Hard cast and leading

[Moondawg]

There has been a lot of discussion on the S&W Forum about the need for hard cast boolits to avoid leading in pistolas. According to consensus swaged boolits and softer cast boolits if shot at anything much over 800fps will lead something terrible. Now I always understood that bore fit and quality of lube were more important than how hard the boolit was. In fact, I shoot some 158 gr, boolits that are not very hard around 1200 fps through my 1894 marlin with no leading what so ever. I am using a good ole White Label Carnauba Red and the boolits are a couple of thou over bore diameter. I have had lots of leading with some hard commercial cast boolits and the nasty hard stuff most use for lube.

I don't want to get into a p!$$ing contest with these guys. Am I wrong? I just can't see the need for really hard cast at the velocities most pistols get shot at. Some of these guys consider a BHN of 12 to be ultra soft.

[JWFilips]

I hung out over there for quite some time but then I found out where the experts are! I have been here ever since. My Smiths are doing much better now with proper sized 9 BHN boolits!

[cbrick]

Some people have a deep seeded need of making sure old wives tales never die. Hardcast is nothing more than a name invented by commercial bullet casters for the sole purpose of selling their product and it has nothing to do with what is best for their customers. Too hard is the second leading cause of poor accuracy and leading right behind poor bullet fit, both of which many commercial casters specialize in.

No, your not wrong but there is no shortage of folks that will stick with the old wives tales and refuse to listen to reason.

Rick

[Old Caster]

For many years the bullet that was perceived as the best of the best for 45 ACP was the swaged Star 185 SWC. They were pure lead and while they normally were only shot at around 750fps their BHN was around 5. Swaged bullets of today are a harder lead but I think the only reasons they are harder is because harder lead is easier to get cheaper and when shipped, they don't deform as easily. BPCR shooters shoot around 1250 fps and generally use only pure lead with from 5% to 2.5% tin. Leading will happen in some guns but it is marginal and easy to clean out. If you like leading, buy some commercial hard bullets with hard lube.

[turmech]

If I have my facts correct Elmer Keith created the 44 mag and his load was 22 gr of 2400. He shot 16 parts lead to1 part tin which is around 11 bhn. And this was in a S&W. 12 Bhn was considered hard then. Before my time but that is how I understand it.

I don't think the guns changed just peoples misconceptions.

[GP100man]

I WASTED alot of alloys before finding this site !!

If my loads, alloy & lube is workin , to heck with "hardcast"

[Old Caster]

I was told when I was casting bullets for the AMU in 1965 that hard cast was not necessary and was in most cases detrimental. We used scrap lead from the pistol range that was probably mostly rimfire and it in my opinion needed some tin because I didn't like the fillout we could achieve but they shot well as some of the shooters scores were as high as anyone anywhere shot. One of our shooters won the centerfire slowfire championship in Erlangen Germany that year with a back to back 95 using a 6 inch model 14 Smith and 358495 Lyman bullets from 4 cavity molds. We ran the pots as hot as they would go and as fast as we could go and I never got a frosted bullet. We didn't have thermometers then so I have no idea how hot the alloy really was.

[Piedmont]

The S&W board is good for what it is. Lots of pretty pictures and some serious shooters and collectors. Don't expect handloading expertize from most of that membership, though. There are a few, but you need to figure out who they are.

This board, on the other hand, is more of a hardcore reloading board.

[williamwaco]

The perfect storm for leading a pistol or a revolver is an undersize hard cast bullet.

I prefer bullets in the range or 8 to 12 BNH.
I shoot these at velocities up to 1800 fps in the .357 Mag ( In rifles )

Try them. You will like them.

.

[runfiverun]

I read the first post at 7:30.
it's 10:30 now and I have just barely quit laughing too hard to type.

oh, yeah. the term hard-cast denotes the use of antimony, nothing more.

[waksupi]

The S&W board is good for what it is. Lots of pretty pictures and some serious shooters and collectors. Don't expect handloading expertize from most of that membership, though. There are a few, but you need to figure out who they are.

This board, on the other hand, is more of a hardcore reloading board.

I beg your pardon, this is a HANDLOADING board, not a reloading board. Big difference in expertise! :cbpour:

[MtGun44]

Hardness beyond about 8-12 BHN is mostly useless to harmful for pistols. IME I can drive any
good design boolit with a good lube and properly fitted to full max magnum velocities with zero leading
and good to great accuracy. Hard cast is a marketing term for commercial boolit sellers. Not
necessary in pistols. Anybody that tells you that you can't drive soft (like 8 BHN) boolits over
800 fps without leading is pretty ignorant of the proper methods. Now if they mean pure lead,
about 5 BHN, that might be different, I never use pure Pb except in muzzle loaders.

Bill

[12DMAX]

Through trial and error i discovered that I do need a harder bullet, 50/50 heat treated in my HK but all other pistols are air cooled.

[chevyiron420]

One of the problems I had some time ago was trying to cast for every hand gun the same way, water dropping all boolits because it was convenient for me. I had bad leading in my 32S&W longs and 38S&W with good fits. I finally broke out of the hard boolit to fix leading wives tale and my leading got under control. However, my 44mag wants the hardest boolits I can feed it.

[Hickory]

There has been a lot of discussion on the S&W Forum about the need for hard cast boolits to avoid leading in pistolas. According to consensus swaged boolits and softer cast boolits if shot at anything much over 800fps will lead something terrible. Now I always understood that bore fit and quality of lube were more important than how hard the boolit was. In fact, I shoot some 158 gr, boolits that are not very hard around 1200 fps through my 1894 marlin with no leading what so ever. I am using a good ole White Label Carnauba Red and the boolits are a couple of thou over bore diameter. I have had lots of leading with some hard commercial cast boolits and the nasty hard stuff most use for lube.

