The "Inscrutable" Cast Softpoint EXPANSION TEST

[BruceB]

This post is the introduction to a firing test to be carried-out within a week. I'm pretty confident of the timing, since most of the ammo is loaded, the recovery box is complete, and the 'stopping medium' is identified and available.

This is purely a test to see how my cast softpoints compare for terminal expansion with a bullet whose performance I know intimately ON GAME ANIMALS. This "control" bullet is the .30-caliber 180-grain Nosler Partition, and it will be fired into the box at 2500 fps to represent the impact velocity from a .300 or .30-06 at some distance off the muzzle. Comparing how it looks from the box, to how it looked when recovered from moose and caribou, should give me an inkling of how well or poorly the cast softpoints will fare against animals. Bullshop's recent experience on a moose with a 50/50 (soft/hard) softpoint is also an invaluable clue (it was AWESOME!).

ALL the bullets to be tested are built on a 1/3-soft to 2/3-WW (harder) formula, and all are aircooled from the mould. This is subject to assessment and change if needed, but I believe it's close to the right proportions.

The loads are picked to reflect realistic field impact speeds, although in the case of the .416 Rigby I have loaded both a muzzle-velocity-impact test (365@2050 fps) AND a lower-speed test at 1700 fps to see how a bit of distance might affect things.

Right now, the list to be tested includes:

-311299 at 1800 fps

-.338-220 LEE at 1800 fps, with several identical rounds to test the consistency of the expansion

-.416-365 RCBS at 2050 fps, several rounds to check consistency as in .338 above

-.416-365 at 1700 fps

-.459 LEE 420-grain hollow-base at 1500 fps (my chosen max speed for the Shiloh .45-70 in most of my shooting)

-.459 SAECO #021GC spirepoint, 420 grains at 1500 fps for the same reason. I'm very curious to see how the spirepoint will upset, compared to the round-nosed Lee bullet. The lower velocity may prove interesting vis-a-vis expansion or not, as well.

If time permits, I may expand this list a bit....I'd like to fire the .45-70s at 1800 or so just for all you Marlin .45-70 fans, for one thing. Perhaps some water-quenched softpoints for direct comparison may be added, if I can find time to cast a few.

The speeds above were chosen to reflect the impact speed at practical ranges. The .30 and .338 are very likely to be loaded for CAST-BULLET hunting at muzzle velocities over 2000 fps, so 1800 fps should show what the bullet will do from 100 yards or so.

Now, the test:

The recovery box is made of plywood on a frame of 1x2 lumber, glued- and screwed-together with drywall screws no more than about four inches apart on all seams. It's one foot square and five feet long. The 'entry' port has a six-inch circular opening which is covered with a sheet of 1/4" gum rubber sheeting, which should be capable of sealing-up so tightly after bullet passage that no leakage will occur. The back end of the box has a 1-inch-thick pad of the same material, which should stop anything getting that far with considerable gentleness and no damage (I don't think any bullet will reach this rubber). All seams are heavily caulked inside the box with 100% silicone.

After seeing the explosive effect of the .416 softpoints on water jugs in an earlier test, I have no intention of tightly sealing the plywood lid. Instead, the lid is mounted with eight carriage bolts with their heads INSIDE the box, and the nuts and washers above the lid arranged to allow the lid at least one inch of free travel upwards. I hope this will allow sufficient pressure release while minimizing the loss of the stopping medium.

Ah, yes: the stopping medium, and the reason for "inscrutable" in the title....the stopping medium is a RICE SLURRY!

Reasons:

-rice is absolutely consistent, from batch to batch, and thus any additional tests can be considered to be comparable to this one. Also, it is AVAILABLE, even in small-town Nevada.

-in slurry form with enough water to just form a layer on top of the expanded rice, there will be no cavities left in the medium after the passage of each bullet. The slurry will fill in any temporary cavity and the bullet will just sink to somewhere below its ballistic trajectory. The following bullets will positively not encounter any voids in the medium. This is NOT the case in such things as wetpack newsprint, for example.

-testing has already shown that even in cold water, the rice is fully 'hydrated' and expanded after three hours of soaking. I will have a reserve supply of already-expanded rice on hand to replace whatever gets blown out of the box by bullets....and I'll fire the heaviest-hitting rounds last, just in case.

-all I'm asking is that my medium should present more resistance to bullet passage than plain water, and the rice will surely do that. Other possible materials considered were spuds and pinto beans, but rice is a good bit less-expensive. Even so, I'm figuring on needing at least 80 pounds of rice, which comes to about $34, plus maybe $40 for the box ....this isn't gonna be a cheap bullet test! The box will weigh around 400 pounds when ready for tests. It'll sit on the tailgate of my pickup for the shooting.

IMPORTANT: I am NOT saying that this is a realistic test to determine what my softpoint bullets will look like after encountering an animal! This is an exercise to see how MY bullets compare in a known medium to a superb game bullet, the performance of which is well-known and familiar to me, personally. Please don't try to draw conclusions here about my motives or relative sanity....please. (I already KNOW I'm a terminal nut-case, and don't really need the reminders. I just do what the loudest voice in my head tells me...)

Stay tuned for updates.

[dubber123]

Very interesting Bruce. You've got alot of calibers covered too. Using a Partition as your benchmark is good also. If you can get a home cast slug to perform any wheres near as well, I will be very impressed! Enough so I will have to try making some myself.

[wiljen]

This sounds like a great test and I look forward to reading your results, just please don't shoot your truck. If I placed a target on my tailgate I'd sneeze or something and be buying new taillights for sure.

[Bass Ackward]

Sounds like a ton of information to digest once you are all done. Nicely thought out too.

