Canceled my subscription to Shooting Times and Guns and Ammo

[DLCTEX]

My two year subscription to Shooting Times was due to expire in January and about a month ago my bank statement showed they had hit me for a one year renewal at $19.98. This was a total surprise and I surmise that I had paid for the original subscription with my debit card and they must have retained the number. I complained to my bank and they offered to refund my account, but there would be a $10 charge for a stop payment. I chose to email Shooting Times and state my outrage at the unauthorized charge and the retention of my card info. I told them I was also contemplating canceling my subscription to Guns and Ammo which they also publish. I received a quick reply they would consider it, then about 10 days later they refunded $22.83 and emailed that they had canceled both subscriptions. I'm done with their publishing company.

[HeavyMetal]

I've seen this before: you get a subscription, or any thing else on an annual basis, and theres a box that needs checked if you don't want them to auto renew when your times up.

Many, like myself, never really look for this little hook and then get a surprise a year or so later!

It's perfectly legal, cause your supposed to read everything before you sign up, but it shouldn't be!

I take it you didn't really want to cancel? and some moron at the publishing company either wants to play games or can't hear correctly!

I've had issues with ST, got a subscription and then found out it hit the store shelf 3 weeks before I got it in the mail! When I complained I was told it was out of thier hands as the mailing was handled by a third party.

I didn't renew and after Skeeter passed ST really never had anything I wanted to read in it with few exceptions and those I purchase over the counter as I see them.

As for G&A? I can remember the last time I actually looked at that rag!

In all honesty when I was subscribing to gun mags, I preffered handloader and gun world back when Dean Grinnell was up and writing.

Kept him and Skeeter around monthly sure do wish they had that style writer around today.

Back to the auto rennew issue: every web site you want to view seems to want to do this if it requires payment to join!

Another reason I like this site!

This little hook thing needs to go the way of the dinosaur as well as the charge to use your debit card! Call or write your Senator I think this is a better project than Obummer care was and would save us more money in the long run!

[bhn22]

At the risk of dating myself, magazines aren't what they were in the old days. I understand that Elmer and Skeeter are gone now, but can't the at least find interesting writers anymore?

[oldgeezershooter]

It's like all of these free trial offers, if you accept one you must read the fine print.
After the initial trial they will keep sending you **** and take out payment unless you opt out.

[C.F.Plinker]

I just looked at the last renewal notice I got from ST. One year was $12.97, two years was $20.97. The payment options are Payment Enclosed, Bill me, Charge my credit card with more boxes for AMEX, Discover, Master Card, and VISA. No mention of automatic renewal.

I don't like having my credit card, or more especially, my bank account and routing numbers floating around the internet, so I pay by check whenever possible. If I decide to stop taking a magazine I don't have to do anything. They will stop sending them to me when the subscription runs out. The publishers always give me plenty of notice that the subscription is going to expire so I can renew if I want to.

[HeavyMetal]

The auto renew box is only if you subscribe on line!

[perotter]

At the risk of dating myself, magazines aren't what they were in the old days. I understand that Elmer and Skeeter are gone now, but can't the at least find interesting writers anymore?

I think finding interesting writers today would be very hard. Most people who like to write go to school for it and there they flunk out if they wrote in an interesting manner. They are trained to write how some multinational corporation or government agency will direct them to write propaganda. Zero colorful writing isn't allowed. Can't let something slip out. They come out thinking that the proper way to write.

For example.

Sherline , the maker of small lathes and mills, was requested by Sears to rewrite his manuals more 'professionally'. When he asked why, they replied that they were to colorful( guy even will use curse words, etc in them). He than asked if their customers ever called for clarification about his machine manuals. Sears said never. He then asked if customers ever called about others manuals. Sears replied that they got calls for everyone else machines. He told Sears that he wasn't going to rewrite his and maybe they should theirs like his.

[w5pv]

To avoid problems like this,I have a separate account and debit card for that account just to do online business,I put just enough in it to cover what I need to do.If they come back later or try some hanky panky the money won;t be in the account.I guess they could score if the timing and the stars were all aligned and I was trying to do some other business.

[C.F.Plinker]

The auto renew box is only if you subscribe on line!

SSSHHHHH They might hear you and hide it on the paper form also. :smile:

[gandydancer]

I would renew ST if they would put some of the old writers articles back in each month.I know the old timers are all gone now.but their writing is as good today as it was back then. and better then what's out there today.

