Continuing Saga of Micro-Grooved H&R Handi-Rifle [Archive]

Misfire99

11-06-2007, 04:10 AM

Hi All
I had a post about my Handi-Rifle keyholling at 50 yards. I am still waiting to hear from one of the gunsmiths that might be able to deepen the groves of my rifle. And after doing some research I do believe Marlin dumped it's 45 cal micro groove reject barrels onto H&R. I can't find any 45/70 Marlin rifles that now have micro grooves. I still haven't had a sit down with H&R but I'm not holding my breath. I think they are going to shaft me.

There are not many options open to me at this time. Jacketed bullets are very expensive. As much as $77 for 25 to a low of $20 for 100. So if I am going to shoot jacketed guess which one it will be. But even the cheap jacketed bullet has problems. It is a Remington 405 grain Soft Point bullet. It has two cannelures neither of is good for crimping the brass. To get the brass to crimp in the first groove I either have to trim the brass or throat the chamber. And as luck would have it I have a 45 caliber throating reamer. But if I do this I am sort of making the chamber so it will shoot the Remington Bullet primarily. The advantage of throating is I will be able to set the bullet further out of the case giving more powder space. This would allow the use of more of the slower powders, such as 5010.

So if you were in this fix and had a reamer would you ream the chamber for the Remington Bullet? The Remington Jacketed comes out to about 20 Cents each. That's pretty cheap even for a cast bullet. And they have very good reviews as a hunting bullet. One reviewer said he shot a deer in the shoulder and it blew some of it's bones out of the opposite shoulder.

I'm leaning towards reaming the thing but if anybody has a reason why I shouldn't I really want to hear it before I ream it.

Bass Ackward

11-06-2007, 07:45 AM

So if you were in this fix and had a reamer would you ream the chamber for the Remington Bullet? The Remington Jacketed comes out to about 20 Cents each. That's pretty cheap even for a cast bullet. And they have very good reviews as a hunting bullet. One reviewer said he shot a deer in the shoulder and it blew some of it's bones out of the opposite shoulder.

I'm leaning towards reaming the thing but if anybody has a reason why I shouldn't I really want to hear it before I ream it.

Misfire,

Advice all depends on what you have ear marked for this project. If you are totally disappointed and this is to be an education, then this can make sense. If this is all to improve the gun for keeping and later use, then you could be disappointed. Think 50 times, cut once. :grin:

Renting a throater is a cheap trial. But at what diameter? I would want the ball seat no bigger than .457 if you are going to continue to shoot hard with that bore diameter. IF you cut say, .460 and need .457 diameter bullets, you are going to be no closer to accuracy than you are right now. And if you have the grooves opened later, then you may need to rent a throater again to keep the same throat / bore relationship.

I would try to get hold of a .454 sizer first and repeat the simple tests. You can bump the lands for guidance. You can use that sizer to size down your copper too. See if the gun quits key holing and what you can begin to expect from it before you put more money and time in it. This may not be accurate, but it if continues to keyhole, it will tell you that you may have more going on here.

From the supportive side, if you have gone over this in your mind to your satisfaction, you sound confident enough to tackle the project, I say go for it.

Bret4207

11-06-2007, 07:49 AM

Are you going to use it for cast or jacketed or both? I've looked at jacketed prices for my 45/70 and cent's see where I'm going to be using them at that cost. A cast 45/70 boolit will do anything a jacketed will, at the same ranges and speeds. You just have to find the right combination. There are a bunch of guys shooting the 45/70 MArlins here, Micro-groove and Ballard. Look around a bit.

VTDW

11-06-2007, 08:00 AM

Bret is right!! I shoot the .444 Microgrooves exclusively. In fact I sold a beautiful .444 in Ballard to buy another .444 in Microgroove. Conventional wisdom with Microgrooves is to push the boolits hard. Works for me.

Dave

DonH

11-06-2007, 08:13 AM

Does one need to crimp .45-70 cases to be fired in a single shot? I don't but mine is loaded to BP pressure levels. I understand the likely necessity in lever gun.

Lead melter

11-06-2007, 09:35 AM

I can't help with the keyhole problem, but I can advise on the crimp issue. Lee makes a Factory Crimp die in 45/70 that will let you crimp the brass super firmly on the jacket of that Remington bullet. The thing costs about $12 at Midway or Midsouth and is a superb investment. By the way, my H&R shoots that bullet 3 inside an inch at 100 paces with 31 grains AA-5744.

Mk42gunner

11-06-2007, 09:44 AM

Misfire99,

Before reaming your throat I would try two things.

1. Since this is a single shot; try it with no crimp, just remove the belling of the case mouth.

2. Buy a Lee Factory Crimp die. They are $8.49 from Midway, this morning.

Robert

Dr. A

11-06-2007, 09:50 AM

Try some .460 sized lead in one of the popular custom casters designs. Beartooth BUllets is famous for sending you the right bullet. I'd try this before any reaming. Poor combinations of lube and bullet hardness have given many a shooter problems in the past. What lead have you shot?

Might try one of these sized .460. Right balance of lube, size and hardness.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Leftoverdj

11-06-2007, 01:03 PM

On the other thread, you indicated .454 groove diameter, which sounds exceeding improbable to me. Assuming that this is correct, the barrel should still shot .457 cast well. Before I'd touch that rifle, I'd try the time proven 13 grains of Unique under a 405 grain bullet cast of air cooled WW. If you get keyholing with that , you've got a real problem.

.45-70 throater reamers ain't real common items to have laying around, although I had a Manson that never came back from a rental deal a couple of years ago.

jack19512

11-06-2007, 04:26 PM

[QUOTE=Misfire99;241925] I still haven't had a sit down with H&R but I'm not holding my breath. I think they are going to shaft me.

