Accuracy Trouble with 44 Mag Single Shot Rifle

[tappedandtagged]

I've been loading for 2 years now. Started reloaing for my S&W 629 as a cost effective way to stay on the range with factory ammo costing 80 cents a round. I have been loading Missouri Bullet 240 SWC (plain/bevel base) at an advertised 18 brinell with great results in my 3" revolver. Minimal leading at full throttle using AA #9.

From the begining I knew I wanted to add a 44 mag rifle to shoot along my 629. Recently I found a CVA Scout break action 44 mag rifle in stock at a local Academy Sports. The 22" barrel slugged at .427" and has a 1:20 twist.

I went to the range with my reloads using AA9 starting at the minimum charge going up to the max in 0.3 grain incriments with 5 loaded at each charge weight. It seems that out of five shots, only 2 or 3 would land close to each other at 75 yards. Then the shots would go high and left, or low and right etc... Mounting another scope did no good either and the best load was ~6" at 75 yards. The loads chony'ed ~1500-1675 fps.

I understand that these velocities are generally gas check territory, but seeing as I got virtually no leading, I figured I was good to go without gas checks.

So, a few questions. Keep in mind that I am not new to reloading, just new to cast boolits in a rifle. I have loaded cast for 5 different revolvers varying bullet hardness for each application. I have also developed very accurate rifle rounds for my AR and a couple bolt guns and one lever gun using jacketed bullets. I fully admit I have a lot to learn in the area of cast boolits.

Anyway, on to the questions:

Will a gas checked bullet help my accuracy? If yes, how? I can't wrap my head around how accuracy can suffer so much if I'm not getting a lot of leading.

Can I still get good accuracy with the PB boolit if I slow it down? If yes, what velocity should I aim for? I have a good supply of Unique on hand.

Since I don't cast (yet, those molds are high!) anyone have a good source of GC boolits that don't cost more than j-words?

Sorry for the long post. I wanted to make sure the I had all the relavent info included.

[Goatwhiskers]

You didn't say, but I presume that the boolits are the correct size to give you 1 or 2 thousandths over groove size so that's taken care of. First thing, make sure that the locking bolt and shelf are clean and DRY. After that it's probably forend problems. I would suggest that you read the FAQ in the Handi forums on the graybeard site. Yeah I know you have CVA but the principles are the same. Single shot rifles can be contrary and the break open types have their won peculiarities. Hope this helps. GW

[Larry Gibson]

The problem is no doubt one of the PB/BB'd cast being driven at 1500 + fps. Indeed slow it down. I've found with a good cast FB'd cast that accuracy at 1500+ fps is possible but never had good accuracy above 1400 fps +/- out of several .44 Mag rifles with BB's commercial cast. Start at 8 gr Unique and work up to 11 gr with that bullet. You will probably find a loads in that range that are accurate and at some point accuracy will again go south. You will find the accurate load in the rifle will be accurate in the revolver also and pleasant to shoot.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Just too fast for the boolit. With a 1 in 20" twist and the rifle capable of higher velocities I would lean to 300 gr and up. You will still exceed the velocity a heavy boolit needs for accuracy if you push them too hard.
The bevel base has never been a proven shooter either. The loss of that little amount of drive band makes the boolit shorter for the rifling. You need to shoot them slower.

[Shuz]

As others have said.......slow it down. I have a 16" bbl'd Winchester Trapper in .44 mag and it groups plain based Mihec 503 clones very well with 8.3g of Green Dot. Velocity was 1194 with an SD of 11. 3 five shot groups at 50 meters measured between a low of .9" with one "all in one hole" group, to a high of 2.0", where all 5 shots could be seen.

[runfiverun]

i'd look at the throat, cva's have a pretty long throat in them and the 427 measurement is telling me you have a tight spot messing things up for you.
find that tight spot.

[Harry O]

My experience is that you lose accuracy before you get leading when the bullet is failing. Depending on seeing leading is not proof the bullet can handle the speed and pressure. You need a harder bullet, a gas-check, or slower speed (less pressure).

[tappedandtagged]

Goatwhiskers- the barrel slugged at .427. Boolits are .430. Also, the thing shoots j-words well. I just didn't buy it for that reeason. I wanted it so I'd have a in-expensive plinker to shoot cast out of.

Larry- thanks for the input. I actually have some loads I made up last night from 7.5-10.4 grains of Unique that I'm about to go try.