PS. Any one know what happen to JIM from Floyd VA?

[codgerville@zianet.com]

I don't subscribe to any of them, I think the gun rags have really gone downhill compared to what they were. I remember Skeeter, Bill Jordan, Charles Askins, Elmer Keith, Warren Page, Jack O'Connor, and others who all wrote articles for the common man. Not so now. Too many articles about their high dollar guns that the working guy can't afford.

[dbosman]

At the risk of dating myself, magazines aren't what they were in the old days. I understand that Elmer and Skeeter are gone now, but can't the at least find interesting writers anymore?

They could find good writers, but negative opinions in print tends to draw law suits. So, the publishers stick to safe topics and milk that for as long as they can. When they can't - another publication goes missing.

As for why the mags keep reviewing high end stuff instead of ordinary - manufacturers of ordinary can't afford to pay for the publicity any more.

[Charley]

Don't subscribe to any shooting pubs, except American Rifleman, and TSRA News, because they are part of membership in organizations. G&A and ST are snoozers, pure and simple. I do sometimes check out Rifle and Handloader on the news stand, and buy it if there is something of interest in it. The rest of the firearms publishing market is ****, as far as I am concerned.

[Smoke4320]

That and the fact of when in the last several years has one of the major magazines actually said a product was bad and to avoid it ?
Everything they test is just wonderful ..you have to get this .. Ad dollars do all the talking

[theperfessor]

As soon as I found this site I gave up reading gun comic books.

[Reg]

As soon as I found this site I gave up reading gun comic books.

And once again, theperfessor is spot on.

There IS nothing else out there as far good usable information, access to like minded and informed people and up to the date information by those who have not been influenced by those who offer a new rifle or a free hunting trip somewhere.
Next year when the fund raiser starts that keeps this site open, I for one will not listen to any of the bellyaching or nonsense that has risen in the past. I will just do my usual thing and see how quick I can send in a few bux.

[captaint]

Years ago, I found myself saying, after reading articles in ST and G&A, "hell, I could have written that !!"
And I not a very good writer.... Year after year, same ol stuff. Only American Rifleman any more. Mike

[wantoutofca]

I started using Bank of Americas one time use cards. I just get a number, get charged, and get a good laugh when an unauthorized payment is attempted. I'm easily entertained though.

[LeftyDon]

I think finding interesting writers today would be very hard. Most people who like to write go to school for it and there they flunk out if they wrote in an interesting manner. They are trained to write how some multinational corporation or government agency will direct them to write propaganda. Zero colorful writing isn't allowed. Can't let something slip out. They come out thinking that the proper way to write.

For example.

Sherline , the maker of small lathes and mills, was requested by Sears to rewrite his manuals more 'professionally'. When he asked why, they replied that they were to colorful( guy even will use curse words, etc in them). He than asked if their customers ever called for clarification about his machine manuals. Sears said never. He then asked if customers ever called about others manuals. Sears replied that they got calls for everyone else machines. He told Sears that he wasn't going to rewrite his and maybe they should theirs like his.

Many years ago I was working as an electronic tech and needed to repair a medical sample changer machine that was *****. Got reading the troubleshooting section of the manual and got to the final step that read "If you reach this point, take a piece of chalk and draw a pentagram on the floor and then place the machine over it".

[TXGunNut]

Years ago, I found myself saying, after reading articles in ST and G&A, "hell, I could have written that !!"
And I not a very good writer.... Year after year, same ol stuff. Only American Rifleman any more. Mike

Well put, feel the same way myself. Haven't seen the need to pay to have printed advertising sent to my POB in quite some time. I suspect well over 30% of today's gun rags' space is devoted to advertising, seems like 50%. I remember subscribing to ST for the first time because they had an awesome photographer. Can't recall his name but the detail, composition, color and lighting were awesome. He died soon after my first renewal and I pretty much lost interest after that. If something worthwhile comes out AR will do a story on it or I'll read about it online.

[Artful]

PS. Any one know what happen to JIM from Floyd VA?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?215299-Jim-from-Floyd-Va




Taz,
I spoke to him not too long ago. He is doing well back in the woods. No problems that
I know of.