QUOTE]

Before I would continue to beat myself up over this I would have at least called H&R and got their opinion about what might be going on. Instead of taking the attitude that they are going to shaft you I firmly believe you should at least give someone the chance to try and make it right.

I second the advice about the Lee factory crimp. I use one on my 45/70 and they work great. I don't want to start a "crimp, no crimp" debate but I like at least a little crimp on everything I reload.

leftiye

11-06-2007, 06:04 PM

In sniggle shots you can use unsized brass so long as there is enough tension to hold the boolit ("thumb tight"). You can also leave in a slight bell to center the boolit in the chamber (might help, worth a try).

If you throat the barrel, you can make it (freebore) any length you want, including putting the whole bullet in and following it with a case full (or not) of powder. Moderation is suggested, enough freebore to center the boolit AND keep it straight in the bore. If your present bore is lacking a leade (like mine is) I'd start by just cutting a leade and testing that to see how it works.

I'd suspect that H&R would make it right if you contact them. I've found them cordial,and had good dealings with them, though I haven't yet gone to them with a problem. If not, remember that you can buy another barrel fitted to your reciever from H&R cheaper than you can get the rifling cut deeper (and you'd still have micro groove).

Misfire99

11-06-2007, 10:43 PM

Thanks all for your help. First off I have the throating reamer for 45 rifle because I also have a Sharps falling block that I shoot Black Powder Cartridge out of. I wanted to shoot a 500 grain Postell and seat it way out of the case with lube grooves exposed. This way I could get more powder in the case. I never got around to throating my Sharps because I got cancer. I am just now, after many years, getting back into shooting.

I do use a Lee crimp die. I think they work great. But if the bullet has a cannelure I would like to use it. And I haven't done a chamber cast but by the way bullets seat in the chamber I think I have little to no throat. Also I use AA5744 at 29.5 grains behind a 500grain bullet. I bought these from Midway on a close out sale. They are Laser-cast. These have to be the hardest cast bullets I have ever seen. I hit it with the file I use to mark a steel rod. When I hit the steel rod with this file I see and can easily feel the groove. When I hit one of the Laser-Cast bullets I can see the cut but can't feel it with my finger nail. These bullets are HARD!! The 29.5 of AA5744 is near, according to the books I have, the upper limit of pressure for this rifle. I have read accounts of Handi-Rifles popping open when there is to high of pressure. This is something I don't want to experience.

When I first posted the size of my bore cast I had just taken it with cerrosafe. When using cerrosafe you have to meassure at thirty minutes from the time you take the cast. This is the time that the contraction of the cerrosafe will be nearest to what it was cast in. I have the cast in my hand now and just measured it again, after many days from the cast, and it comes out to .452 and .457. This gives a groove size of .0025. I'm supprized it shoot jacketed as well as it does.

Before I do anything I will give H&R a chance to set it right. They also make a Buffalo Classic in 45/70 that doesn't have micro-grooves. I would like one of these barrels drilled and tapped for a scope and I will cut it down from 32 inches to maybe 26 inches myself. I have the tooling to cut and recrown barrels.

For you all that shoot cast in micro-grooved barrels. I don't know how you do it. I pushed these 500 grainers as fast as the law allows and it only got worse. When I used the lowest loading I had keyholing but the group size was only a few inches. When I put the pedal to the metal the group opened up to almost eleven inches with one not on the paper. But I will say that one of the fast moving group did cut a nice hole in the paper but all the others keyholed. I suspect that the nice hole is just a fluke with the bullet tumbling and just hit straight on by accident.

I talked to Ken at Classic Barrels Works. He does reboring. He told me that his machine could not pick up the existing grooves but he told me of a guy that did have a machine that could. I am waiting ti hear back from him.

One of the reasons I haven't contacted H&R is I have a sleep disorder. After cancer the drugs I need to take throws off my sleep pattern. I can't fall asleep until five am. So I don't get out of bed until around two or three pm. And I'm not worth much until four or so. H&R is on the east coast and closes at four pm their time. This means I have to be up and operating at three my time. I know this sounds easy but believe me it's not. But I do get a lot of casting and reloading done between the hours of midnight and five am.

Sometimes I lament what the cancer and chemo did to my body. But my daughter just came into my office to ask me a question. We home school and she is studying internal medicine and wanted to know why salt causes your body to swell. Well I have a medical background and could give her the answer. And you know that makes putting up with my pain and problems worth it.

jack19512

11-06-2007, 11:19 PM

Misfire99

First off let me say that I wish you the best and hope you do well. I will admit I don't know near as much as most of the guys here. I do have the Buffalo Classic 45/70 and I am really fond of this rifle.

I am doing quite well with my cast in this rifle. I shot the rifle again yesterday at a distance of 65 yards using a 100 yard smallbore rifle target and managed to hit the bullseye area twice and the third round was about an inch under the bullseye. For me this was quite exciting because this is the best I have done so far.

I do know from having had two other H&R rifles and learning from others that know more than myself that sometimes they can be picky and quite frustrating to try and get them to shoot well. I got rid of one of my H&R rifles just because I never could get it to shoot consistently. I do hope you find a solution to your problem. :drinks:

Leftoverdj

11-07-2007, 12:51 AM

When I first posted the size of my bore cast I had just taken it with cerrosafe. When using cerrosafe you have to meassure at thirty minutes from the time you take the cast. This is the time that the contraction of the cerrosafe will be nearest to what it was cast in. I have the cast in my hand now and just measured it again, after many days from the cast, and it comes out to .452 and .457. This gives a groove size of .0025. I'm supprized it shoot jacketed as well as it does.

Before I do anything I will give H&R a chance to set it right. They also make a Buffalo Classic in 45/70 that doesn't have micro-grooves. I would like one of these barrels drilled and tapped for a scope and I will cut it down from 32 inches to maybe 26 inches myself. I have the tooling to cut and recrown barrels.