[Lloyd Smale]

bruce i have some 500 rcbs rf and 540 ballictic cast wfngcs cast out of #2 with a pure nose. If you are interested in a handfull of each to test let me know. These are allready sized to .459 if that would work for you. Pm me your address if you want to give it a try.

[Bob B]

Haveyou figured the impact difference due to rotonal speed between the high and lower velocity loads? Bob B

[waksupi]

Bruce, this sounds like a fun test. Who says there are no mad scientists around anymore?

[longbow]

Excellent idea BruceB!

I have done a little informal expansion testing and the media is always a problem due to consistency, repeatability, availability and price. I've Tried the usual ~ water, wet sawdust, end grain wood, wet paper and finally the Bullet Test Tube which works well but is expensive and tedious and only allows one shot with anything but .22 or maybe other mild smallbore.

Your rice idea is excellent and I will be looking forward to seeing your results.

Longbow

[Bullshop]

Excellent!!! I wanna be there!!!
I had an idea to use bread doe for a similer test but everytime I get a 50lb sack my family eats it up.
I was thinking that a big sausage made from a truck or tractor inertube filled with bread doe should stop most boolits. The rubber would act much like hide and the doe like soft tissue. Could be seasoned to tast with some bones. Have never taken it farther than just a thought though. There's gonna be many of us tuned in to this testing. I would shove my way to the front to be there and see if I could. It does sound like a chore getting it all together but I bet this is a chore you are gonna have fun with.
BIC/BS

[MT Gianni]

I suggest thin cardboard placed every foot will show you a print of the bullets passage without any other affects. Great fun and learning. Gianni

[Bret4207]

Bruce, you remain one of my heroes. Gotta meetcha someday!

[montana_charlie]

the stopping medium is a RICE SLURRY!
I had an idea to use bread dough.
OH, NO! Did you guys HAVE to mention FOOD?

After a few suggestions about bullet lube ingredients, you see speculation about everything from axle grease to snake oil.

Now that you guys have opened a new Pandora's box, it'll be everything from cornmeal to meatloaf!
It'll sit on the tailgate of my pickup for the shooting.
At least you'll be able to simulate shots at standing game...and animals in motion.
CM

[wdm004]

You might consider placing the recovery box on a sheet of thick polyethylene, with the poly sheet edges elevated slightly. That way you might spend less time cleaning up. Or it could be easier to recover the stopping medium between shots and reuse it. Or if the recovery box gets blown apart. You may have considered this already. Might not be fun to have to wash a load of rice slurry off/out of your truck. Don't ask me how I know ...

[Mk42gunner]

Bruce,

This sounds like an excellent way to compare bullet expansion.

I do however have some concerns about leaving the bullet trap on the tailgate of your truck. Is there anyway you could carry your slurry in five gallon buckets, or possibly a fifty five gallon barrel?

I have a vision of you coming back from the desert with a tailgate warped from hydrostatic shock.

Plus we all know about Murphy's law........


Robert

[waksupi]

I am anticipating unexpected consequences at the first shot, and would very much appreciate video posted on Utube!

[leftiye]

I suggest thin cardboard placed every foot will show you a print of the bullets passage without any other affects. Great fun and learning. Gianni

Yeah, partitions of something that doesn't dissolve in water! Otherwise you're gonna need a metal detector!

[BruceB]

So, here I sit at work, with plenty of time to consider the many good points being raised.

Hydrostatic shock is a definite factor. When I tested the .416 Rigby with cast softpoints two years ago, there were eight one-gallon el-cheapo jugs of supermarket water lined up on a fir 2x6 which was lying across a concrete benchrest. On the first shot, the closest jugs went at least 20 feet in the air, with the water itself spraying higher than that. On later inspection, the 2x6 had been split for at least six feet along its length. This is why the .416 hunting load (2050 fps) will be the LAST load tried into the box.

The rice slurry, being thicker, shouldn't fly about with quite as much enthusiasm as the water did, and the moveable lid should allow venting of a good part of the pressure. I like the idea of a plastic wrap, but I'll use a smallish blue tarp to contain the ejecta. Good idea.

My ol' F150 is sort of a beater truck, and the inside sheetmetal of the tailgate is already dished-in by some misfortune which happened before I owned it. I'm gonna place the recovery box on a wide plank across the tailgate, spanning the dished-in area, to give the plywood bottom some even support.

Gianni's mention of partitions in the box got me thinking (dangerous at the best of times). It would be difficult to sort out the various bullet-holes in the partitions (which would indeed have to be waterproof) unless they were changed after every shot. No thanks. What Gianni's idea DID create in my fevered imagination was the concept of expanding the test to include the distance of each bullet's penetration! By placing 1x2 crossmembers along the bottom of the box at six-inch intervals, I can make "compartments" into which the bullets will fall after stopping, and hence have their movements traced.

Even if the bullets don't sink to the bottom immediately after stopping, mild side-to-side rocking of the box after the shooting's over WILL cause the bullets to sink straight down for "location mapping". This will be helped along if I bail out about half of the slurry before agitating the box. Rocking a 400-pound box will be tougher than rocking one of half that weight.

I should mention that every bullet is easily identifiable, by weight, diameter, and/or being clearly marked with an electric engraver. For instance, the 1700-fps .416s are marked "17" both on the gascheck AND under the gas-check, on the base, in case the check gets lost along the way. Any UN-marked .416 will obviously be the 2050-fps bullets.

The further this goes, the better I like the ability of a slurry-type substance to "repair itself", allowing multiple rounds to be fired into the mix without worrying about successive bullets finding cavities left by the preceding ones. It occurs to me that adding some gelatin or other stuff to the mix to get a thicker, syrupy texture which still repairs itself, might be worth a try in the future.

I can see that I'd best prepare some sort of organized form upon which to enter data from this expedition.