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

[sparky45]

I just looked at the last renewal notice I got from ST. One year was $12.97, two years was $20.97. The payment options are Payment Enclosed, Bill me, Charge my credit card with more boxes for AMEX, Discover, Master Card, and VISA. No mention of automatic renewal.

I don't like having my credit card, or more especially, my bank account and routing numbers floating around the internet, so I pay by check whenever possible. If I decide to stop taking a magazine I don't have to do anything. They will stop sending them to me when the subscription runs out. The publishers always give me plenty of notice that the subscription is going to expire so I can renew if I want to.

I don't know about your checks, but EVERY check I write has the account # and the routeing # at the bottom left hand side of the check. That's just the way they are made.

[Garyshome]

Too much free stuff on the internet to get any mags.

[jcwit]

I remember the old Shooting Times, Guns & Ammo, Mother Earth News "back in the 60's", Popular Science, Popular Mechanics, the list goes on and on, I even remember the old Boys Life, and Children's Digest from my early youth in the 50's. These were all good mags, with much good info on how to do things, times have changed and this concept no longer seems to thrive, most everything is what to buy and/or spend your money on.

Oh well, it is what it is, and they say no one can go home to the former life.

How's the old saying go? Idle hands are the devils playground?

[frkelly74]

They are all catalogs that they want you to pay to read. I cancelled both Shooting times and Field and Stream and maybe Outdoor Life too, when they all had a two page spread by Al Gore on saving the earth that I thought made no sense at all. I told them why and got no intelligible answers. I remember sitting in the barber shop with my dads dollar waiting for my turn and discovering Field and Stream and outdoor writing and thought there were wonderful writers who wrote about wonderful adventures. Back when things used to be the way they should have stayed.

[WILCO]

my bank statement showed they had hit me for a.......

Just wait until obamacare starts hitting you for their bills. There's a reason why they want your bank account numbers, and it isn't to feed the identity thieves.

[cbrick]

Not a one of the gun rags write a single word that might upset any current or possible future advertisers. If any given topic has the slightest thing negative about it the gun rags are the last place you will learn of it. Even Handloader has turned mostly advertisement and less and less real content.

I cancelled Shooting Times 20 years or more ago when they started running anti-handgun for self defense ads promoting shotguns as the only sensible home defense. I get the Rifleman now and never even bother to check out the other rags on the rack in the store. They are all pretty much the same anymore, if it isn't black, shoot 600 rounds a minute and have hundreds of dollars of junk hanging from it it isn't even a real gun. None of them are worth the paper they are printed on. It's real shame too but it is what it is.

Rick

[Junior1942]

*Shooting Times* really POed me this month. Their new shooting editor thinks an AR rifle is sexier than beautiful women. Not only that, the new rifle's new 6.8mm caliber is the best hog cartridge ever. A look at the article's ballistic table shows the new cartridge's ballistics to be a little lower than those of an older cartridge--the 7.62x39 Russian. The new editor can sleep with his high-$ AR if he wants, but I believe I'll keep my low-$ SKS behind the front door and ready for use against bad guys and boar hogs.

[daniel lawecki]

I'll not renew to Shooting Times or Handloader I find reading these post more interesting. The Hanloader, Hunter and Rifleman I get on line.

[DanWalker]

Printed media is gonna go the way of the horse and buggy. I'm amazed it has lasted for as long as it has. The information floodgates have opened. We're no longer dependent upon gunscribes to disseminate information. You can spend an evening reading THIS website and learn more than you can, reading gun rags for a month. They must kowtow to advertisers and editors. We have a free flow of ideas and knowledge, unimpeeded by the all consuming need to make money off of it. I miss reading tales of adventure in far flung places like I did when I was a kid. Although, after having visited a few of these places I'm of the opinion that there was more than a bit of Journalistic license taken by the authors of said tales of derring do. We have a VAST treasure trove of knowledge and experience RIGHT HERE, and I am profoundly grateful for it.

[Artful]

*Shooting Times* really POed me this month. Their new shooting editor thinks an AR rifle is sexier than beautiful women. Not only that, the new rifle's new 6.8mm caliber is the best hog cartridge ever. A look at the article's ballistic table shows the new cartridge's ballistics to be a little lower than those of an older cartridge--the 7.62x39 Russian. The new editor can sleep with his high-$ AR if he wants, but I believe I'll keep my low-$ SKS behind the front door and ready for use against bad guys and boar hogs.