There is no reason for H&R "to set it right" when there is nothing wrong. Those are absolutely normal specs for microgroove barrels, and dozens of us are shooting barrels with similar dimensions without problem.

Cast bullets are not jacketed bullets. You can't just pull a load out of the air and expect it to shoot. There would be no need for this board were it that simple.

garandsrus

11-07-2007, 01:50 AM

Misfire99,

I don't have a 45-70 (yet!) but I believe that your boolits are WAY TOO HARD. Most of what I have read about this caliber says to use a 16-1 to 40-1 Lead to Tin ratio. This would result in a MUCH softer boolit that would expand into the grooves properly when shot.

I would bet that someone that has some 45-70 boolits cast up would send you a dozen to try...

John

9.3X62AL

11-07-2007, 03:16 AM

Shallow grooves + over-hard boolits = PITA of the first order. Your land height is half that of my Ruger #1 in 45-70.

I would certainly try some softer boolits before throwing in the towel, and certainly before taking tools to the existing barrel. I know the feeling--I just got thoroughly disgusted today with a Marlin 94 in 25-20 that I foolishly thought was mending its evil ways with castings--Ballard rifling and all. Au contraire. Back to the drawing board. FWIW, my RWS 25 caliber air rifle out-shot the 25-20 today at 25 and at 50 yards.

Bret4207

11-07-2007, 08:24 AM

Were it me, I'd see if some of the kind hearted souls here couldn't come up with 25 or 30 suitable boolits cast right, that is much softer than those carbide Lazercast jobs, and see what the rifle does. Those specs sound about normal and it should do much better. I assumed you checked the normal stuff like loose sights, stock bolt, etc. I'd even go so far as to buy a 405 gr Lee mould and scrounge some wheel weights up and cast a few of my own before going to the expense you mentioned. How big are those Lazercast anyway? If they mic .457 or .458 they may well be too small to start with. Those guys cast for folks who have lower expectations than I do do IMO.

Newtire

11-07-2007, 09:12 AM

I had nothing but grief using the lasercast bullets in my .444. They leaded like crazy. They were all undersized for one. They are sitting under the bench waiting to be remelted into a suitable alloy.

I know I am the second guy to say this but I'll say it anyway. I don't believe the stuff about how micro-grooves won't shoot lead because I have one and it does exactly that quite nicely. As far as shooting them hard or soft or fast or slow, it doesn't make much difference whether the gun is ballard or micro-groove; the same rules apply. Size of the boolit is it really the only thing I could say would give you trouble. Sounds like you might be wasting your time and money. I shoot anything from a 200 gr. Lee cowboy boolit up to a 300 grain Lee bone cruncher and with the right powder and charge weight, they all shoot remarkably well. Like Bret says, give a few other boolits a try.

jack19512

11-07-2007, 10:13 AM

I would be happy to send you some of my cast 340 grain sized to .459 and cast from straight wheel weights if you want them. They are shooting quite well in my Buffalo Classic 45/70. Or, I have some 405 grain cast that I will send you. Or, I will send you some of both.:castmine:

Misfire99

11-07-2007, 02:27 PM

Well I just got off the phone with H&R. At first they said they would do nothing for me. They said that SAAMI specs were .456 for the groove depth. And by the way they assure me this is not a micro-groove barrel but rather has cut rifling. Personally I thought the SAAMI specs were .457 but that's ok. He also said that the tolerance is two thousands of an inch. This puts it done to .454 my barrel mics out to .4545. So I think that the tooling was getting worn when they cut my barrel. At first they were not going to do anything for me. Basically said go away kid you bother me. But I said I was interested in buying more from them and this would hurt our relationship. I asked if they would put another barrel on it. They said they would. I thanked them and said this is all I will ask of them. If the next barrel doesn't work for me I will eat it and just shoot jacketed. I'm not intersted in ripping them off or being a PITA but I would like the thing that I paid for to work properly. So if they do one attempt at getting it right I will accept that.

They also said I have to shoot factory ammo not reloads. I personally think my reloads are better then factory. For a number of reasons. The first is I don't resize my cases so they have the same size as the chamber and I adjust my OAL for the chamber with the bullet I am using.

And for garandsrus. You are correct about using softer alloy. When I shoot black powder cartridge I only use pure lead. And the best in my Sharps is a hollow base. I do have a bunch of these to try and thanks to those that offered other bullets but I have a bunch thanks. But my point is if it only gave me bad groupings I could live with that and get something to shoot right. But no bullet should keyhole at fifty yards at both high and low velocity. This is a problem with the rifle. And when I say that my bore mics at .4545 it's really cutting it close because my caliper, I could dig out my mics but right now I don't know where they are, is only rated to one thousandth of an inch. so that 5/10000 of an inch could be 2/10000 or 7/10000 I just don't have a way to tell right now. I suspect I am on the low side so I am just a red c__t hair within specs.

I suspect that the barrel I get will be better because they would have changed the tooling when it got this worn. I probably got one of the last barrels of the run so it is just inside specs.

I was going to get a 280 Remington barrel for this action. I'm contemplating sending the check for it when I send the rifle in for the new 45/70 barrel. Again I don't want to rip them off or be a PITA but I just want what's right.

leftiye

11-08-2007, 04:55 AM

You might as well get some more barrels fitted to your reciever while you're there. It do take a while (like all summer). Then they can treat your replacement barrel as one of the fittings. I'd send them a note specifying the kind of rifling you want (if they have it). BTW, they have a 15 dollar fitting charge on top of the 89 dollars per barrel, and they have some barrels that cost more. Watch out for their twists (check before you order)! They tried to sell me a 44 mag with 1 in 38" twist!

I've always thought that industry standard for 45 caliber was .450 bore, .458" groove. Why else do they make all of the ammo .458? .002" tolerance? What else besides a tractor tire has that much slop? Tell them gun barrels are measured in tenths, not meters! If it aint microgroove, then ask them what else has .002" deep rifling (besides a worn out barrel)! Pardon my ravings, I'd probly be a scosh piffed if it were mine!