I don't want to get into a p!$$ing contest with these guys. Am I wrong? I just can't see the need for really hard cast at the velocities most pistols get shot at. Some of these guys consider a BHN of 12 to be ultra soft.

Life is too short to be arguing with people, if it works for you do it.
I make .224 caliber bullets from 22 rim fire cases, a few times when I have shared my method and procedure I have been told I'm doing it wrong, but no matter, I know what works for me. I build these bullet for accuracy, I don't shoot them in machine guns.

[btroj]

Never get in an argument with idiots, it will only make you angry and tired.

I shoot mostly water dropper range scrap. Runs 14 BHn in general and it doesn't lead my handguns at all. Works quite well in my Marlin 357 at 1500 with a plain base too.

There are many internet experts out there. Maybe this is why I don't go to any other shooting forums.

[captaint]

I do enjoy the S&W forum - however, there are VERY few casters of boolits over there. I make it a point to avoid the "reloading" section. Heck, 25 years ago, I used to shoot those Hornady swaged wadcutters. Never any leading and very accurate to boot. Mike

[btroj]

I can shoot commercial .357 hard cast from my GP100 and get lead it every time. My soft cast at .359? No leading at all.

[robpete]

moondawg- I use the same exact recipe as you in EVERYTHING and get zero leading.

[mdi]

Some people have a deep seeded need of making sure old wives tales never die. Hardcast is nothing more than a name invented by commercial bullet casters for the sole purpose of selling their product and it has nothing to do with what is best for their customers. Too hard is the second leading cause of poor accuracy and leading right behind poor bullet fit, both of which many commercial casters specialize in.

No, your not wrong but there is no shortage of folks that will stick with the old wives tales and refuse to listen to reason.

Rick
I agree 100%. I still look around the S&W forum and at one time shared my opinions on casting (correct size trumps BHN) but I often was "poo-pooed" by the experts and tired of saying the same thing over and over; "slug the barrel of your gun. Measure the cylinder throats...".

[Moondawg]

Thanks guys, now I feel better. I do slug my barrels, that is how I know how much, or little, to size my boolits.

[BAGTIC]

Size may have more to do with it than hardness. It is easier to expand a soft bullet to fill the bore. An undersized hard bullet at too low pressure may not expand enough to fill the bore. A sufficiently large hard bullet doesn't need to expand as it starts off large enough.

I shoot HTWW in handguns and rifles and don't have problems with leading at typical reasonable velocities but then I shoot bullets that many would consider oversized as I don't size any of them. If the loaded round chambers I load it and work up a powder charge to suit what I am shooting.

[Bret4207]

I started with the original group here back on the old Shooters board in 1997 IIRC and I've gone through all the various forms this site has taken, along with several others. There has never been, nor will there ever be I expect, a time when there aren't a huge cadre of otherwise intelligent people who are completely clueless when it comes to cast boolits, who preach "hardcast" as though it actually meant something certain and who simply cannot grasp that "Fit is King" and that's it's as simple as that.

Don't fret over the S+W board and what is said there. Use what you know to be true and don't waste your time trying to force a horse to drink.

[bhn22]

I had to give up on the S&W boards. There are some really smart people there, but they seem to confine themselves to the guns themselves. Emotions run high there at times. Some people simply don't like hearing that theres a different way to do some things, and that's where the personal challenges and attacks seem to come from. Oddly, a lot of the personal attacks seem to come from the people who are asking for help/opinions in the first place. If they don't hear what they want/expect to hear, many go ballistic.

[btroj]

To heck with hardness, I am happy to see Bret back!

[theperfessor]

A big welcome back to Bret!

[cbrick]

Bret's Back :mrgreen: . . . You have been missed.

You are of course 100% correct, make the boolit fit the firearm it's to be fired in. "Hardcast" is an evil term in the sense that it completely misleads those trying to learn how well cast can shoot.

Welcome back Bret.

Rick

[Bret4207]

Very kind of you guys. I'm wetting my toe, so to speak. We'll see how things go.

[mdi]

I started with the original group here back on the old Shooters board in 1997 IIRC and I've gone through all the various forms this site has taken, along with several others. There has never been, nor will there ever be I expect, a time when there aren't a huge cadre of otherwise intelligent people who are completely clueless when it comes to cast boolits, who preach "hardcast" as though it actually meant something certain and who simply cannot grasp that "Fit is King" and that's it's as simple as that.

Don't fret over the S+W board and what is said there. Use what you know to be true and don't waste your time trying to force a horse to drink.

Thank you sir. Great wisdom...

[MtGun44]

"Fit is King" is back!!!!

Hope things are going well, although there was quite a dustup about gun laws out your
way . . . . .

Bill

[Bret4207]

Hey Bill! Yup, fit IS king. Haven't seen anything yet that changes Cast Boolit Rule #1!!!

[Uncle R.]

A big welcome back to Bret!

Yes indeed.

Uncle R.

[Char-Gar]

I started with the original group here back on the old Shooters board in 1997 IIRC and I've gone through all the various forms this site has taken, along with several others. There has never been, nor will there ever be I expect, a time when there aren't a huge cadre of otherwise intelligent people who are completely clueless when it comes to cast boolits, who preach "hardcast" as though it actually meant something certain and who simply cannot grasp that "Fit is King" and that's it's as simple as that.

Don't fret over the S+W board and what is said there. Use what you know to be true and don't waste your time trying to force a horse to drink.

Amen and +1 to the content of the post.

I am very, very glad to see you back here. This place has been less without your presence.