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View Full Version : Cast bullets in a 22cal PCP?



Little Doc
10-12-2013, 09:21 PM
wanting to cast bullets for a 22 pcp (do not have one at this time) I hear if modified to shoot cast they will not shoot pellets well. How well do these guns shoot cast? anyone with experience? I know some have choked bbls and others do not. if a choked bbl should it be changed to a different bbl. How would a non choked bbl shoot.
Guess the real question here is do 22cal pcp shoot cast well with the correct bullet? Anyone got any info or experience here.
thanks
m

melloairman
10-12-2013, 10:08 PM
wanting to cast bullets for a 22 pcp (do not have one at this time) I hear if modified to shoot cast they will not shoot pellets well. How well do these guns shoot cast? anyone with experience? I know some have choked bbls and others do not. if a choked bbl should it be changed to a different bbl. How would a non choked bbl shoot.
Guess the real question here is do 22cal pcp shoot cast well with the correct bullet? Anyone got any info or experience here.
thanks
m
Doc any caliber will shoot cast bullets well if things are done right . I shoot cast bullets in choked barrels in 25 caliber with good results . But it took time to get it all worked out .Many say it can not be done . But they do not take the time to work things out .Just like many do not take the time to work out their ammo for PB . If you understand what a choked barrel does . And if you slug both ends of the barrel . know the twist of the barrel . Alloy your lead to get the right plastic and elasticity for your bullet . And have a balanced bullet then things will come together . GL Marvin

Little Doc
10-13-2013, 01:42 PM
had rather cast my own if they will be as accurate. thinking a 22 would be most air conservative. don't see much of anyone casting for the 22 cal. a few for the 25. thanks for the info.
m

Pakprotector
10-16-2013, 03:59 PM
I am rigging a 22 to shoot cast. Staring life as a 22 Marauder, and it is getting a .224 Hornet barrel( a liner for the PB folks ) from TJ's. Should be done soon...:) Planning on 22 LR energy; ~90 FPE give or take.
cheers,
Douglas

Multigunner
10-16-2013, 05:57 PM
Seems to me that the more powerful PCP rifles at full power would blow the skirt out of the standard .22 air rifle pellet. You'd just about have to use either swaged or cast Boolits with those rifles, or possibly .22 round ball.
Probably not an issue with limited joule UK air rifles.

Even my old Crosman 38C CO2 revolver would balloon the skirts of some of the older .22 pellets made from very soft lead.

MT Chambers
10-16-2013, 11:05 PM
Seems to me that the only prob. with pellets in powerful pcp rifles is that the pellets become unstable at approx. 1100fps., this has been shown on youtube a few times in slo-mo.

willyboy
10-26-2013, 07:00 PM
anyone know where to find a .22 mold?

melloairman
10-26-2013, 09:26 PM
anyone know where to find a .22 mold?
Try
http://lbtmoulds.com/contactus.shtml
Marvin

MT Chambers
10-27-2013, 12:52 AM
I agree, Veral Smith seems to be the most accomplished mold maker that has taken an interest in molds for airguns, and I would highly recommend him.

Pakprotector
10-29-2013, 09:01 AM
If you go t Veral for a mold, consider a barrel from Jim Gaska at marmot Militia Machine Works. Jim sells unchoked, .22 pellet barrels, and a mold to fit them from Veral would work quite well I think. Chambering details will of course vary, thogh I suspect you'll lose less with a pellet in a boolit chamber than the reverse. Jim's are hammer forged by TJ's and are of 4130, so a decent step up in barrel durability among others I think.
cheers,
Douglas

Merc41
11-01-2013, 07:49 PM
You guys interested in pellet molds may give this link a try. I found the reading very interesting. Although I don't have the readily available funds for this project, I hope to give it a try one day.

http://airgunpelletmaker.weebly.com/

HollowPoint
11-01-2013, 08:30 PM
Just this morning I was looking over the Night Owl Enterprise's 22 caliber bullet mold inventory. They have a .22 caliber mold listed that casts a 37 grain bullet.

If I do a couple of minor alterations to that mold I believe the weight can be brought down to 29 or 30 grains or more while still retaining it's original lube grooves to minimize the friction as it moves down the barrel. Depending on your bore dimensions it can be sized down to an exact fit for anyone's particular .22 cal air gun.

I was thinking of getting one and hollow pointing the nose so I can then swage a rebated hollow-base boat-tail onto the heel and squish the nose down just a bit so as to give it the shape of a small lead football. Hollow pointing the nose will be what lightens the weight down.

At 37 grains I might even be able to cast them out of Hot-Melt-Glue just to see how they fly in their intended shape. I'm sure that the Hot-Melt-Glue weight will be substantially less.