Naturally, I intend to have some technical help in getting photos posted on this thread. I'm getting rawther excited about all this. Thanks for the input!

[Pepe Ray]

If the slury is thick enough to retard the dropping of each projectile,will not these same projectiles be in danger of becoming "secondary" projectiles?
Be safe now.
Pepe Ray

[MT Gianni]

Bruce, The original idea was Bob Hagels and he would pull the cardboard between each shot reasoning that few test bullets would be shot. He also used 1"x2" or 2"x2" as guides for the cardboard. His medium should test near to yours as it was wet sawdust and sand every foot with 1/4" plywood seperating the sand from the sawdust. Gianni

[shotstring]

Sounds like a far more intelligent test than the one I used to test a 340 Weatherby. We used a frozen steer out at my friends farm. It froze to death out in the field, so we figured why not use it for bullet testing? We thought we could chop out the bullets with an axe. We thought wrong. You should have far less trouble recovering yours, but I think the partition idea that others have mentioned is certainly worth some thought.

[BruceB]

Rotational speed (reduced):

I did consider the reduced-rpm factor, and decided that for THIS test, it wasn't important. This is because the reduction in velocity only amounts to 10% to 15% from what I'd consider to be a full-power CAST hunting load, and the same sort of reduction in the jacketed 'control' load.

That is, the .30s are running about 10% less than full power jacketed loads (2500 vs 2800 or so) and the 311299 at 1800 is about 15% under what I consider a reasonable hunting-level speed for a 210 cast bullet (1800 vs 2100). The .338s at 1800 are similarly (15%) reduced from the 2100-2200 speed range which I think is easily reached, with hunting accuracy, with the Lee 220-grain bullet.

I'll be interested to see how the .45 bullets perform at their lower speed of 1500 fps.

Another reason that reduced rotation speed is non-critical here is that ALL the loads which are reduced, are reduced in similar degrees, meaning that the results among the various bullets should still bear a valid relationship.

Later on, perhaps I'll do another test (if the box survives this go-round) , firing full-power loads from 100 yards. It would be interesting, to say the least, to compare the point-blank expansion at reduced speeds with the 'real' loads at 'real' distance. I'd have to give VERY careful attention to my zeroing!

Bullets striking other bullets inside the box:

I dropped a couple of bullets into the pot of fully-soaked rice, to see what would happen. Both bullets could be heard striking the bottom of the pot very shortly after going out of sight, so I'm not very worried about collisions. Even if such collisions were to occur, they would be at much-reduced speed, for certain, after a couple of feet of penetration in the slurry. A "slurry" is a substance capable of being pumped from place to place, not a solid mass. Y'all will note that i mentioned a "layer of water"above the surface of the rice.....this stuff will be a good bit thinner than oatmeal (which was also considered as a medium). This leads me to....

Partitions in the box:

With the medium being a semi-liquid, waterproofness in the partitions would be essential. Anyway, all I really want to find out is the final form of the bullets, and how/when they assume that form isn't too critical at THIS time....maybe later, it will be.

Lloyd's generous offer of some bullets to test:

THANKS, Lloyd. Since I want to fire this test in the next few days, there won't be enough time. If I extend this to further tests, I'll sure keep the offer in mind. You sobered up yet? Always remember: " 'Reality' is for those who can't tolerate alcohol or drugs."

Waksupi's "unexpected consequences on the first shot":

O ye of little faith!!!!!! I'll have you know that I yam a PROFESSIONAL tinkerer/disaster-maker, and I won't admit that anything going wrong was 'unexpected'. Murphy is one of my best acquaintances. Still, if nobody hears anything for a few days after next weekend, y'all might consider sending a search party. Bring beer.

[manleyjt]

Bruce,

You could always cook that rice a little to make it a thicker medium. Might make recovery a little more difficult, but thicker it would be. I see a bonfire, a barrel, and a sack of rice plus water. The night before is a bit of beer and a fun bonfire. The next day after you sleep off the hangover, you do the shooting. sounds like a hoot.

And on a side note rice is expressed as one of the more dangerous of the cargos to be shipped by sea. This is due to the expansion ratio of dry versus soaked rice. if you fill a hold with rice to the top and you get it wet, it will push a ship apart. Oh but a bit of worthless trivia to go with a good test.

I anxiously await your results.

[robertbank]

Bruce I wait with some anticipation. Really interested in how the .30 cal boolits work out. I intend to cast a few soft nose boolits this winter for my three center fire rifles. With our dollar being as strong as it is right now molds and presses are relatively inexpensive - least cheaper than they were three years ago for us. Going to have to expand my .30 cal mold inventory.

Take Care

Bob

[MT Gianni]

I made some the other night using a 32 ball purchased for the purpose. It fit well in a hot 30 cal mold and was at the minimum weight wanted. Gianni.

[BruceB]

It looks like tomorrow will be the shooting day, as weather conditions are forecast to worsen on Saturday.

Photos won't be available on-line until late next week ...my "technical staff" (wife and daughter) will be out of town until then.

I will post shooting results, however, and then y'all can wait for the actual pics of the bullets while already knowing how things worked.

I'm adding a few more loads to the list already posted, so I hope it'll increase the depth and interest of the test.

The rice will be put to soak first thing in the morning, and transported in a big plastic barrel to the shooting site for filling the Box. By mid-day it should be pleasant to be outside and shooting.

With The Box on the tailgate, I'll be using the rifle rest from Der Schuetzenwagen's benchrest, positioned on a B&D Workmate, to shoot from. The relative heights seem about right. Placing muzzles ten feet from The Box should allow minimal blast effect on the rubber partition which seals the end of the assembly.

Shallow compartments have been built-in along the box's bottom to allow recording the distance of penetration for each bullet, within a six-inch tolerance (partitions at 24", 30", 36", 42", 48" and 54" from the entry end of the 60" box).

