Any experience with heavy conicals in .45 muzzleloader?

[delipp_42]

Shot a nice 8 pointer in the neck, boolit exit behind right shoulder. Not very big exit hole. No hydraulic shock. Shot deer at 20 steps, .45 cal. 475 gr. lyman pure lead, with 70gr. 777 powder, 1300fps at muzzle. Worried about lack of hydraulic shock.

[NSP64]

Did you find the dear? If so then the boolit did what it was supposed too.:drinks:

[freedom475]

What you have there is a long range "hole-punch". A 475gr. 45cal. boolit at 1300fps will penitrate through 3 deer, provided the soft lead boolit doesn't deform too bad.

A load of this weight and velocity with a hard cast boolit will shoot through a Cape Buffalo, and has. It kills by pokeing holes through vital organs and bone.

This is not a "High-Power" weapon so you can't expect the shock or massive tissue trama caused by a 300win@3100fps.:Fire:

Bottom line, dead is dead... the up-side is you don't have to deal with the mess and loss of meat from all that shock.

Welcome to the site. :drinks: This is a good read related to your concern. Search...John Linebaugh Heavy Bullets Part 1and2

:castmine:

[MT Gianni]

Hydraulic shock is not happening with a muzzle-loader unless you hit the point of the shoulder and send bone fragments into the lungs. [don't ask me how I know] elmer keith describes a lead bullet kill with a handgun as "let some cold air in and some warm blood out". That works for black powder also as velocities are similar. Gianni

[idahoron]

Was you bullet a 475 gr Whitworth bullet? I have the lyman Whitworth mould. I have been shooting bullets cast from chilled shot. With 90 gr of pyrodex P I am getting 1390. Those slugs will bore holes through Rail Road ties at 100 yards. I am thinking that cast a little hard those bullets would plow through a elk length wise at ranges under 100 yards. At 1380 FPS has 1996 Foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. It still has over 1000 FPE at 275 yards! No you wont get the hydraulic shock like a centerfire. Like freedom475, said "It kills by pokeing holes through vital organs and bone." A bullet that big blows a BIG hole with less blood shot meat. Ron

[Rattus58]

No offense meant here, but IN MY OPINION I would no sooner harden the whitworth, which if it is what I'm thinking it is, the 457121, cast it as soft as you can for a muzzleloader. It's still likely to go through the elk in any which way, but actually kill it on its way, where a hardened bullet may not.

If you're going in at much higher velocities, then yes, a composite bullet might be the answer, but at 1400 fps... the 121 is a deadly bullet.

Hydrostatic shock... there is no such thing actually, but we all understand what we mean by it, the obliteration of the vital organs. Soft lead bullets are meant for this work. The heavy soft lead bullets do this work on their own, letting the resident energy stored in the moving bullet finish what the shooter started by getting the bullet underway. Hardened bullets don't perform this way. They just plow ahead with little expansion. This may kill anything it hits, but not as well as soft lead will, in MY OPINION.

Big long bullets do not get driven off track as do lighter bullets. Sure bone may change its course some, but the likely outcome is easily forecast. When soft lead expands it creates a larger wound channel. As it expands it slows, and this is where the larger heavier bullet becomes the driving force to complete the mission. Hardened bullets don't expand as much, maybe not at all even, and as such they carry more of their energy through the animal, barely slowing at all, slipping through the vitals at top speed and possibly with greater penetration even.

.451 vs .475/.500. The hardened bullet pierces its way through game. The soft lead bullet has to work its way through game as it expands. This work will result in a wound channel anywhere from 11% to 25% larger.

Now, hydrostatic shock. Technically as it relates to bullets is a myth. The idea being that the bullet creates a pressure wave like would be created by detonating a charge in water as it goes through the body and cause damage some distance from the charge or wave. This might work in water which is incompressible, but tissue is compressible, is also elastic,and also does have memory, so the idea that a pressure wave would cause tissue damage some distance from the wound channel is not possible.

Pressure waves are not a myth though, and high speed bullets at 2 to 3 times the speed of sound do in fact have pressure waves that accompany them both in flight and in penetrating the body. In properly placed locations, these wounds are unsurvivable with properly sized bullets. At muzzleloader velocities, just over the speed of sound, there is no "wave" so to speak and it is the expanding bullet that creates the wound channel. Here again, properly sized bullets needs to be reinforced.

