Making cartridges from blanks.

[mikeym1a]

Earlier this year when ammo and components were terribly scarce, and expensive, I looked for alternate sources. One of the things I found were some Pakistani Ordance Factory 7.62X51 blanks. These are full length blanks measuring ~68mm in length. They are crimped into a bullet shape at the end. I tried fire forming in one of my rifles, and that didn't work. They simply split almost to the shoulder. So after reading here about such things, I decided to cut off the ends, dump the powder, and use them for a single shot, as they are berdan primed. I got a mini-chop saw, and proceeded to cut off the ends.

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I marked the case, and marked where the shoulder should be to make the cut.

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Then I proceeded to cut off the ends, and dump the powder. Shown is the finished product.

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Since this is longish, I'll break it up a bit. :-P

[mikeym1a]

Since the initial fire forming resulted in split cases, and someone had said that the cases weren't annealed, I decided to do that. Now, since there was a live primer in the case, and I wanted to utilize same, I made a heat sink (sync?) to keep the base from getting too hot, and setting off the primer. After the annealing is complete, I dip the mouth of the case into a pan of cold water to speed its cooling.

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The heat sink is aluminum wire that I had scavanged, and simply looped tightly around the base of the case to soak up the excess heat. And it does get hot. About every 5th case, I have to dip the heat sink in the water to cool it off. After heat treating, the cases exhibit the effects of the annealing.

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[mikeym1a]

Once this is complete, I neck sized the cases. In this case, I used the standard 8mm sizer. With the neck opened that much, the boolits I prepared for my Mod. 88 GEW are a slip fit into the neck, and I then use a Lee collet die, with the sizer/primer pin removed, to tighten the neck around the PP boolit. This particular barrel is a czech made replacement barrel, and had the dimensions of .308/.318. The boolit is from a mold by JTKnives, and weighs ~160 with the patch on. It is sized .309 and wrapped in 16lb rag paper. It dried to .321, and was lubed with whites xlox, and run through a .319 sizing die. (Had to make that die. Took a Lee .314, and with a split rod and emory paper, I slowly opened it up until I got to .319.)
Once I got the neck to take these boolits as a tight slip fit, I charged the case with 29gr of 4198, and slipped in the boolit, and then used the Lee collet die to tighten the neck. Here is the finished cartridges with one of the original blanks.

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Once I fire these off, I have three options; throw the cases away (berdan primed), find berdan primers, or, convert them to boxers. I've tried drilling out the primer pocket and using a small rifle primer. Some fired, other did not. Primer pocket depth must be different. So, after reading about some people using a ball bearing to tighten the primer pocket mouth, (They said it worked, but, I wasn't sure about that.) I made a anvil, onto which I seated the empty case, and using a punch, I made a series of upsets around the case mouth, to tight up the case mouth. Then I took and ran them through my Lyman primer pocket swager. Both felt like I was removing the crimp from military cases. When I seated the new LRP, I did feel what seemed to be normal resistance.

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[mikeym1a]

And why did I do this? To see if I could. And I did. I am quite pleased with myself. With these blanks, I can make 8X57, 7.65X54, 7X57, or .308, or any cartridge shorter than 57mm, with the .474 head. Due to the crimp, the longest I could get out of the case would be 61mm. And, I have found that they shorten when you expand the case mouth. Besides, it seemed a good idea at the time, and I ended up buying around 1200 of these. They were selling at the beginning at $30.00/200. Last time I got any, they were up to $50.00/200. It seemed a good idea at the time, and I am slowly working my way through them. I used up about 100 of them so far. It has been interesting. And, it works. :D

[dbosman]

Most of us would never go to that much work for cases, but I am delighted that someone did.
Thank you for posting, and specifically posting with pictures.

I have to take back some of the enthusiasm. After reading uscra112's question I reread the post and saw that you are cutting open live rounds.
Please stop that.
Lives are harder to come by than primers and case.

[uscra112]

Please tell me that you are not sawing the ends off of live ammunition. :shock: :shock: :shock:

[dbosman]

Please tell me that you are not sawing the ends off of live ammunition. :shock: :shock: :shock:

Yes, he is. I missed that part the first time through.

decided to cut off the ends, dump the powder

[ShooterAZ]

A risk of life & maybe a limb or an eye. Besides, I would not waste my time with Pakistani or Indian (India) anything. Who knows what those guys put in blanks...black powder for all you know.