44 man- I have noticed that the 1:20 twist is faster than most. The 300 grain pills are on the "to try" list.

runfiverrun- good to see you on this board. I'm assuming you're the same one from gunandgame. And yes, the throat is long. I didn't do a chamber cast, but I did put a fired case in the gun with a bullet seated (Hornady XTP) and closed the action. The bullet was only about 1/2 way seated to the cannelure when I extracted it. Also, if I find a tight spot, how do I go about removing it? Its a $210 gun, I don't want to dump $200 into it in the form of gunsmith fees.

HarryO- thanks for the insight on accuracy loss before leading. I don't understand it, but it seems to be the general consensus. I'll caulk it up to "its that way because it is" and not worry anymore about a scientific explanation, lol.

Thanks everyone for the input. I'll report back on how the rifle shoots when I get to the range (about to run now before I have to go to work). I have the following loads to try out:

Factory 44 spl Blazer with a 200 grain Gold Dot
Factory 44 spl 200 grain Winchester Silvertips
Factory 44 mag Reminton 240 grain SJSP
Handloaded 240 XTP in Winchester brass on top of 18.5 grains of AA#9- which proved to be accuarte in previous testing- at least until I damaged the crown. Its been re-cut since.
And 240 CSWC loaded over a range of Unique maxing out at 10.4 grains. I'm hoping this keeps me below 1,400 fps.

[uaskme]

Rifles can be a challenge. You will learn a lot by the time you get it to shoot.

[tappedandtagged]

Well.....I started off by getting it zeroed at 25 yards. I then moved it out to 75 yards, which is where I want it zeroed. I shot a few more to get it zeroed in (using Factory 240 jacketed ammo). Then I let the barrel cool and shot a 3 shot group. It was around 2" at 75 yards. Not the best, but satisfactory for a 125 yard gun.

I then shot the Blazer 44 specials. The "group" was non existent. Moved on to my handloads of Hornady XTPs 240's. The first shot landed about an inch left and 5" high. Not bad since I expected a POI shift from the factory ammo. The second shot was 1" high and 1/2" left. Third shot landed almost smack in between the first two shots. The third shot was 1/2" high and 4" left. I stopped, let the barrel cool and shot two more rounds. The 4th shot was right within 1/2" of the first shot. The 5th shot was right within an 1" of the second shot. Hmmm....

I cleaned the gun and tried factory ammo again after ensuring the barrel was cool. Three shots within 2-1/2" so I decided to try my powder puff cast loads.

First two loaded with 7.5 grains of Unique landed next to each other making an oval in the cardboard. I started to get excited. Third shot was way high left. Remaining shots landed all over the place with about a 6-7" "group." This load is 2.5 grains below Lyman's 49th starting load. It was slow enough that I could hear the bullet smack the target about 1/2 second after the shot, then I could hear it hitting the berm at 100 yards (25 yards past the target). I couldn't see any signs of leading at all.

Overall, I wanted this gun as a fun gun to shoot the same ammo as my revolver. I now see that I'm not going to be able to do that with it. If anyone wants it, I'm asking $200 for it!

[gwpercle]

I have allways been told to clean J word fouling out before shooting cast boolits, might try that.

If the crown is in good shape and all the stock and scope mount screws are tight, then the rifle is possesed by the devil and an exorcisim is needed. If you live in Louisiana a Voo-Doo Priestess might be able to un-curse it for you. Otherwise the sale might be best. This stuff is what gives reloaders/casters grey hair.
Gary

[uaskme]

I would check to see how it shot with a cold barrel a few times. If it groups 2 shots with a cold barrel you are good to go. Might be temperature sensitive. I have a Encore that I got a 308 barrel for. It wouldn't shoot cast or jacketed. I took a 20ga shotgun shell hull, cut it into spacers. Punched holes in it with a leather punch for the forearm screws and pretty much floated the barrel. Finally got it to shoot an inch at a 100 with cast.

[tappedandtagged]

I have allways been told to clean J word fouling out before shooting cast boolits, might try that.

If the crown is in good shape and all the stock and scope mount screws are tight, then the rifle is possesed by the devil and an exorcisim is needed. If you live in Louisiana a Voo-Doo Priestess might be able to un-curse it for you. Otherwise the sale might be best. This stuff is what gives reloaders/casters grey hair.
Gary

I do live 30 minutes from Louisiana. How much should I look to pay for a voodoo cleansing of this infernal thing??

And uaskme, with the scope base (of a different metal) being directly attached to the barrel I do think temp sensitivity might have something to do with it as well. But since I bought it for a plinker primarily I have no use for the thing. Off to the sale barn.

[rondog]

I see several references here and in other threads to "j-words", what's that mean?