Misfire99

11-08-2007, 06:41 AM

Hi Leftiye
Yea I am a little POd but I'm sure their margins are very small. And the specs you stated is what I thought also but Gordon, in customer service, assured me he was giving me the SAAMI specs. I am not going to send SAAMI $45 to get the spec so I will take his word for it. I will ask about the twist rate on the 280 Remington before I send in the order. I have it all filled out but haven't gotten a money order yet. I don't like filling out a sheet of paper with all my personal information and credit card number. So for them I will use a Postal Money Order. This way they know it's good right away and can get everything to me at once.

My personal opinion is most companies are honest. As are most customers. But it's the dishonest ones, both companies and customers, that make it hard for us all. For example I saw a thing on another forum where a guy used gun show reloads and blew up his S&W. He wanted S&W to give him another gun. I think this is dishonest. I think the dishonest customer occurs much more often then the dishonest company. So companies, like H&R, are "gun shy" when ever they get someone like me.

But there are dishonest companies out there. I placed an order on line for some engine parts, almost $2000 worth, over a year ago. The company is still online and taking orders but they no longer except phone calls and don't answer emails. I think I am going to have to call the police on them. But I know that at $2000 is not enough for them to get off their donuts and coffee and go arrest someone for this theft. So I'm not holding my breath. If it turns out I'm wrong I will let you all know.

38-55

11-08-2007, 07:22 AM

Misfire99,
I'm not trying to be rude or anything but wouldn't it be more prudent to try and match your bullet to your your barrel rather than the barrel to the bullet ? I have 3 h&r/new england arms and they all shoot just fine ( that's just the ones in 45-70). Try a little softer bullet. I actually have good luck with 21 gns of 5477 and the postell bullet. Also the lyman 458122 is a very accurate bullet with 25 gns 5477, even if it is sometimes a pita to cast...
After 12 years of being in the business I find there are dishonest customers and they are getting more common as society desinagrates... but I digress. As for dishonest companies.... well most often it's not really dishonest but they just seem to forget about problems... Always get a name and a contact number when dealing with companies.. That way when ya have to sick the law dogs on em' they have someone to look for.. Really seems to speed things up.
But back to the h&r/new england thing.... We always seemed to have problems with the .243's and the .22-50's, they just would not shoot. Everything else was good to go.
Hope everything works out for ya...
Stay safe
Calvin

jack19512

11-08-2007, 12:25 PM

I would like to add also that there are just so many dishonest people today that want to blame a company for any and all problems they encounter and believe me I would not want to be a company rep and deal with these people.

Nobody today wants to accept responsibility for nothing. There was a time when someone would accidentally bump into your car and do minor damage and at the very least would leave you a note on your windshield with their contact info, but not today.

Today, the first thing on their mind is to leave the scene as quickly as possible. I personally don't think I would ever make it as a business owner. There are without a doubt some businesses that are dishonest but my GOD what the honest ones have to put up with and deal with today is something else. I could tell you a story about something that happened to me not long ago involving someone but I've ranted enough for one day. [smilie=1:

Scrounger

11-08-2007, 02:02 PM

How can you tell an honest one? Is RCBS honest, just because they have a liberal Customer Service Policy? I admit it is great to have them completely replace something of theirs when it breaks, but look a little deeper. For them to keep from going bankrupt, they have to be charging 2 to 3 times their cost for everything they sell. What about the people who buy their products and never need replacement; Did they get cheated? I admit I don't know those answers, it is a moral dilemma far too deep for me.

38-55

11-08-2007, 02:38 PM

Jack 19512,
I finally had to give up being on the 'other side' of the counter. I just could not stomach the lying,ignorant customers any more. There certainly were many good folks that came in the store that I really miss but I just could not take the lies from the ignorant ones anymore... There really seems to be a movement in the industry to keep folks stupid so the manufactures can sell them more stuff that they don't need and really don't want and really can't afford.... It almost made me quit shooting... It's a shame really... That's why forums like this are such a breath of fresh air. So far I've only met one member in person but I'd certainly like to call him a friend for the rest of my life... Good folks are getting far and few between and should be cherished...
Scrounger,
Just look at rcbs's warranty as insurance that you pay for up front. Do you really expect to get all the money out of your car insurance that you pay in ? Just a thought..
Stay safe ya'll
Calvin

Misfire99

11-08-2007, 07:22 PM

Hi 38-55 I agree with you up to a point. If I was just getting a bad group I would say it's the load or the bullet or both. But no bullet,in my opinion, should keyhole at fifty yards at both high and low velocities. This is the fault of the barrel. And yea I could just restrick myself to high priced jacketed bullets but there are tons of guys, for a very long time, that have been shooting cast bullets in the forty five seventy. I'm glad for you that yours shoot. Why don't you take a chamber cast or slug your bore and see what your rifling is. I'm willing to bet it's more then two thousands of an inch as are mine.

About the dishonest people in the world today. I'm one of these strange old guys that went back to school in my forties to get a collage degree. I didn't get married until I was thirty six and had kids at thirty nine. I read a lot about kids and found out that children tend to attain the same level of education as their fathers. Well I want my kids to get a university education. So I went to get one myself. Got a degree in computer science and mathematics. Made the honor role also. One day on campus I met this young man that was embittered about the state of life. He misquoted Lord Acton's "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I told him if you are going to live your life according to another mans words the lest you can do is get them correct. The correct quote is "Power tends to corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely." I then pointed out that this is painfully incorrect. " Just drive to Blackhawk, a very upscale neighborhood, at one in the morning and go for a walk. "Then drive to North Oakland, a ghetto, and go for a walk at one in the morning." Where did you feel safer??? It's the powerless that are truly corrupt. I think this is why there are so many dishonest people today. Most people are powerless in their lives. All of our rights are under attack. Most families both the father and mother need to work, sometimes at more then one job each, just to make ends meet. They then give up their children's future to the state for their education. The level of education in America is in the toilet!!! Singapore produces much more educated young people then we do. American students rank lowest in actual test scores but highest in confidence. In other words they can't produce **** but they sure feel good about it. This keeps them very low. By the time they realize that they have been screwed it's to late and all they can do to get ahead is be dishonest. They can't earn it so they try to steal it. No matter what the "IT" is.