[RogerWatsonfromIdaho]

I thought you would use the powder. It is probably a fast burn rate pistol powder, so do not use it in a rifle cartridge under a j-word bullet. If you use it in a pistol cartridge with cast bullets, then start very low and work up. It would be safer to NOT use a powder of unknown burn rate.

[RogerWatsonfromIdaho]

Did you trim these cases to the correct length before seating the bullet? I do not read the word trim in your posts.

[Shiloh]

Please tell me that you are not sawing the ends off of live ammunition. :shock: :shock: :shock:

He is.

A great post though. Very informative. I like the aluminum wire heat sink. I have used copper wire for a heat sink when annealing.

Shiloh

[RogerWatsonfromIdaho]

"So, after reading about some people using a ball bearing to tighten the primer pocket mouth,..."
"I made a anvil, onto which I seated the empty case, and using a punch, I made a series of upsets around the case mouth, to tight up the case mouth."

Do you mean upsets around the primer pocket?
The photo shows punch marks around the primer pocket.


"Then I took and ran them through my Lyman primer pocket swager. Both felt like I was removing the crimp from military cases. When I seated the new LRP, I did feel what seemed to be normal resistance."

I suggest that you fire the rifle remotely with this ammunition.
I wonder if the primer pockets will seal properly and keep the powder gas from leaking.

[jhalcott]

I tried this along time ago (Using blank ammo for real cartridges) and found out that the brass is quite soft. It MIGHT work for very low pressure loads, but I'd be afraid of it in mid to high pressure rounds. I drilled the case from the inside to remove the Berdan anvil. I PRYED open the mouths and dumped the powder. It is a VERY fast "flash" powder that they use in blanks. It is more work than I am going to do any more!

[Frank46]

Just a suggestion, but never use blank powder for anything with a projectile. The powder is only to make noise and extremely fast burning. Please take this in the spirit in which it was offered. Frank

[mikeym1a]

"So, after reading about some people using a ball bearing to tighten the primer pocket mouth,..."
"I made a anvil, onto which I seated the empty case, and using a punch, I made a series of upsets around the case mouth, to tight up the case mouth."

Do you mean upsets around the primer pocket?
The photo shows punch marks around the primer pocket.


"Then I took and ran them through my Lyman primer pocket swager. Both felt like I was removing the crimp from military cases. When I seated the new LRP, I did feel what seemed to be normal resistance."

I suggest that you fire the rifle remotely with this ammunition.
I wonder if the primer pockets will seal properly and keep the powder gas from leaking.

About the primer pockets, Yes. I meant upsetting the brass around the pocket. It forces the brass out into the pocket, and I then use the swager to make it the right size.

About cutting off the end of the case, This is a brass case. There is no sparking in cutting through it. So far, I've converted 100 cases. No instance of ignition of the powder.

The converted cases, after annealing, perform quite well. They have fire-formed properly. All but one. There was a small split near the neck. I did not discover it until tonight. All the rest have behaved normally.

When I fire the cases with the converted primer pocket, I will take proper precautions.

Thanks for the responses. :-P

[mdi]

Thanks. I really enjoy posts from someone that can "think outside the box" and disregard "chicken little thinking". If some folks didn't use or share their ideas, we would all be buying a single load with a single size/shape bullet from the gun store. No home reloading and load development, no beer can gas checks, no wheel weight bullets, no "nipple cream" bullet lubes...;)

[rollingblock]

Very interesting thread. I would have thought that standing blanks in a half inch of water would be a simple heat sink.85468 I have tried drilling out berdan primers and putting in shotgun primers with "some" success. These work ok but are only suitable for low pressure loads as they are inclined to rupture. The attached pic is a couple of kynoch 8mm loaded with 21gr 4759 behind a 190gr CBE. One is ok and one has ruptured. After drilling a tight fit hole for the shotgun primer I countersink with a bigger bit to make the primer flange seat flush.