It would really be something If they would shoot well as a Hot-Glue bullet in their original as-cast shape design; at least out to 25 yards before velocity drops to safer back yard residential area levels.

HollowPoint

melloairman
11-01-2013, 10:13 PM
25 caliber is as small as I go and LBT has made my molds for me and might be able to do .22 . Some one out there is making the molds for Bob other than LBT . Marvin
http://mrhollowpoint.com/6722.html

MT Chambers
11-02-2013, 12:13 AM
That NOE mold was a GC design and was avail. with a hollow point option which took bullet weight down to 34 grs. depending on alloy...now the uncertainty.....that bullet drops at .225" and are most airguns not .221" or so? I don't know if the bullet will take that much sizing, I'd have to try, but all mine are cast hard for my .218 Mashburn Bee.

HollowPoint
11-02-2013, 11:04 AM
That NOE mold was a GC design and was avail. with a hollow point option which took bullet weight down to 34 grs. depending on alloy...now the uncertainty.....that bullet drops at .225" and are most airguns not .221" or so? I don't know if the bullet will take that much sizing, I'd have to try, but all mine are cast hard for my .218 Mashburn Bee.

I've never slugged an air rifle bore but the .221" sounds about right. Each one of NOE's cast bullet designs also includes a small dimensional drawing that you can use to calculate with.

I suck at math but it looks like if you size it down to .221-222" there will still be enough of a grease groove left to sufficiently cut down on the friction so as not to slow it down in any substantial way. It's aerodynamically superior to conventional pellets so in the long run, even a little friction down the bore should still equate to more velocity and retained energy down range.

I didn't know it was available as a hollow point. That would mean that's one less thing to mess with; I mean, other than using a fatter hollow point pin to further bring down the weight.

HollowPoint

rsterne
11-05-2013, 12:21 PM
Airgun barrels in .22 cal are typically 0.217" groove and about 0.213" land, but they vary a LOT.... Most recent Crosman barrels are a lot bigger, as are the Korean barrels.... but you will find that quality barrels such as Lothar Walther will measure about as stated.... With the typical .22 PB bullet dropping at 0.224"-0.226" (even rimfire bullets are 0.222"-0.223") you will virtually have to hammer them into the chamber, they simply won't shoot properly.... There is no reason a custom mold maker such as Veral couldn't make a mold to your barrel diameter, but many airguns have an extremely short chamber that would have to be increased in length to be able to seat a bullet properly.... If you don't do that, you may be treated to breaking off your bolt handle trying to chamber even a properly sized bullet.... The same thing applies to the .25 cal airgun barrel, which is 0.250" groove and 0.243"-0.245" lands with one exception.... RCBS makes a mold for a 50 gr. bullets for the .25 ACP pistol that can work.... Other PB bullets are typically 0.257" groove diameter.... You will also have to ***** the twist of your barrel to make sure it is fast enough for the length bullet you choose....

Bob

Pakprotector
11-14-2013, 02:19 PM
TJ is alos running a .22 pellet barrel that is just about what Bob lists as nominal pellet size. I'd still just get a boolit shooting barrel and be done with it( which is exactly what I am doing ). No need to worry about how far a boolit dropped around .226 needs to be sized for a .2238 groove barrel...a .224 sizer will be fine...LOL
cheers,
Douglas

HollowPoint
11-14-2013, 07:37 PM
I went ahead and bought that NOE 37 grain bullet mold. Right now I'm just waiting for the reamer I ordered so I can make a sizing die to bring the diameter down to .21875".

I did a chamber cast of my new break-barrel 22 cal and the cerrosafe I used initially measured just under .219". The following day that same chamber cast measured almost exactly .22". I found out after the fact that cerrosafe tends to expand with time.

The reamer I ordered is 7/32" which equals .21875". That should be just about right for initial testing. Then I can move on to making a swaging die to get it to the exact profile of my chamber.

I hollow pointed one of the little bullet out of this new mold just to see how much lighter I could get it with a deep hollow point cavity. Using near pure lead, I was able to get the weight down to 30 grains. I think if I use lead alloy I can bring the weight down a tad more.

HollowPoint

Airweaver
12-19-2013, 08:07 PM
MT Chambers was right at post #14.
Trust me...you are wasting your time...never size down a bullet more than .003" for an airgun barrel.they just differ from firearm barrels because they are designed for pellets regardless if being called .22 at both cases .
That means you need a firearm bullet which designed for firearm barrel and an airgun "bullet"aka pellet which designed to fit on airgun barrel.
If you want to act opposite just find something away from the shelf with exact dimensions in order fit your barrel.