You might want to recheck those prices - I was in Cabella's and lowly SKS's are not a low $ rifle anymore.

[marlin39a]

A friend of mine subscribes to them. he offers them to me to read, but I never find them worth the time. Nothing to see. He also gets "Guns". Just a Clint Smith rag with John Barsness putting in pictures of his wife every issue. Heck, I walk by them all on the newsstand these days. Cooking magazines at least have something interesting.

[10x]

As soon as I found this site I gave up reading gun comic books.

Not so much comic books as 68 page adds.
I still get Rifle and Hand loader - those magazines go through cycles of really good content and eye candy fluff.
Kudos to Mike Venturino who manages to write interesting, informative, and relative articles with a personal perspective.

Jack O'Connor was one of the best hunting and gun writers I have ever found. Mike is a close second.

I do not miss the John Amber "Guns as art" type articles that would always have a a selection of guns I could never afford to own, and if I did, would not shoot....
But sometimes it is what ever floats your boat....

[oldred]

Fellas I quit reading those magazines when they quit writing articles several years ago, that of course was when the writers already mentioned had passed on. It seems everyone so far sees a problem with the way the "new" magazines are done but the real problem has yet to be mentioned, there are few to NO real articles anymore there are only long winded advertisements thinly disguised as articles that hype a certain gun or product! It's all too obvious that these so-called writers are either directed by the publisher to hype a sponsor's merchandise or they are payed by the sponsor or both! There are no objective articles anymore and it's very hard to find any writer that's critical of anything these days, they are experts at glossing over product flaws. Occasionally there will be something interesting about a new wildcat or a story about historical guns/equipment but these have become abbreviated and are crowed out by the long winded ads, and that's what most of them are -just ads!

:EDIT: 10X, you and I must have been typing at the same time and I see you beat me to it on mentioning the long-winded ads!

[Hardcast416taylor]

I think all of us old timers remember how thick any gun magazine was back in the `50`s, `60`s and even into the `70`s. Since then they have gotten thinner, re-wrote many articles and added a number of ad pages in the back or through out the mag. I complained the 2nd month the Rifleman ran sex aid product ads and other ads not having anything to do with the shooting world. The answer I got back was they would look into my complaint, the ads are still there only there are more than ever. If I let a subscription lapse I start getting mailings wanting me to re-up at a lower rate than normal. The last time I got an G&A mailing it was for $7.95 for a year. ST did about the same thing except theirs was a $8.00 offer for a year. My kids signed me up for these mags and Guns for a fathers day gift. I`ll let them run out and ask the kids not to re-up me on them again. Rifle and Handloader used to be a favorite of mine. I`m starting to think about dropping them also due to the drought of decent articles they print that are different than the same old bilge. My biggest complaint about ANY gun magazine now printed is they are ALL trying to out print a competitor on articles of the AR platform rifle, I really don`t like that weapon.Robert

[10x]

I have gun magazines dating back to the early 1950s. Much of the content of the current crop of gun magazines has been recycled many times.
There is very little written that is new about the 30-30 or the 308 or the 30/06, or an other cartridge that is ten plus years old.

The 7.62 x39 is a great cartridge, yet gun writers seem to ignore it in favor of wildcats that produce similar velocities with similar bullets.
Introduction of a "new powder" always interests me, but then I discover it usually does the same as an older powder with any benefit being that it is "new".

But gun writers earn a living telling us about the 300 whisper, or the 300 black out or the 300 Savage and tell us that it is the "best cartridge/powder/bullet combination ever.
But at the target whether it is paper or a game animal it is ultimately the 30 caliber bullet that does the job.

[DLCTEX]

I opened yesterday's mail today and had a check from Guns and Ammo (Intermedia Outdoors, Inc.)for $15. Guess it's what is left from my Guns and Ammo subscription. Friday I got a Shooting times magazine in the mail. I'll do my gun related reading here, that way it will be much more informative.

[Tonto]

You might be surprised at how many libraries carry these publications, you don't get them early but the price is right. The Anoka Public Library here carries both of these plus Field and Stream, Outdoor Life and a few others. I go every couple of weeks and get a ton of reading material, even Fur Fish & Game.

[Char-Gar]

Gun writers and gun magazines are whores of their advertisers. They get used for money. This was not always the case, but it is now.