[geargnasher]

LC brass is boxer primed, plenty hard, and can take at least three firings at 40-44K PSI with no ill effects and no annealing. Primer pockets appear crimped like the machine gun ammo but require no swaging.

Gear

[azrednek]

I've used hundreds perhaps a thousand or better Canadian 30/06 blanks reformed into various calibers. When I started hand loading back in the 70's the only way to accumulate brass for many cartridges was buying factory ammo. I converted the 06 blanks into 7X57, 765 Argie, 7.7 Jap and 8MM Mauser. If the necks did not split on the initial fire forming. I annealed the shoulder and neck area. Bear in mind the 1891 765 Argies do not have a vent should any gas sneak by the shoulder when fire forming. I fried the lens on my shooting glasses fire forming a 765. Had I been foolish enough to fire form without the glasses it would have been my eyeball that was fried. I only had one of the numerous cartridges I fire formed blow by the shoulder but keep in mind it only takes one to destroy one's eyesight.

[mikeym1a]

I've used hundreds perhaps a thousand or better Canadian 30/06 blanks reformed into various calibers. When I started hand loading back in the 70's the only way to accumulate brass for many cartridges was buying factory ammo. I converted the 06 blanks into 7X57, 765 Argie, 7.7 Jap and 8MM Mauser. If the necks did not split on the initial fire forming. I annealed the shoulder and neck area. Bear in mind the 1891 765 Argies do not have a vent should any gas sneak by the shoulder when fire forming. I fried the lens on my shooting glasses fire forming a 765. Had I been foolish enough to fire form without the glasses it would have been my eyeball that was fried. I only had one of the numerous cartridges I fire formed blow by the shoulder but keep in mind it only takes one to destroy one's eyesight.

So far, of the 100 or so blanks that I have processed, only one has split, in the shoulder. However, the gas did not sneak back past the case body. Also, I wear prescription glasses, lens made of that real hard plastic. Darn, can't think of the name, but I'm sure you know what I mean. Darn, whilst trying to think of that, I've forgotten the other comment I was going to make. I am constantly reminded of that bumper sticker, '....of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most....'. Oh, well. Thanks to everyone for the encouragement. I'm only gonna do 20 of these primer conversions at first, to see the feasibility of it. If shooting them works well, and the 20 will be in gradual increases of power levels, then I will see about some changes to the way I'm doing it. I have an idea, but, want to see how they hold up first. Cheers!!!

[azrednek]

Reforming the boxer primed Canadian 30/06 blanks wasn't anywhere near as difficult as the project you took on. I punched out the red cardboard tab in the neck, dumped the powder and trimmed to the apx size before running through the full length sizer. After full length sizing I trimmed the brass again and chamfered the necks both inside and out. It was in my project I discovered STP as the best lube for re-forming. Took considerably less elbow grease ramming the cartridge all the way home in the sizing die.

The last batch I did I also removed the corrosive primer and re-primed before fire forming. I was ill advised. The gun show vendor that sold me the blanks assured me the primers were not corrosive. After discovering about 50 rds I had previously fire formed then hand loaded the second time around to 7.7 Jap corroding from the inside out. I had no choice but to pull the bullets and throw the rest in the garbage. I didn't attempt to salvage the powder.

[AlaskanGuy]

Wow...what a great post.... This look like something that i would do, just to see if i could.... Thanks for giving it a try....

[azrednek]

Wow...what a great post.... This look like something that i would do, just to see if i could.... Thanks for giving it a try....

That is how I got started. Did it just to see if I could. I was surprised how many cartridges have the 470-475 rim. I reformed others from the 06 blanks such as 308, 22-250 and 300 Savage. I didn't need them but had the dies and did it simply to see if I could do it. The only caliber I had problems with was 243. I couldn't get the sharp shoulder right without a bunch of elbow grease, really leaning on it. I eventually sprang my old Pacific 07 press out of alignment using a cheater bar.

A bit off subject. During the first shortage I was in need of 300 and 458 Win mag brass. I couldn't find either one without paying a rip-off price. A local gun shop was over stocked on 7MM STW brass and selling it dirt cheap. With the STW brass I converted it to 300 and 458 Win mag. I also did 308 Norma, just to see if I could.