Should be an interesting exercise.

[KSCowboy]

I have just found this thread and to say I am captivated is an understatement. Being a bit of a mad scientist about these sorts of things myself I'm loving seeing how this developed and the suggestions. If this works well I can see my wife questioning my stock piling of several 50 pound bags of rice. But then my family couldn't understand why I built a dummy wall of 2x4 studs and half inch sheet rock just to shoot it full of holes tesing various miracle bullets like Magsafes and such along with JHP, FMJ, various lead bullets, etc.. Anybody want to see pictures?

My only concern is that I don't like divulging the technology Bruce uses to individually identify bullets to the public as some politician might get wind of it. You know what they're doing out in Californy don't ya? They'll pass a law that bullet casters have to sit home and scribe a pin number on each our our creations!!

I'm pulling for ya Bruce, we're all in this together. Carry on.

KSCowboy

[BruceB]

Waksupi is a clairvoyant of the very finest kind, forecasting "unexpected results on the first shot".

Got to the shooting spot, set everything up (the rice didn't expand like my "test potful" did, so I had only about 3/4 of the box filled with the slurry....the rice was still very much "al dente" even after six hours of soaking.)

Starting at the bottom of the power ladder for the loads I brought, I touched-off a 311299 softpoint at 1800 FPS. That's all it took. The near end of the bottom plywood, 1/2" exterior-grade (good stuff, you'd think) was sucked UP toward the bullet path, and splintered gloriously over almost a square foot. It's still dished in, on checking when I got home. This stuff is RIPPED BODILY APART, not split along the grain or voids anything like that.

Well, now comes The Box, Mark II, I reckon. I can salvage this one by adding some 3/4" plywood
around the disaster site and stiffening it up in general. WHAT AN IMPACT! It was very impressive indeed. Right now, I'm glad I didn't sashay happily forth with the .416 Rigby hunting load for the first shot, which is 370 grains at 2050 fps, with a flat nose, yet!

I'm a little disturbed at the waste of 80 pounds of rice, though. The stuff was pouring off the tailgate like lava from Mauna Loa. Fortunately, there were no witnesses except all you fellers here.

Maybe next week I'll have it set to try again.

[garandsrus]

Bruce,

A video would have been really great!

John

[waksupi]

Yup.

Saw it, right off.

[Springfield]

They don't call it hydrostatic SHOCK for nothing.

[montana_charlie]

When I read your opening post, I thought 1 x 2 lumber seemed somewhat light, but figured that in one-foot lengths, it might do. That size lumber should have tipped me off that you were probably using half-inch plywood, but I missed it.

If you could scrounge up a five foot length of 12-inch corregated culvert it would make a 'box' with walls that are hard to 'suck in'. I would pick the kind with "individual" corrugations...not the "spiraled" type. That should make it easier to seal the ends.
CM

[Buckshot]

.............Saw a test in some magazine at some date in the past. It was recent enough for color photo's and zip-loc baggies though :-). Don't recall if it was rifle too, or just handguns. All it was, was a plywood outside framed trough with an overhead cross rail every so often, and large (gallon sized?) water filled zip-loc baggies placed inside.

There was another open topped one filled with packed oiled sawdust. I'm thinking Bob Milek did it but my memory fades as it was some years back. They used baffle boards made of Celotex (accoustic ceiling tile material) every so often as witnesses to where the bullet was. It narrowed down how much digging they had to do.

There was another where a metal detector was used to locate the bullet, but I don't recall the construction.

Back about 1982 I'd bought a bunch of raw peeler cores to use as fence posts and needed to treat them. My dad worked for a mid sized construction outfit and he supplied a piece of 12" OD schd 40 PVC pipe about 6' long. Something like that would be great for such a thing as a bullet catcher. I had to buy a cap for it and had to go through an irrigation company to get it. Even then it was a bit more then I wanted to spend. I think it was like $22 or some such for the cap.

Anyway, with such a piece of pipe you could use a sawzall (walls were like 1/2" thick) to cut out lozenge shaped pieces maybe 6" wide every so often along the top. This would leave strengthening strips across the top. While the whole piece of pipe was hefty, it wasn't a killer to move around. Of course it was empty :-). However it would be clean and free of splinters and sharp corners. It would require no construction or maintenance and would not be subject to deterioration. Since it can withstand several hundred pounds per sq inch I'd think it would be the bees knees for a bullet collection container regardless the medium used inside.

................Buckshot

[Cayoot]

That's a great idea Buckshot! I think I'm going to have to try something like that next spring!

[BruceB]

Cayoot;

I have some 358156 bullets here for you, but have been unable to make contact with you. Send me a PM with your address and I'll ship them forthwith. I was unable to post on the S&W forum, so this is "where it's at".

[Cayoot]

Thanks Bruce! I really appreciate that!

PM sent

[BruceB]

Gents;

The Box is salvageable, I think. The 1x2 stringers came to no harm, but I'll back them up with 2x4 on the outside of the box, as well as adding 3/4" plywood as a new bottom for the assembly. The plywood in this case was actually torn off the screws which held it to the 1x2 framing!

The rice slurry will work OK, apparently, and I suspect it won't need anywhere near five feet of the stuff to stop bullets. I'll stick with that length for now, until I get a real firing test with the big guns. If the rice comes from the same supplier, I'll use 100 pounds the next time. Maybe applying some heat as it's soaking will help, as suggested earlier on this thread.

The 1/4" rubber sheet which seals the shooting end of the box only shows a minor mark about 1/16" in diameter where the bullet passed through (not a hole), so it should do fine. I'm thinking now that an open-work lumber frame lined with this tough rubber would make a primo recovery box...that is, the rubber sheeting would be attached to the inside of the wood frame WITHOUT any plywood or similar 'skin' between the wood formers, and the rubber would be free to expand and contract with pressure waves. I wonder where this stuff comes from...have to do some research at the mine.