I have real fear for this country. The middle class is dissolving. I see in a very few years that we will have a two tiered system of haves and have nots. My wife and I decided to homeschool because of this. My children work on "school work" about two to three hours a day, sometimes less. They both are about two to three years ahead of what the school system would be having them do. Silvan learning centers guarantee that they will raise your child's gpa one full point in one hour a week. The state run school system have your children for seven hours a day. What are they doing all that time??? Grade inflation is rampent. That's dishonesty. Cheating is rampent, that's dishonesty. When I was at UC Berkeley one of my classes had six hundred students. On one assignment three hundred turned in the exact same paper!!!! That means fifty percent of the students cheat!!! Fifty percent!!! And what happened?? Nothing!! They were allowed to redo the assignment.

So when you see someone that is trying to get over on some company realize they were taught that by the very system that we have to instruct our children in how to be good citizens!!! What a very expensive joke.

38-55

11-08-2007, 08:03 PM

Misfire99,
I'd still bet your bullet is the issue rather than the barrel. With that said we had a few ( actually everyone we sold) .243's come back that just plain would not shoot anything. New England arms sent us replacement guns ( on our word ) but they seemed to have the same issue. We ended up refunding money or issuing store credits.. Never really did figure out the issue.
On the other subject..... Hopelessness leads folks to do some awful things... I was reared with poor folk and they always displayed dignity and pride at what they had ( with good reason ). The ones that excepted the public dole were bitter and shifty to say the least. They would not lift a finger to help/save themselves as it was "someone else's job". I pity them in a way and resent their lack of initiative... Life is what you make it...
Stay safe
Calvin
PS look for a pm from me

jack19512

11-09-2007, 01:12 PM

But no bullet,in my opinion, should keyhole at fifty yards at both high and low velocities.

I would have to disagree with you to some extent. As I stated in one of my previous posts when I first started casting I had a rifle that would keyhole and I was very disappointed in shooting this rifle.

Until, I discovered I was shooting a cast and sized .308 bullet out of a .311-312 barrel. As I stated I thought the velocity was low also, but I think the bullet diameter had more to do with the keyhole than the velocity.

I don't know it all for sure but this is just what I think was happening. After I stopped sizing to .308 for this rifle and sized to .311 I've never had another keyhole since.

Leftoverdj

11-09-2007, 03:58 PM

It's pretty silly to make every mistake possible with cast bullet loads and then blame the rifle, but we see that a lot.

Cast bullets are DIFFERENT! That's why we have this board. To shoot cast successfully, the bullets must match the bore, generally by being a bit oversized; the pressure must be a near match for the bullet hardness, and lube must be appropriate to the load. Violate all three, and you are guaranteed horrible results.

And it's always the rifle's fault, never that of the loader or the shooter.

If you hang around here very long, you are very unlikely to see the experienced cast bullet shooters blaming their rifles. You'll find long meticulous accounts of the things they have done to make cast bullets shoot in a given rifle. You'll read all the things that went wrong, and what it eventually took to get decent results.

It's the newbies who scream it's the rifle's fault. You'll find the ones who will listen being patiently guided step by step to success. Some won't listen, though. They want what they want, and they want if right now, and they'll whine because they can't have it.

If you want to find out what a .45-70 is capable of with cast bullets, you try one of the established accuracy loads with a moderately hard bullet. You slug your barrel, and size to .002 over. You use a decent lube, not the blue crayon so beloved of the commercial caster. You use a powder charge well known to be suitable to the bullet. That would be 13 grains of Unique, 27 grains of 5744, or 31 grains of 4198 behind a 405 grain sized .459 or .460 for most .45-70 Marlin rifles. The Lee 459-405-HB as cast of aircooled WW is about perfect. If you can't get one of those loads to shoot under 2" at 50 yards, you might have cause to complain about the barrel. If you have not tried a known accurate load, you have no one to blame but yourself.

btw, .45-70s don't have throats. Been that way from the beginning with a couple of exceptions.

JohnH

11-09-2007, 08:14 PM

I don't speak to this much, too easy for it to come off as slammin'....

Some time back I had some mixed blessing results with NEF rifles, oversized bore and groove diameters, and numerous mechanical problems. The final solution was easy, I got rid of 'em and moved to a higher quality product. First barrel I had for this high quality product wouldn't shoot cast for beans, I spent a year and a 1000 rounds to prove it to myself. Shot jacketed fine. Traded that barrel to a fella that wanted a jacketed bullet shooter, and recieved a great cast boolit shooter in return. Picked up another rifle along the way that is a good cast boolit gun too. I have a mil surp that shoots quite satisfactorily as well.

Part of why I shed my NEF was as a result of meeting a number of people that were having similar problems. Now here's the truth of the matter for me, I don't think it's possble to build a rifle that sells for under $250 and have anything worth having. Does that mean NEF is making a bad product? NO, it means that their product cannot be held to the same standards as a Remingtin, or Savage, or TC, other high quality manufactuer or any well designed mil surp. If you're not satisfied, sell it, get something you are satisfied with and stop doing business with 'em.