[Goatwhiskers]

J-word refers to those projectiles that have a layer of copper wrapped over the lead core, a (jacket) that we don't talk about on a cast boolit forum. A metallic condom if you prefer instead of a natural lead boolit, commonly called "bullets" among the unknowing. GW

[Larry Gibson]

tappedandtagged

Just out of curiosity; what kind of rest are you using and in particular where is the fore end rested?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

tappedandtagged

Just out of curiosity; what kind of rest are you using and in particular how/where is the fore end rested?

Larry Gibson

[tappedandtagged]

Larry, I'm using "sand" bags I made filled with small plastic beads I bought at a craft store intended for use in making beanie babies. I placed one bag unde my butstock and rested the forend on the other about midway. I was sure to try to keep the pressure on the fore end consistent.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

[smilie=b:Man O man, I wish you all the good luck.....

[rondog]

I have a bunch of 240gr. LSWC .44 cast bullets I bought from a commercial seller, they have beveled bases also. They don't shoot worth a damn in my Winchester Trapper. I was trying to sight it in for deer hunting, and they were hitting all over the paper. Switched to Silvertip hollowpoints, and they grouped in the size of a playing card.

FWIW - I have a Lyman #4 casting book, and it mentions that cast bullet bases work better if they're flat with sharp edges....true?

I was thinking about selling them or melting them down, but y'all say they might be OK with light loads?

Thanks for the clarification of "J-words", I wondered if that's what it meant.

[44man]

Get a bottle of Butch's Bore Shine, works wonders in a bore. Or use your regular solvent and Sweet's to remove copper.
However I see the tend to go TOO slow. The 1 in 20" to 1 in 25" is proper for a .44 rifle but you still need to find stability.
The 1 in 20" moves the velocity/stability window BACK but you can't go below it either, that is worse then over spin.
I would be inclined to try HS-6 or HS-7 powder and work loads to see. Or work up the Unique, you still have a lot of room there. I would not be working the light boolit in a rifle with AA 9, H110 or 296. But for a 300 gr+ they should come in.
Next, get rid of the magnum primer and see what you get. I use nothing but a Fed 150 in the .44 with ANY powder.

[tappedandtagged]

44man, actually I have never used Magnum primers for my 44 mag (unless you count Winchester which is "dual"). For these tests I've been using CCI 300 standard LP primers.

I'm going to give the rifle one more go. I took off the integrated scope base/ring combo and put on a good old fashion weaver rail on it. Topped it off with Luepold rifleman rings and a 3-9X40 scope. I'm hoping this will help mitigate some of its temperature sensitivity. For now, I'm going to see if I can get it shooting with j-words. After I get it shooting with jacketed, I'll start cast again with 300 grain boolits.

This is all considering that I don't get frustrated to the point that I throw the darn thing in my pond.

[HeavyMetal]

Not familiar with this particular rifle but I will suggest that you remove the fore end, if you can, and try a 3 shot group minus the fore end.

It was a very reveiling 1/2 hour witrh my Ruger number 1, LOL!

[JohnH]

I could go on at length about the troubles I've had getting NEF single shot 44 mags to shoot at speeds above 1300 fps. Since you seem to have a good understanding of the problem, I'll move to other points. Most likely the most important thing to get ones head wrapped around is the question of just how fast is fast enough. I drove myself silly trying to get above 1300 fps with an NEF I had some years back with a plain base boolit and it just wouldn't get there. As ridiculous as this may sound, 1250 fps gave me sub 2" groups at 75 yards all day long. It was monotonous. Jack it up to 1400 and groups took on all the wonderful appearance of buckshot patterns. As I began to think on it, the rifle that won the west was a Winchester Model 1873 chambered in 44-40. It drove a 200 grain boolit to a grand speed of 1300 fps... on a good day. One other piece of info that came to mind was Elmers Keiths statement he considered a 250 grainer at 1200 fps from a 4 inch barrel sufficient to the cause. I've since killed four deer with my NEF using a 250 grain boolit at 1250 and am looking at hunting using a Contender driving that same boolit at about 1100 fps. I'm 55 now, my hands are arthritic and I just can't take the pounding I once could... but more important I've learned that deer don't take near as much killing as I would have once thought. I've also come to a place where enjoyment is far more important than other details. So if I have a load that is adequate to the task, and I can shoot it without pain, these days that's where I stay at. I've long since traded that first NEF for other things, but acquired another one in a trade with friend. This one doesn't shoot as well as my first, but will break clays all day at 50 yards off hand using 7 grains of Red Dot and a 200 grain boolit. That is really as well as I can shoot off hand, and better accuracy wouldn't help me. The hard honest straight up is that these inexpensive single shots ain't target rifles, and expecting them to be such will lead to many hours uselessly spent. I ain't saying lower your sights, I am saying be realistic about your expectations of the gun, and work within the limits of the rifle. If those limits are not up to your expectations, that's ok, sell it and move on to things that do meet it, but slower ain't nessicarily a bad thing.