This expert discussion may gives the answer your looking for if insist make that NOE 37 grain bullet work..

http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26044

IMAO you just need something which have a snug fitting right out of the mold if you don't want being in trouble and the answer you are looking for, is simplier and it's not far away ...it's right here on this forum.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?166188-Mihec-22-for-air-rifles

Right now i m the only one know about results from this design but time will tell if i was right once this GB will be closed.
Obviously this is gonna happen soon considering Miha's reply i received 2 weeks ago....very soon!!!

rsterne
12-20-2013, 09:12 PM
Is that GB bullet really 0.221".... If so, how will it work in typical airguns barrels at 0.217".... Will you even be able to chamber it without sizing?....

Bob

Pakprotector
12-20-2013, 10:40 PM
The NOE 225107 I have drops at nearly .226, and weighs nearly 40 gr with mostly lead...down to 39 gr with 4% Tin.
cheers,
Douglas

rsterne
12-20-2013, 11:11 PM
I was talking about the Group Buy mold listed in Post #19 above.... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?166188-Mihec-22-for-air-rifles

The drawing is hard to read, but it looks like 5.62mm to me, which is 0.221".... way too big for a .217" airgun barrel, IMO....

Bob

Airweaver
12-21-2013, 11:19 AM
Explanation was given to the thread transferred by the link you posted.

Pakprotector
12-21-2013, 08:13 PM
Explanation was given to the thread transferred by the link you posted.

So, I am curious...and I ran through that thread, but how do you plan to have this work in a .217/.214 groove/land barrel the pellet barrels are built to? There being a possible exception of the Korean stuff...but you mentioned HW and LW. I have tried shooting .226 boolits in a .224 barrel( the groove dia ), and did not shoot a second.
cheers,
Douglas

Airweaver
12-22-2013, 02:33 PM
I plan nothing..I just test it at 4 different guns with LW barrels and works.One of them have a polygonal barrel.Bullet is a little bit tighter than conversionals but shoots almost the same on a different POI..it just leading quicker than conversionals.
Hw's are not the same but they are very close on LW's in size.Did you slugged anyone of them?
Maybe it's your understanding while i m not good as an Engish speaker and maybe i give wrong explanation instead what i m trying to say but i have the filing you do not understand things i m trying to explain on my bullet thread...Please give it one more try and read carefully...It's me or i have the impression that i was clear enought?...I found that always i m answering the same question..it just being asked differently.

About your .224 barrel..
..Did you tried sizing down to .225?
What kind of barrel are we talking about?
Brand,Choked ,unckoked....?
what velocity?what bullet(weight),twist ratio,bullet length?
LW barrels are rated as 17.7/1 so if your barrel is a LW and your bullet is over 10mm in length,then i understand why will not shoot second shot..you do need 1/14 for a 10-11mm bullet depents the nose shape.
Also for cast bullets you need always something at least around 900fps....Bullets are not pellets.Skirt drag is not the factor that give them stability.They need homogeneity,speed,length-weight balance,center of gravity to the right point,smoothness to the friction and always behind the stock must be a monkey who is able to hit the target ...and the God damn Monkey at post #27 of my discussion thread...IT'S ME .

Pakprotector
12-24-2013, 10:15 PM
The barrel is a .224 groove/.219 land, 14" twist, hammer forged TJ. Nothing from 30 to 50 gr shoots differently...accuracy is about the same. Velocities are 900+ in all cases. .225 sizing shoot no differently than those at .224 or even .223.

How do you cram a .221 into a .217? Hammer?
cheers,
Douglas

Airweaver
12-26-2013, 03:31 AM
WEIRB!!! Try another bullet.
what is your gun?Are you sure is everything Ok about the gun?
Do you reinstall the old barrel and shoot some pellets?
Maybe something is wrong during the new barrel installation.
For example you need to tight screws on a Airforce's barrel bushing if you won't accuracy issues.There are other thing to take care about ...I just mention one of them.



How do you cram a .221 into a .217? Hammer?
cheers,
Douglas
Forget it .
I m only talking about LW barrels or similars.
LW barrel size is the one i described.
Now tell me what brand of airguns do have .217 barrels ?I thought 70% of them use LW barrels,always Referring to manufacturers specs.
Yesterday after we talked each other i slugged all my buddies guns for sure....You know what?..that .217 is just your imagination...As a land diameter maybe,but i really dump if exist as a bore groove diameter.

Anyway Mr.Gerb Walther was right...5.62groove/5.46 land and -0.04mm undersized to the choke area.Use a micrometer not a crappy caliber and you will find i was right.
If that .217 is a fact then please do not try my bullet.I wouldn't take the responsibility for that size.

detox
01-03-2014, 11:46 PM
Wouldn't swaging work better...i am sure it has been done. I think casting a little pellet would be difficult to keep mould hot enough to cast.