Overall, every NEF I had would shoot cast and shoot it well, but not without a lot of sweat and tears, (there was 1 exception of 4 guns nad 5 barrels) and not without wondering when the next time the rifle was going to break would be. I got out of 'em, much to the betterment of my sanity, might work for you too.

longbow

11-09-2007, 09:08 PM

Missfire99:

I have to agree with the folks talking boolit diameter and suitability with the rifle. I had a Mauser that had been converted to .308 that wouldn't shoot a Lyman 31141 well at any velocity with any powder until I gas checked it. Even with very light loads it would keyhole at 50 yards.

Once I gas checked it I got good accuracy with several powders and very good accuracy with 22 grs. IMR 4227.

I had a Marlin 1895 .45-70 with microgroove barrel that shot everything I put into it well with black or smokeless. Mostly I shot the Lyman 385 gr. round nose and Lee 405 gr. flat point - no problems with either.

I have a Marlin 1894 in .44 mag and shoot cast all the time... but it has a somewhat oversize barrel and I get horrible accuracy with any cast bullet I have tried if it is under 0.432" diameter.

It took a while but after I collected a few fired boolits I was finding gas cutting on the bases - yes I shoot mainly plain based boolits. Once I found that I upped the boolit diameter and the problems went away.

Just a thought.

Longbow

snuffy

11-10-2007, 02:27 AM

or 31 grains of 4198 behind a 405 grain sized .459 or .460 for most .45-70 Marlin rifles. The Lee 459-405-HB as cast of aircooled WW is about perfect. If you can't get one of those loads to shoot under 2" at 50 yards, you might have cause to complain about the barrel. If you have not tried a known accurate load, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Exactly! That was what was recommended here for me to try in my 45/70 H&R buffalo classic. here's the results;

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/405%204198%2031.5.jpg

That's at 100 yds, with a 3X9 scope. My tired old eyes aren't good enough for aperture sights at 100, 50, yes, but not 100. That's the lee .459-405 HBFP cast of 20-1 pure lead to tin. Sized to .458, lubed with NRA formula alox. A little tinkering will get it down closer to 1". 31.5 grains of IMR 4198 gave me 1439-1435 fps over 2 5 shot groups.

I'm wondering if what you're calling microgroove rifling, is actually only the H&R shallow rifling. As it is in my buff classic. It is actually better IMHO that deeper rifling for cast boolits.

Misfire99

11-10-2007, 08:56 AM

Maybe I haven't layed out what I got clear enough. The bore is .4545 my bullets are .4585. This is not undersized. And I tried them at both the lowest trap door velocity and at the highest marlin lever action velocity. It had the best group at the lowest velocity but they were all keyholed. At the highest velocity I had an eleven inch group with one shot off the paper. I know I mentioned it but I also shoot a Sharps Falling Block in forty five seventy. I do have experience shooting this round with cast bullets. You got to realize I have a rifle that has rifling that is two thousands of an inch deep. That is half of what it should be.

You guys are welcome to your opinions but I really don't need to be led by the hand step by step. I share my experiences and value your opinions but please try to pay attention to the information that is presented. I'm not shooting bullets that are undersized. I am shooting a rifle that has undersized rifling. I count the number of rifles I shoot, reload and cast for by the dozens because its quicker that way. I have well over sixty rifles. This is the only time I felt that any problem I was having was from the rifle. And when I get the new barell. Hopefully it will have rifling a little deeper then two thousands of an inch deep. And as I said before I thought it was microgroove because it had so little rifling. But H&R assures me that it is not. But rather has cut rifling. Well they didn't cut very deep on this one!!

I really wish that you guys that say here is my target, my rifle shoots just fine it can't be the rifle, would slug your bores and find out what the depth of your rifling is. Without doing that you aren't saying anything other then you have a rifle that shoots. I can post a target from my other forty five seventy and say see my other rifle shoots so it can't be the H&R but this is brain dead at best. And I have had PMs from a guy that sold H&R rifles. He tells me of some troubles that H&R had with some rifles not shooting. I think that they try to get to many barrels out of their tooling. They take it right to the limit. This is not good.

38-55

11-10-2007, 10:28 AM

Misfire 99,
Sounds to me like they got a 45 lc barrel mixed up on the line... Might just try a 45 lc bullet sized to .455 or .454 for grins and see what happens.. Just a thought. Heck you may even want to voice this concern to new england arms... May really, truly be a qc issue.
Stay safe
Calvin
PS It's been my experience that ALL rifles are a law unto themselves

jack19512

11-10-2007, 10:18 PM

I would have to pretty much agree with JohnH. I have had 3 H&R rifles so far. A 17 Mach II Sportster, a .223 Ultra, and a Buffalo Classic 45/70. Of the 3 rifles I only have the Buffalo Classic left.

The 17 Mach II Sportster I could not get to shoot consistent no matter what I tried. I had one person that kept on insisting I had to rest the receiver on shooting bags exactly the same way each shot to cure my problem and I kept telling him, UH, I don't take shooting bags with me when I hunt, DUH!!!!!. So, Misfire99 I do understand your frustration.

The .223 Ultra wasn't as bad as the 17 Mach II Sporter but basically the same problem, just not as bad. The Buffalo Classic I am pretty happy with so it is a keeper. The only thing going for the H&R rifles is the price, and that's no bargain if they don't work for you. I replaced both of the H&R rifles with Savage rifles and haven't regretted it for one second.

I do know that some of the H&R rifles will shoot very well, I also know some of them never shoot right and that is probably why my local gun shop has a lot of used ones in stock. I think it just a quality control problem. I did the best I could and slugged my 45/70 barrel and here is what I got, it may be off a little but it's as close as I can get. Groove diameter is 4575 and land diameter is 452.

snuffy

11-10-2007, 11:16 PM

I did the best I could and slugged my 45/70 barrel and here is what I got, it may be off a little but it's as close as I can get. Groove diameter is 4575 and land diameter is 452.