Hmmmm.

[montana_charlie]

I'm thinking now that an open-work lumber frame lined with this tough rubber would make a primo recovery box...
Agreed...

[versifier]

BruceB,
I got to thinking about the idea of cardboard partitions to track the boolit as it passed through the medium. Cardboard was dismissed right away as it is far from waterproof. BUT, produce boxes are made of waxed waterproof cardboard and might serve the additional duty of keeping the slurry from all flowing out of most sections if the containment box again suffers from hydrostatic trauma. Sheets of Tyvek might do an even better job for tracking, but they would lack the stiffness of the waxed cardboard and could be a PITA to properly position.

I wonder also if the box needs to have a top on it? Water filled milk jug tests work better if the tops are left off of them, but that might not hold true for the plywood box. Just a thought.

[oso]

...I wonder also if the box needs to have a top on it? Water filled milk jug tests work better if the tops are left off of them, but that might not hold true for the plywood box. Just a thought.

That's what i was wondering - would a higher side be enough to retain the splash (is it like water boiling in a pot?) rather than a lid that might direct the splash out. So what happened with the top action on that first shot?

[BD]

I just want to say that I think it's a real shame that this event wasn't recorded for posterity :(

BD

[Nueces]

Thank you, Mr. Lapp. :mrgreen:

Yup.

Saw it, right off.

[powderburnerr]

There is a lot of "plastic "cardboard around, most election signs are made of it .. and the rubber comes from mine distributors , they have a lot of tag ends from large rolls that you can pick up pretty easily...and pretty reasonable .. talk to some of your mine guys they may have some laying around.........Dean

[Bass Ackward]

I'm a little disturbed at the waste of 80 pounds of rice, though. The stuff was pouring off the tailgate like lava from Mauna Loa. Fortunately, there were no witnesses except all you fellers here.

Maybe next week I'll have it set to try again.



Bruce,

Maybe? Expensive lesson, but when the results are in, you will be more comfortable and that will pay back over time.

Ahhhhhh, what happened to the first bullet? Did it get washed away in the title wave you mentioned?

One thing you might consider is a single gallon jug of water in front of the trap to absorb some of the shock.

[BruceB]

Once again, thanks for the input.

OH, yeah, it needs a top! On that one fateful shot, I'd set up the top with about an inch of room to move vertically on its eight bolts, and it did indeed lift FAST, with rice spewing from the gap at high speed.

Y'know, I've seen hydrostatic shock vividly demonstrated many times before this, but I was still impressed with the commotion that a simple cast bullet at 1800 fps caused. The bullet did get lost in the disaster, but I'll cast and load a couple more .30s for the next try. 311299, with its long narrow profile, seemed like a good "worst-case" trial bullet, meaning that if 299 expanded well, then anything with a blunter shape should work even better. I think that 311291 and 311284 are good candidates, and I should be able to make a few softpoints in those designs before the next outing, probably next Thursday or Friday.

"The next outing"....The Box is now much-improved. I replaced the smashed-up part of the bottom with another piece of 1/2" plywood, and then added a new, additional bottom on the outside made of 3/4" plywood. Then the side walls were doubled in thickness by sheathing them in another layer of 1/2" ply. Since the major impact and pressure wave occurs on first contact, the new bottom and side sheathing are attached with drywall screws on about 3" centers over the entire surface of the new additions for the first two feet of the Box.....that is, the screws are in rows of five across the 12" width and the rows are 3" apart. I will be mightily surprised if THIS comes apart!

The rubber did come from the mechanical department at the mine. I'll be checking to see if I can arrange to buy some through company sources.

The various suggestions for waterproof partitions are excellent. When it comes time to refine the testing to the degree that I want to see WHEN the various expansion stages take place, the plastic-type partitions look like a very good bet. I have a strong feeling right now that the max expansion was pretty nearly instantaneous on first contact.

A video of the event wouldn't be very dramatic, I'm afraid. There was just the jumping of the top to the limit of its travel, along with some rice flying out around the edges. No external damage appeared at the shot. All the "action" was on the bottom of the box, out of sight.

The fat lady hasn't sung yet, by gum!

[montana_charlie]

The rubber did come from the mechanical department at the mine. I'll be checking to see if I can arrange to buy some through company sources.
I also have a need for some rubber sheeting like you describe. After you learn more about it, I would like to talk to you about getting some, myself.
CM

[floodgate]

Bruce, Charlie:

Check out the butyl(?) rubber sheeting used for pond liners; it looks like good, durable heavy stuff. Does the mine have any lined settling ponds?

Doug

[leftiye]

If you're getting suction at the first part of the box after the boolit passes, then the rubber inside the box with many holes drilled to let air in under the rubber to keep the suction from destroying your box might be a good idea, FWIW. Maybe the rubber bladder inside a metal cage would be good.

[waksupi]

Bruce, I'm having a great time, watching this topic. You may yet, defeat high school physics class!

[NVcurmudgeon]

Nothing to contribute technically, but I just figured out why this thread is called "inscrutable." Now onward to even more puzzling things, like understanding SWMBO.

[melw]

Nothing to contribute technically, but I just figured out why this thread is called "inscrutable." Now onward to even more puzzling things, like understanding SWMBO.


It means She Who Must Be Obeyed!:mrgreen:
Mel W.

[NVcurmudgeon]

It means She Who Must Be Obeyed!:mrgreen:
Mel W.

Mel, I understand the acronym, it's the mind behind it that puzzles me.

[melw]

Mel, I understand the acronym, it's the mind behind it that puzzles me.