Speed and size. They seem to be the magic components of killing game. The larger the game, the larger the bullet needs to be. For big game, bullets need speed with the smaller calibers, but they also need weight. As bullets start losing velocity, they necessarily need to increase in size and weight. It all comes down to wound channel and somewhat expanding bullets, whether .270 or .58.

Get a big bullet through your game or a smaller bullet with high velocity and you generally have the same result from different formulas.

Aloha.... :cool:

PS.... keep em soft.... IN MY OPINION

[windwalker]

No offense meant here, but IN MY OPINION I would no sooner harden the whitworth, which if it is what I'm thinking it is, the 457121, cast it as soft as you can for a muzzleloader. It's still likely to go through the elk in any which way, but actually kill it on its way, where a hardened bullet may not.

If you're going in at much higher velocities, then yes, a composite bullet might be the answer, but at 1400 fps... the 121 is a deadly bullet.

Hydrostatic shock... there is no such thing actually, but we all understand what we mean by it, the obliteration of the vital organs. Soft lead bullets are meant for this work. The heavy soft lead bullets do this work on their own, letting the resident energy stored in the moving bullet finish what the shooter started by getting the bullet underway. Hardened bullets don't perform this way. They just plow ahead with little expansion. This may kill anything it hits, but not as well as soft lead will, in MY OPINION.

Big long bullets do not get driven off track as do lighter bullets. Sure bone may change its course some, but the likely outcome is easily forecast. When soft lead expands it creates a larger wound channel. As it expands it slows, and this is where the larger heavier bullet becomes the driving force to complete the mission. Hardened bullets don't expand as much, maybe not at all even, and as such they carry more of their energy through the animal, barely slowing at all, slipping through the vitals at top speed and possibly with greater penetration even.

.451 vs .475/.500. The hardened bullet pierces its way through game. The soft lead bullet has to work its way through game as it expands. This work will result in a wound channel anywhere from 11% to 25% larger.

Now, hydrostatic shock. Technically as it relates to bullets is a myth. The idea being that the bullet creates a pressure wave like would be created by detonating a charge in water as it goes through the body and cause damage some distance from the charge or wave. This might work in water which is incompressible, but tissue is compressible, is also elastic,and also does have memory, so the idea that a pressure wave would cause tissue damage some distance from the wound channel is not possible.

Pressure waves are not a myth though, and high speed bullets at 2 to 3 times the speed of sound do in fact have pressure waves that accompany them both in flight and in penetrating the body. In properly placed locations, these wounds are unsurvivable with properly sized bullets. At muzzleloader velocities, just over the speed of sound, there is no "wave" so to speak and it is the expanding bullet that creates the wound channel. Here again, properly sized bullets needs to be reinforced.

Speed and size. They seem to be the magic components of killing game. The larger the game, the larger the bullet needs to be. For big game, bullets need speed with the smaller calibers, but they also need weight. As bullets start losing velocity, they necessarily need to increase in size and weight. It all comes down to wound channel and somewhat expanding bullets, whether .270 or .58.

Get a big bullet through your game or a smaller bullet with high velocity and you generally have the same result from different formulas.

Aloha.... :cool:

PS.... keep em soft.... IN MY OPINION

you are so rite i have killed big hogs with a.58 625 grn mini pure lead that i put a small hollow point in them the results where devestating recoverd the mini under the hide on the far side ,the hogs droped where they stood,the exspantion was awesome they dubbled in size see pics.these loads where shot from a navey arms buffalow hunter made by antonio zoli back in the early 1980's with very heavy loads of powder droped a water buff with the same bullet and load recoverd that mini as well it just looks like a big chunk of lead shot him through the head rcoverd the mini under the hide at the back of the head,he droped on the spot aswell clasic brain shot busted his skull rite up.the bottom pic is of the buff horns and the buffalow hunter it is the bottom gun.
bernie:-D
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y236/windwalker_au/100_4434.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y236/windwalker_au/100_4826.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y236/windwalker_au/buffhorns.jpg

[idahoron]