I just re-did mine, I didn't do the bore diameter the first time. As it was before, the bore diameter is .453, the land or groove is .457. Or do I have that backwards. In my thinking the bore is the smallest measurement, the rifling cutter makes a grove that is larger? In any case, my rifling is actually .002 also. But I certainly would not call it microgroove rifling, only very shallow groove. My boolits are sized .458, I have a .459 sizer die on order to try going .002 over groove diameter.

In any case, if mine will shoot, so should yours.

longbow

11-10-2007, 11:47 PM

My 1894 Marlin .44 mag. microgroove barrel slugs at 0.425" bore and 0.431" groove so 0.003" deep rifling. A little deeper than I thought but that's what I measured. As mentioned, I also had a Marlin 1895 in microgroove and had no trouble with cast boolits in it. Never slugged it to find out what the rifling depth was because I had no need. Wish I still had that one!

Both my Marlins have (had) very smooth shiny bores and well defined rifling though.

I would agree that if your H&R is at 0.0025" deep rifling it is shallow.

Have you examined any recovered boolits? If they are stripping or getting bad gas cutting it should be pretty obvious.

If your bore isn't smooth and shiny with crisp rifling the barrel is obviously bad. Even if it is smooth and shiny it could have a tight spot which swages the boolit down and results in gas cutting after the tight spot. Pushing a soft lead slug end to end will tell you if there is a tight spot.

How many grooves? My microgroove guns have both been 12 groove. Seems like Marlin at least decided that shallow rifling needs lots of lands to bite into the boolit.

jjamna

11-11-2007, 12:00 AM

Let us know when you find out something. I am getting curious as to what is going on. I have my thoughts but I have no experience with a 45-70. I have a 30-30 and 35 Rem both have micro groove barrels and shoot ok. NO Keyholes though.

PPpastordon

11-11-2007, 09:06 AM

Misfire99;
Thanks for your post. This has been interesting. The thing to remember is that each firearm does seem to be a law unto itself.

The finest shooting .45-70 I have ever owned was a NEF. It shot well enough that I traded it for a Ruger #1 in .45-70 when it shot my ammo and the Ruger's ammo (he had reloads and 2 factory loads) far better than the Ruger shot any of the ammo. My current NEF is no where near as good; but it satisfactory. My second best was an old, re-barreled rolling block.

Much testing of the Ruger never got it to shoot as well as that particular NEF.

My only previous "key-holing with cast boolit" rifle turned out to have a rough, inconsistent diameter bore. A friend had a bore-scope. That bore looked like Grand Canyon! However, with a foolish amount of time at hand-lapping, that barrel would eventually shoot cast suitably.

All said, I have no idea what the ultimate problem is with your firearm. However, if you are a man up to the challenge, I am sure it can be made (re-made?) to shoot - to some degree. However, the best I ever got with that Ruger before selling it was certainly "minute of deer" (well, about 4+", as best I remember) out to my 100 yard range. I expected better!

Let us know the "final chapter."

Thumbcocker

11-11-2007, 09:39 AM

Some No. 1 Ruger .45-70's have a tight spot under the sling swivel band. Ruger replaced the barrel on mine and things got a lot better.

Misfire99

11-12-2007, 01:58 AM

In any case, if mine will shoot, so should yours.

This statement makes me wonder how much experience you have shooting. Are you paying attention to what other people are posting??? Others have had rifles from H&R, some shoot and some don't. Something that I have noticed is everybody that's happy with the forty five seventy from H&R have the Buffalo Classic, isn't that what you have snuffy? Well folks the Buf Classic has a barrel that is ten inches longer then mine. You think that might have something to do with it snuffy??

I started with H&R by buying a Huntsman 50 cal muzzle loader. This is a very nice rifle. Shoots sweet. The huntsman was my first experience with H&R. I really like the 45/70 so I bought the Handi-Rifle. I do think it's a nice rifle but mine needs some work.

A number of people say I should just sell the rifle. I wouldn't do a thing like that. I think it's dishonest to sell something without full discloser of it's problems. And if I tell people that it keyholes at fifty yards who would buy it??

It will be interesting to see what happens wit H&R when they put the new barrel on this one. I wonder if they will take the time to check if the rifling on the one they put on is better then this one.

snuffy

11-12-2007, 05:30 AM

Exactly! That was what was recommended here for me to try in my 45/70 H&R buffalo classic. here's the results;

That's from my post with the target I scanned. Yes the barrel is longer, so what? The point I was making is my rifling is the SAME as yours, and it is NOT microgroove rifling. Marlin microgroove rifling has multiple grooves and lands like longbow said 12 grooves,(or more for larger bores), mine has 8 lands and grooves.

As for my shooting experience, I'm 61, I started shooting my brothers Crossman pellet gun at age 7. I started loading in 1965 and casting in 1973.

When I get a new rifle or any other type weapon, I certainly don't try just one bullet with a few different powders and say there's something wrong with my barrel. If that were the case, I would have already given up on my buff classic, at first it wouldn't shoot anything I tried. Other than those dreaded J-bullets.

Do everybody a favor, try some of those pure lead boolits in the handi rifle. I think you'll be surprised!

Scrounger

11-12-2007, 09:24 AM

And if I tell people that it keyholes at fifty yards who would buy it??

Some damn fool who thinks he's smarter than anyone else and can fix it. Believe me, there are people like that out there!

snuffy

11-12-2007, 01:03 PM

And if I tell people that it keyholes at fifty yards who would buy it??

Some damn fool who thinks he's smarter than anyone else and can fix it. Believe me, there are people like that out there!

Well, I used to work in a gunshop. There was this fella that bought a 50 cal Thompson center Hawken smokepole. He SAID he tried everything he could, the rifle just would not group. So the boss had TC replace the barrel, he took the old one to keep.

Since I had a 45 Hawken, the 50 barrel would fit right on my stock. He gave it to me! Fer nuthin! I took it out with TC sabots, and 45 cal 240 gr. xtp hollow points. It shot very well! it shoots darn near everything real well.