Well ask the imposable why don't you!:-D
Try as I might I am in the dark there as well!
Mel W.

[Typecaster]

Another sheet material could be the gray EPDM/vinyl sheeting used for shower pan liners. I think it's thicker than the pond liner stock. Comes on a roll, cuts with scissors, and can be solvent-welded to seal seams. Bought mine at Home Depot to make custom oversize developing trays for photos for a convention booth.

[powderburnerr]

I have been wondering if the rubber face on the box stretched into and buckeled the box before being penetrated by the bullet maybe you should be looking at reinforcing the end behind the rubber , ply under the rubber with a hole marked for shooting through...Dean

[Wayne Smith]

Bruce, absolutely awesome subject! I am following it with fascination. I don't have anything else to offer except some information I gleaned from some of LOML's reading. She's a geologist.
In short: Landfills are made with multiple layers of lining, one of which is a material very similar to what is being described here. I offer this only to say that it therefore should be available in reasonably large sections!

[manleyjt]

As far as water proof depth markers you could go to the post offic ena dget a handful of tyvex envelopes and slip cardboard into them and then slip into the frame. shoot a hole in it and you can then patch and replace cardboard or replace envelope and cardboard.

You could also talk to one of the local realty agencies about the little plastic signs they put out, should be the same as the election signs mentioned above.

Less liquid in the medium will help with hydrostatic shock. You can cook the rice a bit to make it expand and soak up some liquid. But on the other hand if you want to get a realistic test you need to consider what percentage of a living creature is water.

[powderburnerr]

Bruce this is short notice but I do have some of that plastic the mines use under their leach pads , AND I am going to reno this weekend ,, actually leaving tomorrow and returning Fri night ,If you need this I will be happy to drop it off to you . you can call me at 775 738 8655 today or tomorrow if you want it......Dean

[floodgate]

NV Curmudgeon:

It comes from a character in a series of English mysteries, a lawyer named Rumpole, who refers to his wife as "She Who Must Be Obeyed". But it really goes back to a turn-of-the-century series of English adventure novels by H. Rider Haggard: "She" and "Ayesha, the Return of She", about an Indiana Jones type, Allan Quatermain, who gets involved with a sort of witch-priestess a few thousand years old, whose subjects are forbidden to speak her name, and refer to her by that phrase, and..., and.....

Oh, never mind; check it out of the library and read it for yourself; it's a real hoot.

floodgate

[NVcurmudgeon]

NV Curmudgeon:

It comes from a character in a series of English mysteries, a lawyer named Rumpole, who refers to his wife as "She Who Must Be Obeyed". But it really goes back to a turn-of-the-century series of English adventure novels by H. Rider Haggard: "She" and "Ayesha, the Return of She", about an Indiana Jones type, Allan Quatermain, who gets involved with a sort of witch-priestess a few thousand years old, whose subjects are forbidden to speak her name, and refer to her by that phrase, and..., and.....

Oh, never mind; check it out of the library and read it for yourself; it's a real hoot.

floodgate

Now you've done it! Didn't you know that recommending a book to me is like leaving a jug of "Old Redeye" on the sidewalk of Skid Row? Seriously, thanks very much. Isn't Quartermain the hero of "King Solomon's Mines," or at least mentioned in it?

[MT Gianni]

Back before Sharon Stone decided she looked better with her clothes off, she and Richard Chamberlain made a movie about it, also there was a B&W about She. BOth are more funny than serious. Gianni

[floodgate]

NV, MT:

So you've got the "book bug" too! Yes, Quatermain figured in "King Solomon's Mines" and a couple of others, too. As I recall, his favorite "piece" was a Purdy(?) "cape gun" (popular in South Africa, and named after the Cape of Good Hope), a side-by-side with one barrel for shot and the other rifled.

The novels don't "read" as well today as they did to me sixty years back, either, but are still a bit of fun. I think they are available in those inexpensive "three books bound as one" special editions, usually available used for $1.00 or so; check at AbeBooks.

Doug

[NSP64]

Hey Bruce B! It's Thursday night and I eagerly await the next installment of the testing. I found this thread and your sticky, while I 've been off work sick:(It has been entertaining and informative enough that the pot is warming up as I type:drinks:

[BruceB]

Thanks for the kind words. Either tomorrow or Saturday will see the trial shoot for The Box Mk II, so I hope to have something to report soon.

Powderburnerr dropped-off a big roll of leach-pad plastic on his way to Reno yesterday, and that may figure in a new design IF required. I still have hopes for the plywood version as strengthened. We'll see.

[Nardoo]

In 'King Solomon's Mines', Quartermain's kit consisted only of:

Three express rifles with 200 rounds of ammunition and three Colt revolvers and 60 rounds of cartridge for himself, Sir Henry and Captain Good.
Also two Winchester repeating rifles with 200 rounds of cartridge for Umbopa and Ventvogel.
(They could not drag their heavy elephant rifles across the desert.)

Bruce, I think you have more in common with Allan Quartermain than just being the hero of the story. One hundred and thirty-two years apart and both having fun with big guns.

To quote:
First of all I loaded all the rifles, and informed him if he touched them they would go off. He instantly tried the experiment with my eight bore, and it did go off, and blew a hole right through one of his oxen that were just being driven up to the kraal, to say nothing of knocking him head over heels with the recoil. He got up considerably startled, and not at all pleased with the loss of his ox, which he had the impudence to ask me to pay for, and nothing would induce him to touch the gun again.

I belive he would approve of your experiments!

Nardoo

[Bret4207]

NV Curmudgeon:

It comes from a character in a series of English mysteries, a lawyer named Rumpole, who refers to his wife as "She Who Must Be Obeyed". But it really goes back to a turn-of-the-century series of English adventure novels by H. Rider Haggard: "She" and "Ayesha, the Return of She", about an Indiana Jones type, Allan Quatermain, who gets involved with a sort of witch-priestess a few thousand years old, whose subjects are forbidden to speak her name, and refer to her by that phrase, and..., and.....

Oh, never mind; check it out of the library and read it for yourself; it's a real hoot.

floodgate


They made "She" into a movie back in the 60's or 70's. Scared the heck out of me when she, (She?), turned to dust at the end. I had a much more vivid imagination back then.

As for "King Solomons Mine", please!!!!! SHARON STONE!?!?! RICHARD CHAMBERLIAN!?!?!? Worse yet, PATRICK SWAYZE?!?!?!?? No, no, a thousand times NO! You want the Stewart Grainer/Deborah Kerr edition form the 50's. My goal in life as a young guy was to grow up to look just like Stewart Grainger, complete with bush jacket, and distinguished graying temples. Alas and alon, I ended up looking more like Wilford Brimley or Homer Simpson.......:(

[BruceB]

Yep, I am "on-call" for today, and working for sure tomorrow, so it'll be a couple of days before I get to fire the next test.

"Literature"....one of the worst cases of Hollywood truly massacreing a decent story line was when they transformed the Matt Helm books (by Donald Hamilton) into a REALLY lousy comedy with Dean Martin.

The Matt Helm books are pretty decent spy/terrorism/action books which were far ahead of the times (1960s), and the hero is nobody to cross. In one book, the terrs have Helm's child when he captures a female member of the enemy group. He sends his wife away from the motel room while he takes the captive (and a knife) into the bathroom. He comes out with the information he needs and the woman captive is dead in a bathtub full of blood.

Older books like these are easily available from www.abebooks.com which I've used extensively for some years now.

[floodgate]

Bret:

Yep, Stuart Grainger was a perfect Allan Quatermain, just as i had visualized him.

Nardoo:

You're right, but doesn't Allan Q. carry a "cape gun" in one of the other novels?

Doug

[montana_charlie]

one of the worst cases of Hollywood truly massacreing a decent story line was when they transformed the Matt Helm books (by Donald Hamilton) into a REALLY lousy comedy with Dean Martin.
I fully agree. I think I read every one of those.
He comes out with the information he needs and the woman captive is dead in a bathtub full of blood.
I guess waterboarding didn't quite hack it...
CM

[Bret4207]

My Grandfather used to read those Matt Helm books. I used to sneak a look. Some of it was pretty racy for the time!

[NVcurmudgeon]

They made "She" into a movie back in the 60's or 70's. Scared the heck out of me when she, (She?), turned to dust at the end. I had a much more vivid imagination back then.

As for "King Solomons Mine", please!!!!! SHARON STONE!?!?! RICHARD CHAMBERLIAN!?!?!? Worse yet, PATRICK SWAYZE?!?!?!?? No, no, a thousand times NO! You want the Stewart Grainer/Deborah Kerr edition form the 50's. My goal in life as a young guy was to grow up to look just like Stewart Grainger, complete with bush jacket, and distinguished graying temples. Alas and alon, I ended up looking more like Wilford Brimley or Homer Simpson.......:(

I NEVER watch remakes of movies. Consider "Stagecoach." Bing Crosby as the drunken doctor, Ann Margaret as the "soiled dove", and Ty Harden as the Ringo Kid?

[Bret4207]

Yup, yer sure right there. I figger anyday now they'll remake the "Thin Man" series with Brad Pitt and Jennifer Lopez. Or "The African Queen" with Ben Affleck and Shannon Dority or something like that. Some things you just don't mess with.

[BruceB]

We now return you to our regularly-scheduled topic......(*I* am just as guilty as anyone else for topic drift, and I don't worry about it!!!)

While sticking close to home yesterday, I found time to cast and load a few 311284 softpoints. At 1800 fps designed impact velocity, I'm hoping to recover these and see how they performed.

The design is about the best of the easily-available .30 bullets for hunting purposes, I think, ESPECIALLY IF IT WILL EXPAND RELIABLY. Nominal weight runs about 220 grains, although I didn't weigh these ones. I used a dipper which throws around 70 grains of pure lead. The softpoint area extends just about .330" along the full-diameter portion of the nose from the 'point'. These bullets were water-dropped.

Another day or two...(sigh)

[NSP64]

I was wondering about water dropping these 'duplex' bullets. I wasn't sure if it would affect the nose?

[BruceB]

I was wondering about water dropping these 'duplex' bullets. I wasn't sure if it would affect the nose?

Very good question.

One of the wonderful qualities of pure lead is that it's unaffected by water-dropping, quenching, oven-heat-treating, etc etc. It stays at the same dead-soft "hardness" regardless of what happens to the alloy in the shank, and thus is PREDICTABLE in its behavior even while we adjust the BHN of the rest of the bullet. This quality of predictability is exactly why I'm sticking to a two-alloy bullet rather than trying to adjust the BHN of single-alloy projectiles.

In the upcoming test, I have some oven-treated bullets as well as water-dropped and air-cooled ones, and some of these hardnesses are set up for direct testing against each other within the same bullet type and velocity. If The Box holds up, it should be very interesting. A direct comparison between a water-dropped .416-350 and an air-cooled .416-350, fired into jugs of water a couple years ago, CLEARLY showed the harder bullet penetrating much farther than the softer bullet.

As in my title above, this is the day for the next trial. It's getting complicated, because after the rice failed to soak up COLD water and expand as I expected the last time, I am going to put it into HOT water in a new 30-gallon metal trashcan, and apply a weed-burner to the can until the danged stuff behaves like it should. Starting this process as soon as it gets to be full daylight, I expect to head out for some shooting around noon. Not only am I now on the hook for 180 pounds of rice, plus the plywood, plus the sealant, plus the new trashcan, plus another new 20-lb propane cylinder, but I also indulged to the extent of buying a new digital camera for the occasion! If this doesn't work, I am gonna be TEED OFF.....