[tappedandtagged]

JohnH, I tried 7.5-10.4 grains of Unique already. Those were 120-1350 fps. Didn't do ay better with that. Not even doing good with factory jacketed.

After an hour on the phone with Goatwhiskers today, I'm going to try a few more tricks to see if I can do something. CVA's gunsmith got it shooting just over an inch at 100 with factory 300 grain Hornady, so I assume the gun will shoot. I just haven't figured it out yet.

[uaskme]

Take the forearm off and shoot factory ammo. I dont think you realize how important forearm bedding is to a break down gun. Do that and if that is the problem you can float it.

[jgt]

When bevel based bullets first started to show up for sale I unknowingly bought a box of five hundred of them. When my known load wouldn't group I took a closer look at the bullets I had purchased and discovered the new-to-me beveled base. I promptly dumped them into my lead pot and recast them into a lyman 429421 mold and they shot great. I made a promise to myself to never mess with BB bullets again and I kept that promise.

[curator]

I'm with JGT, Bevel base boolits suk, particularly when you push them over 1000 fps. While I am not a big fan of any of the Lee moulds made for the .44 RemMag, boolits reasonably well cast from them will give much better accuracy than any bevel-base slug in a pistol-caliber carbine. Most reloaders don't shoot handguns well enough or off a good rest to really shot how accurate their loads are. Bevel base slugs work great on 15 yard human-silhouette targets from a standing 2-handed position with a pistol. Not one of my rifles will shoot them with any kind of consistent accuracy.

[tappedandtagged]

Well, this is how it shot with 240 XTP's over a range of AA9. After each 3 shot "group" I would place tape over the shots. For this pic, I took all the tape off. The three shots that are near each other just to the bottom left of the target dot were two " first" shots and one second shot in different strings of three. I ensured the barrel was completly cool before each string of three. And there aren't any actual groups. One shot from in string would high right, then lw left and one in between with a few that were just way out.

I have no idea why this is happening. With 240 Remington factory I got a 5" horizontal string. 1st was left, then right then one pretty much in the middle of the two. Vertical difference was around an inch. Much better, but not satisfactory. I called CVA again and they offered to send me a shipping label to send it back.
http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz121/zlwhite/C155DF74-820D-424D-A2CB-A786545300A2-1603-0000029DB5F09216_zps8a270550.jpg (http://s820.photobucket.com/user/zlwhite/media/C155DF74-820D-424D-A2CB-A786545300A2-1603-0000029DB5F09216_zps8a270550.jpg.html)

[Boyscout]

Here is a 50 yd. group with Lyman gas checked, 250 gn Devastator (263 gn BHN 12, WW +2% tin) with 22.5 gn Win 296, CCI 350 out of a NEF 44 Rem mag at 50 yards. The group is 0.75". I get similar results with the Lee C429-240 with 21 gns of Win 296 behind them. Both get a strong roll crimp seated to the crimping groove.

84371

[Char-Gar]

Yep, what you experienced is the normal experience. All things being equal the extra velocity picked up in the rifle barrel will necessitate the use of a gas check, a jacketed bullet, or a slow down.

There are ways to get around this with base wads or poly fillers, but that is the hard way to get there.

[tappedandtagged]

Yep, what you experienced is the normal experience. All things being equal the extra velocity picked up in the rifle barrel will necessitate the use of a gas check, a jacketed bullet, or a slow down.

There are ways to get around this with base wads or poly fillers, but that is the hard way to get there.

The picture of the shotgun like grouping was jacketed. This gun just won't shoot anything.

[Char-Gar]

The picture of the shotgun like grouping was jacketed. This gun just won't shoot anything.

OK..You got me. Throw the rifle in a deep river and give up. The only 44 Magnum rifle I own is a Marlin 1894 and it will shoot very well with either cast or jacketed.

[dondiego]

There was a cast bullet forum at one time - Greybeard??? The moderator would not allow you to say jacketed bullet. It really bothered me too. I say jacketed bullet here whenever I feel like it. Jacketed bullets are your friend............they just live in the rich part of town and are a little snobbish. Not any better at all, they just think that they are.

Sorry I intended to reply to post #14.

Don

[tappedandtagged]

Before investing in a mold and lead to cast my own GC'ed boolits, I figured I would see if the gun would shoot j-words first. When I saw they wouldn't, I gave up on the gun ever shooting cast, gas checked or not. The gun is now sold. The new owner was told of the issues I was getting using re-loads and didn't care. He intends to shoot factory only which actually gave me decent results.

Anyway. Thanks for everone's advice and support in my venture to get my gun to shoot. I'm sad to say I gave up and sold it for a $16 loss.

[Shawn2571]

I just got mine today and it does the same thing. 4" group at 25 yards. With my super Redhawk loads made up of a 240 grain semi wad cutter and 18.5 grains of Accurate #9. A real shame too because the rifle has the best trigger I've ever had the pleasure of pulling. I will get some 300 grainers and try seating them out a bit further and see what happens? If not I'll just throw knives at the deer be about the same level of accuracy. Lol

[ohiomadman]

I am glad to see this old thread, kinda. I have been going to get a CVA in 44mag to replace my Puma that I can not see the sights on it very good.
Now I am not sure about getting it. Does anyone have a CVA 44mag that shoots good?

[murf205]

When bevel based bullets first started to show up for sale I unknowingly bought a box of five hundred of them. When my known load wouldn't group I took a closer look at the bullets I had purchased and discovered the new-to-me beveled base. I promptly dumped them into my lead pot and recast them into a lyman 429421 mold and they shot great. I made a promise to myself to never mess with BB bullets again and I kept that promise.

Ditto that sentiment. I dumped a 500 count box into my pot with about 2 oz of tin and poured the same 429421 boolit and mine shot great as well. No more bevel base boolits again for me. I tried the darned things is 4 different 44's and they wouldn't hit a bull in the butt, while the sharp base of the 429421 shot lights out in 3 of the 4 44's and pretty fair in the 4th one. (However the 4th one is no tack driver with anything)

[mdi]

Givin' up so soon? How many different powders have you tried. Try a faster powder or a slower powder? Try softer bullets? Different style/weight bullets? Different diameter bullets? (.427" sounds more like a 44-40 barrel, and SAAMI for rifle barrels is .431"). If you're trying to use the exact same load that you use in your handgun, you prolly won't get good results. I have five .44 Magnums and the handguns can share loads with good results, but the rifle doesn't care for any handgun loads.

Ranch Dog has designed some really accurate bullets and I use his 240 gr. for my handguns and his 265 gr bullets in my Puma (after a couple years of fiddlin' to find "the load").

OOPS! Didn't see the date... :oops:

[Rick Hodges]

I am glad to see this old thread, kinda. I have been going to get a CVA in 44mag to replace my Puma that I can not see the sights on it very good.
Now I am not sure about getting it. Does anyone have a CVA 44mag that shoots good?

I have a CVA Scout2 in 44 mag. It shoots pretty well with minimal load development. 240gr. Horn. J-words over a stiff load of WW296 for 1775 fps and 1" groups at 50 yds.
The NOE 235 gr. boolet with aluminum gas check prints to almost the same point of aim over 18 Gr. of 2400 at 1640 fps with 1 1/2-2" groups at 50yds.
I haven't worked with is since...but am sure I can improve on this.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Most agree that 1500 fps is about the top velocity a plain based boolit can survive.

The reason is the base of the Boolit gets distorted.(trailing edge burnt)

Simple as that, and we all know that the rear end is the steering end of a boolit, thus any alteration of it has negative results.

Just slowing down to around 1400 FPS will usually change the results dramatically for the better.

Also slower burning powders work better in rifles. H110/W296, 2400, AA9 but are better served in faster loads in the 1600 FPS range with Gas Checked Boolits.

The 8 gr of Unique with a 250 gr 429421 is a good place to start for a PB Boolit. Nice mid range load that also works well in Magnum Revolvers.

As someone stated above the Nominal Groove Diameter for a .44 Magnum Rifle is .431 and then add or subtract from that (+/-) .002 and still be within tolerance. So if your barrel is on size at .431 a .432 boolit would be the correct fit.

The reason why Rifle Barrels are larger than Revolver Barrels is because the Rifle has a closed and locked Breach, and thus must contain all the pressure until the boolit leaves the barrel. A Revolver has a gap between the cylinder and barrels which relieves some of the pressure. So the rifle barrels were opened up slightly to cope with the pressure difference.

Randy

[Three Bears]

Does anyone have a good grouping CVA V2 44 mag. yet?