So was the barrel defective? To the first owner it was, he was doing something wrong.

Leftoverdj

11-12-2007, 01:41 PM

Something that I have noticed is everybody that's happy with the forty five seventy from H&R have the Buffalo Classic, isn't that what you have snuffy? Well folks the Buf Classic has a barrel that is ten inches longer then mine. You think that might have something to do with it snuffy??

...

It will be interesting to see what happens wit H&R when they put the new barrel on this one. I wonder if they will take the time to check if the rifling on the one they put on is better then this one.

Eh?

Both of mine have 22" barrels. I'm happy.

As multiple people have told you, the specs you have given for your barrel are pretty much standard for H&R. If they do give you a new barrel, it will be much the same.

HORNET

11-12-2007, 08:38 PM

Misfire,
Check the throating on that barrel. I think H&R buy their reamers from the same people as Thompson-Center and the throat angle is so sharp that it does major damage to the boolits on their way into the bore. If you look up on the 'Shooters' forum at the stickies, you'll find one by Finn45 titled "Throat Lapping a Buffalo Classic" that has some very nice pictures of before and after. FWIW, lots of cast boolit match shooters like about a 1-2 degree/side throat just .001 or .002 larger at the entry than the boolits that their using. That lets the boolit evenly squeeze down with minimal damage. Those 45 degree chamfers that H&R (and T/C) claim are throats are rough on projectiles.
Note: Back in Fouling Shot #180, Ed Harris claimed that he'd rechambered T/C .357 barrels to a 1-1/2 degree/side taper out to full case diameter and got 50% group size reductions with 38 wadcutters despite an extremely long jump to the rifling.

drinks

11-12-2007, 11:14 PM

I hate to be this way, but after reviewing the 3 sections of the thread and taking notes, I feel 99 is either under the influence of medication or is pulling our legs.
I have a Handi .45-70, it is .452x 4565 and I COULD be bothered to get out my mike, not make wag's with a caliper.
I have shot groups under 5/8" at 50 yds with it and some 4" at 25 yds too, just depends on the bullet and the powder.
99 started out with a .454 groove dia., then went to .452x.457, bore and groove, then went back to a .4545 bore again, all this with a caliper. Does he know the difference between groove and bore?
He must be the world's best caliper reader.

I have a very hard time taking this seriously.

Scrounger

11-13-2007, 02:05 AM

That thought occurred to me also. He seemed more interested in having conversation about it than fixing it.

Leftoverdj

11-13-2007, 10:51 AM

There is something I am noticing about a few people here. You have serious personal problems. You want to try and degrade me because you have a hard time being up front with anybody. That is why you don't follow what I have written. All of the guys that are being A holes are all taking only some of what I say and not all of it. I wonder if it's just you aren't smart enough to read clearly or are you evil and trying to spread discord?? I hate to say it but so far I think you are evil. You are not friendly. You try to make yourselves look bigger then you are by tearing others down. This is a personal problem that I bet you have had all your lives. I had cancer, it is now cured. You have mental illness that is untreatable. Which one of us is really sick???

Actually, this is the friendliest, politest, most knowlegeable group of people that I have had the pleasure of being associated with in my life. There is not a one of us who has not given and recieved help in gun related matters. Drinks cut and sent out reamers at no charge to fix faulty group buy moulds. JohnH has several times sent me bullets for some of my odder projects. Misfire has been offered free bullets that are known to work well in H&R barrels. I believe Snuffy has honchoed group buys, a major unpaid donation of time and effort.

This thread has had the benefit of several hundred years of collective cast bullet experience from shooters who have used dozens of H&R barrels with hundreds of loads. I've corresponded with some of them for years and respect their knowlege.

They are not the problem.

waksupi

11-13-2007, 11:06 AM

jack19512

11-13-2007, 11:43 PM

Just to show how easy the train can jump the track here is what happened to me yesterday. Deer season is in here in KY. I got up at 5:30 AM so I could get to my spot I had picked out the day before.

It was starting to become light and I heard a little noise down the hill from me so I thought I had better take a view through the scope just to make sure I had enough light in case I had to make a shot.

Well, I couldn't make out crap, at first I thought my scope had fogged up on the outside of the lens. I wiped the lens off and had no improvement. I then thought something had caused my scope to fog up on the inside.

Thank goodness I didn't have to take a shot. As daylight came I realized my scope hadn't fogged up but being carried on my ATV evidentially knocked the scope out of alignment permanently, insert cheap scope here.

I went to my local Walmart and purchased a new Nikon scope to go on my H&R Buffalo Classic and proceeded to sight the new scope in. I only had 10 rounds of my cast reloads but thought that would be sufficient to sight the scope in.

Wrong, what had been a very good shooter and what had been doing very well with my cast reloads turned horrible. My groups were terrible. A pattern more like a shotgun. My first thought was I had got a defective scope. I never got the rifle sighted in and had planned on returning the scope for an exchange.

But, that night I thought I would clean my barrel even though I hadn't had any trouble with leading with my cast bullets. Oh my gosh, I haven't seen so much lead in a barrel in my life. It took me an hour to get the lead out of the barrel.

Now, this has been a long boring story and when I tell you the only difference I had made in the previous rounds that had been very successful in my Buffalo Classic you are going to think I am nutty.

I recently purchased a Marlin lever action 45/70 Cowboy rifle and had planned on or hoped that I could use the same rounds in both my 45/70's now but the way the lever action rounds load I thought it best to wipe the lube off the face of the cast bullets as not to make a mess of the loading gate of my new Marlin.

I swear that is the only change that I had made to these previously great performing bullets. To say that I am puzzled would be an understatement. Tonight I have loaded up some more of my cast bullets and will not wipe them off this time and see how it goes tomorrow. :confused: