming at us from all directions.

[dkf]

I can USPS you guys some Turkey Buzzards from the local river. Lead don't bother them, the river has so many lost lead fishing lures in it they are immune to it. I doubt most will tell the the difference.

[JakeBlanton]

I read an article a while back on the Condor subject. It said the CA buzzards are dying off "naturally", that they are becoming extinct not by being poisoned by hunters, but by "natural selection", that they are too "fragile" and any small change in their environment had very damaging effects on their survival. Man's encroachment on their territory is much more damaging to their survival, and their feeding areas are shrinking. Sounded plausible to me...

From what I've read, they relied on the size of Pleistocene megafauna (or to be precise, the size of their corpses). As this food source disappeared, the California Condor was thus on the road to extinction also. I suspect that if it hadn't been for man's introduction of larger species (horses and cattle) into the area, the condors would have already died off.

I wonder how many armadillo road kills per day it would take to feed a California Condor.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dutch I did read the article by Dannielle Romeo, and it is just another iteration of how the left will do or say anything to get their way.

It is hard for me to believe that any sane person can't see thru this BS, but it just goes to show you how many stupid people there are in this society.

People who think they know what's best for the entire society are by definition megalomaniacs.
The founders gave us the 2nd Amendment to fight them.

However people with guns can only do so much. Obviously the people who are organized are gaining power, and our main obstacle is complacency, and pure laziness.

Randy