Rattus58, I mean no offense either.
The reason I pour mine out of chilled lead is mostly for accuracy. I have several different types of lead left to me by my Grandfather.
I tested pure soft lead all the way to the hardest I have. I got the best groups out of the chilled shot lead.
Rattus58, Are you saying a bullet that is hard won't kill a elk? They use .458 solids on Cape buffalo with amazing results. In fact Solids are used on many of the dangerous, and plains game in Africa. Are you saying a elk harder to kill than a cape buffalo, or a eland?
I personally have killed 39 head of deer, 17 head of elk with everything from a 243 Winchester to a 338 to a 54 Cal muzzleloader with Sabots and 50 cal Hornady great plains bullets to a Bow. If you plow a 1/2" hole through vital organs an animal will die, That is a fact.
You said "Hardened bullets don't perform this way. They just plow ahead with little expansion. This may kill anything it hits, but not as well as soft lead will, in MY OPINION."
Dead is dead. I don't under stand how a hard bullet can kill anything it hits but it won't kill as well as a soft. Dead is dead. Full penetration will give two holes for blood to flow and a better track. Most animals shot will run unless they are broken down. Full penetration will give an enhanced blood trail.
You did say "Get a big bullet through your game or a smaller bullet with high velocity and you generally have the same result from different formulas."
I agree with what you are saying, but The key words here are "Through your game" The bullet needs to be accurate enough to hit the target and Hard enough to get through. My point is don't be afraid to try different hardness to get the results you want. I want an accurate bullet, and full penetration. Harder bullets will give deeper penetration and a deeper wound channel. The flat nose and Diameter will give enough width to the wound channel.
No offense taken but I do have a different opinion, And it is formed by the number of game I have taken over the years. That is just my opinion, and like they say opinions are like belly buttons everybody has one. :-D Ron

[Rattus58]

That absolutely correct... dead is dead and what works for you is... well what works for you. That these bullets are more accurate for you speaks for itself. Shot placement is the most important criteria in killing game. I don't use hardened bullets. I don't know how hard chilled shot is either. If chilled shot is too hard, it won't even load in my barrel, and for many, won't be accurate in a muzzleloader.

As for hardened bullets not killing, I have no experience personally, but have anecdotal references of long long tracking jobs and lost animals with hardened bullets at low velocities and was the reason that some decided to experiment with composite bullets, soft nose and hardened base especially for more temperamental game.

I'm not saying that hardened bullets don't work but it probably would have to be paper patched and driven at the upper end of muzzleloader capability.

I'm for soft lead.

Aloha... :cool: :drinks:

[PAT303]

Windwalker when are you inviting me over for a shoot. Pat

[Underclocked]

http://home.mchsi.com/~rltsr2/Recovered.jpg

recovered from under the off-side hide of a 7pt whitetail. Started life as a Lee .457-405F sized to .451 and weighed ~423 grains. Recovered weight was 373 grains (if my memory is correct) and there was an obvious small chunk missing from the nose section.

[Digital Dan]

I guess hard cast kills.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/fannucismontanaelk.jpg

I'm more inclined to soft, but proper design and proper placement will do with the former. Cape Buff fall to such contrivance in Africa as I've read. Pure lead typically retains about 99% of weight in my end of the galaxy, be it in medium of flesh or sand. Penetration is deep with a starting velocity of ~1600 fps.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN1880.jpg

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Seems to me that most ALL American buffalo were killed with black powder and either pure lead patched, 30/1 or 20/1 alloy. BvT

[floodgate]

Hochverehrte Baron von Trollhvack:

"Seems to me that most ALL American buffalo were killed with black powder and either pure lead patched, 30/1 or 20/1 alloy. BvT"

Ackshully, huge numbers of them were killed by the Native Americans by herding them through stone-wall "funnels" to and over the edge of a cliff. Some of those bone piles are still many meters deep. Saved a LOT of precious powder and lead - or flint and obsidian!

floodgate

[MT Gianni]

Hochverehrte Baron von Trollhvack:

"Seems to me that most ALL American buffalo were killed with black powder and either pure lead patched, 30/1 or 20/1 alloy. BvT"

Ackshully, huge numbers of them were killed by the Native Americans by herding them through stone-wall "funnels" to and over the edge of a cliff. Some of those bone piles are still many meters deep. Saved a LOT of precious powder and lead - or flint and obsidian!

floodgate

Having taken relatives to the Madison Buffalo Jump this past summer I was intrigued with reading the description of how hard this was by an observer and how many people were working in concert to get the stampede moving and keep it on track. I still would like to have been a fly on the lodge wall when it was first thought of. "He** Cheif, what say we just run 'em over that cliff". Gianni

[Baron von Trollwhack]

As we see, a rather impractical thing to worry about, delipp 42. BvT

[Buckshot]

..............Ya think all the answers scared ole delipp_42 off :-)?

................Buckshot

[RBak]

..............Ya think all the answers scared ole delipp_42 off :-)?

................Buckshot

I was wondering the same thing. A new poster can sometimes be overwhelmed with too much information.

I hope that was not the case here.

Russ...