I have not bought a pulp magazine is some years now. They offend my sense of integrity. I don't patronize rental women and I don't patronize rental gun writers.

[TXGunNut]

Gun writers and gun magazines are whores of their advertisers. They get used for money. This was not always the case, but it is now.

I have not bought a pulp magazine is some years now. They offend my sense of integrity. I don't patronize rental women and I don't patronize rental gun writers.

I got in trouble for making a similar statement over on TFL a few years back, even called out one writer by name. Didn't go over well, seems the site is owned by a gun rag company.[smilie=b: Oh well. I stand by my statement, most gunwriters I know would probably agree with me in private.
It's not that they're not good writers, it's the power of the advertising dollar.

[Char-Gar]

I got in trouble for making a similar statement over on TFL a few years back, even called out one writer by name. Didn't go over well, seems the site is owned by a gun rag company.[smilie=b: Oh well. I stand by my statement, most gunwriters I know would probably agree with me in private.
It's not that they're not good writers, it's the power of the advertising dollar.

It is OK..it seems like I have been in trouble over one thing or another all of my life. My Grandfather told me:
"Son, if you don't want to make waves, don't ever say nothing, don't ever do nothing and don't ever be nothing".

[Randy C]

I get 4 of there mag's I like to have something to read around the house and I try to support the writer's good or bad.

[bob208]

i stopped reading both 20 years ago. they were just repeating the same thing. is the .357 better then the 9mm? or does the new wopper mag. really skin the deer when it hits them? then a year latter . does the new wopper short mag. do better then anything else ?

i saw the trend with the magazines becoming catalogs with hot rod in the 80's. they went from how to articles to where to send it or where to buy it.

i do get backwoodsman. it is till a good read and does not repeat the same thing over and over.

[jcwit]

Plus 1 on the Backwoodsman.

[Lance Boyle]

funny how we have a pretty darned good consensus here on current magazines.

my thoughts are they are not what they used to be; fluff articles on the newest products with no criticisms. A dearth of information unless you were wondering what's new on the market.

I like basic hunting guns and I like black plastic shooting play toys too. No heartburn there. There isn't much in the shooting world that totally escapes my interest. I generally like older cartridges and don't see the dire need for anymore, I know that's counter productive to development, but geeze for deer you got pretty much it all, .250 savage up to .338 win mag. If you can't find something in there that fills the bill you have issues. Some cartridges I think could use a modest rewrite like the .300 win mag I think could have been better beltless. I understand why they don't do redo's generally so as to ensure they're not mistaken for each other.

Another thing is I would hazard to say the folks here are generally in the top 3% of gun guys in knowledge. As such there isn't a heck of lot in the magazines that wouldn't be a watered down rehash of something you've learned or read years ago. All of those rags are interesting to 15-25 year old young men who haven't developed their own knowledge base yet. I had a epiphany in my early college years when i used to save all my outdoor life and field and stream magazines in card board boxes in my closet. I got a September issue of Outdoor Life and was reading the articles and had a de ja vu moment, flipped through the articles and thought back to the black bear facial shot on the cover. I could have sworn I was reading an issue that I read a couple years previously. I checked the date, nope current issue. I went to the closet and scattered the 4 years worth of issues on my floor. Sure enough 3 out of the 4 issues from September had nearly the same photo on them and similar articles. No they weren't the same exact photos but some of them could have been from the same roll of film. Almost could be said on the content. That's when i figured I really don't need to subscribe to them anymore, I'm not really getting much new there. At least with the field sport type magazines, they'd talk about actually hunting and camping, at least they did then. The gun rags just push the latest products and cartridges. It's actually surprising when you do get a blurb on reloading XYZ cartridge. Am Rifleman had a very short blurb on cast bullets this month. Nothing like they had in the 1970's Am riflemen mags.

I wonder what would happen if one of our more prosaic members here wrote a full blown casting article on shooting the .303 with cast or something like that and sent it in. I wouldn't expect even a perfectly written article like that to make print as the writer isn't in the clique. Didn't we have a member do something like that only to find his article and data rewritten with another author with no credit given?

Sigh, oh well, that's why I lurk here and about 4-7 other sites weekly.

[Char-Gar]

Lance et al...

I have very mixed emotions about gun magazines vis-a-vi internet boards like this.

Gun magazine writers do cater to the advertisers, but the magazine also has an editor, who sees that no dangerous and totally foolish stuff gets put into print, which will damage the reputation and circulation of the magazine and hence the revenue it produces.

Internet sites such as this have, no editors and some of the stuff posted is off the wall stupid, dangerous and often the product of various personality disorders.

There is good solid stuff posted as well, but the new person really doesn't have the knowledge base to separate the good from the utterly useless and dangerous.

The best way forward with a new person, now as then, is to have a mentor/experienced friend close at hand to guide them through the early steps. I realize this is not possible in all cases, so a good loading manual would be the next best option.

[Junior1942]

You might want to recheck those prices - I was in Cabella's and lowly SKS's are not a low $ rifle anymore.The new AR rifle I mentioned from the article cost $2649.00. My SKS cost $159.95.

[rattletrap1970]

I don't subscribe to anything but the American Rifleman (which in my opinion has too many Ads) and Cable Internet (only). I do not watch TV, I do not listen to the Radio, I do not Read the paper. I pay no attention to Ads, the only time I step foot in a store of any kind if for essentials, everything else I buy online. I don't play online games of any kind.

[jaysouth]

I would renew ST if they would put some of the old writers articles back in each month.I know the old timers are all gone now.but their writing is as good today as it was back then. and better then what's out there today.

PS. Any one know what happen to JIM from Floyd VA?


Coons got him!

[Hickory]

PS. Any one know what happen to JIM from Floyd VA?
Jim's wife is ill, I don't fault him one little bit spending time with her while she is sick.

[Artful]

The new AR rifle I mentioned from the article cost $2649.00. My SKS cost $159.95.

I paid less than that for my SKS but they were asking 3+ times what you paid.

[Char-Gar]

If any of you have not discovered The Fouling Shot, which is the monthly journal of the Cast Bullet Association you should take a look at it. It is all about cast bullets and the shooting thereof. The magazine is dependent on submissions of it's members and it is not advertiser driven. Nobody makes any money from the magazine, it is just a product of the love of the craft. There are many short helpful hints and longer substantive articles by heavy weights like Ed Harris and others.

[texassako]

The magazines are so lacking these days I can usually flip through them and read the single interesting article while in the store. Sometimes the digital version is worth it if they pass along the saving. I recently signed up for the digital version of Handloader, Rifle, and Successful Hunter for $20 while deciding whether to renew the print version of Handloader. 3 for the price of 1.

[Lance Boyle]

Lance et al...

I have very mixed emotions about gun magazines vis-a-vi internet boards like this.

Gun magazine writers do cater to the advertisers, but the magazine also has an editor, who sees that no dangerous and totally foolish stuff gets put into print, which will damage the reputation and circulation of the magazine and hence the revenue it produces.

Internet sites such as this have, no editors and some of the stuff posted is off the wall stupid, dangerous and often the product of various personality disorders.

There is good solid stuff posted as well, but the new person really doesn't have the knowledge base to separate the good from the utterly useless and dangerous.

The best way forward with a new person, now as then, is to have a mentor/experienced friend close at hand to guide them through the early steps. I realize this is not possible in all cases, so a good loading manual would be the next best option.

Char,

You make a great point. I see more off the wall reloading advice given out on another board. It seems obvious that the poster only learned within the last year and is merely repeating what he just learned. That isn't totally bad but he probably should state he had the same question 8 months ago, and the answer he got was XYX and post a link. Instead they kind of put themselves out as a reliable source.

One place even has a mod that gives precision rifle reloading advice but the guy's technique is clearly the high volume, mixed case, smoosh every piece of brass with the die to cam over on the shell holder, unweighed drops ball powder. He poopoos the opposite, sorting brass, fitting the brass to the chamber, stick powder usage because they take too much time to weigh individually. Just a different outlook and a lesser expectation of precision but he should probably admit that. A newb won't have enough experience to know the difference in "precision" for a M4 type carbine shooting pie plates versus trying to shoot groups at 400 yards or better.

Some people just get stuck in their own outlook, hmmm I better do a self check and make sure it isn't me. [grin]

[jmort]

"I recently signed up for the digital version of Handloader, Rifle, and Successful Hunter for $20 while deciding whether to renew the print version of Handloader. 3 for the price of 1."

That is the only worthwhile reading out there. Really like Brian Pearce. Great deal. Also get load Data as well.