It's just 15 degrees now, with highs expected to be 43, so it's cool but fairly-decent clear weather and it shouldn't affect the test very much. I'm hoping to have some photos on-line tomorrow....if it all works. Watch this space later today, as I will post some measurements and weights as soon as they're available.

Fingers are crossed here.

[dubber123]

So start cookin' some rice already!

[robertbank]

Minus 4C here today with light snow - you are killing me! Don't let your pinkies get to cold with the temperature at 43F. BruceB how long did you spend up in the Territories?:mrgreen:

Take Care

Bob

[BruceB]

Mornin', Bob.

Hey, right now we are COLDER than you at 4 degrees C!!! Of course, the temp will go up after sunrise. Ahhh, Nevada....where you need both the truck heater AND the A/C on the same day....

I lived in the NWT from 1964 through 1997. The only things I miss are the hunting and fishing, and the 5000-square-foot home my wife and I built with our own hands on the shore of a beautiful lake...which was frozen from late September to early June, of course!

[armoredman]

"Cold", thats like inside my refrigerator, right? We have three seasons, hot wet, hot dry, and mildly cool.

[ktw]

The design [311284] is about the best of the easily-available .30 bullets for hunting purposes, I think, ESPECIALLY IF IT WILL EXPAND RELIABLY.

Not to be argumentative, but I am wondering about this statement. I had a hard time deciding whether or not to join Blammer's NEI 311284 group buy. I have always considered it a good design, particularly if you are shooting 30-06/30-40 Krag (I am not, my hunting rifles tend to be 30WCF). In the end I decided a flat point 30 cal heavy (like the RCBS 30-180-FN) would probably be a better HUNTING bullet for my money than the 311284.

I am wondering what characteristics of the design make 311284 a particularly good bullet for use on game animals?

-ktw

[BruceB]

ktw, sir;

You'll note that I only mentioned the 284 design as "a good game bullet" ESPECIALLY IF it can be made to expand reliably.

In my book, and based more on general hunting experience than on my extremely limited use of cast bullets for hunting, the ideal bullet will be as heavy as I can practically obtain in a given caliber, because modern velocities are not easily available to the cast-bullet hunter. Therefore, the 220-grain .30-caliber and the 300-grain .338 /.358 are the logical choices for the most-common rifles in our collective racks. If I can't have the speed, I WILL have the heavier bullet weight.

I will opine again that point shape is not important IF the bullet expands easily, as I expect my cast softpoints to behave. If such expansion is not going to occur, then I won't recommend ANY cast bullet for shooting big game. A reliably-expanding .30/220 can duplicate the .30-40 jacketed load, and that is not a bad department in which to be. I've killed moose very neatly with the .303/215/2200 fps factory load, so I KNOW such a load will work on deer and elk as well.

Without expansion in a given cast-bullet load, that load shouldn't be taken hunting, in my opinion. I've seen some animals shot with non-expanding bullets, and the experience soured me badly on the idea of using such loads.

I'm almighty curious to see what transpires later today.

[ktw]

BruceB, thanks for the explanation.

-ktw

[BruceB]

The Box didn't make it.

I started with the .30'06 once again, firing water-dropped 311284 softpoints at 1800 fps. The first round was fine. On the second shot, the near left corner of The Box blew out about an inch or so, and my carefully-cooked rice began running out onto the ground. I quickly whipped one more round into the rifle and fired it before the slurry level got too low.

The next go-round will see the use of that heavy corner-beading steel molding on all the corners, and BOLTED -not screwed- in place. I'm going to get this working!

The rice slurry REALLY tears up the bullets. From a nominal starting weight of 215 grains in my WW alloy, the recovered weights of the three bullets are 127.8 grains, 155.2 grains, and 99.8 grains. All three 284s lost their gaschecks.

The #1 bullet measures .460" (widest) and .435" (narrowest) after expansion

#2: .558" x .490"

#3: .502" x .482"

I did find a few fragments mixed into the rice, but there's no way to tell which bullet they came from. The recovered bullets don't have any part of the softpoints remaining, being much shorter than the original base-to-softpoint measurement. I wouldn't be surprised, though, to find that the shank material just continued the upsetting begun by the softpoints. I wish I'd thought ahead and been prepared to quickly fire one of the Partitions while the slurry was draining from the Box.

I only got a decent "read" on penetration with one bullet, which I found about 24" into the box. The slurry on this trip was a bit too thick, and next time I'll make sure there's more water in the mix...I could still see the track of the last bullet in the rice when I took the lid off. I ended up using just 80 pounds of rice, because it was bulking-up much better than the last time due to the cooking. The 30-gallon trashcan holds enough to fill the box nicely with a bit left over. My weedburner actually had the batch boiling, after quite a while.

Hey, if everything always went right, I'd have nothing to do! Not discouraged here, although I hear there's a rumor of rice shortages in Asia.

[armoredman]

Hey, China takes all the lead and copper, only fair we take the rice...thanks for your hard work, sir!

[NSP64]

Bruce, This is more exciting than Christmas!!! The Wright brothers didn't get it on the first or second try either:drinks: keep up the good work. I am going to water drop some tonight to use in my homemade 44mag singleshot pistol. I didn't get a good shot at a deer this past weekend using some 44 duplex pure/ww boolits in my 50cal ML.:( I will post results if I can connect with bambi:Fire:

[Bass Ackward]

The Box didn't make it.


Just wait until you hit it with one of those heavy hitters.

[waksupi]

Bruce, maybe you need one of those aquarium pumps, to keep the air circulating through the rice.
I'm with ya buddy, I'm with ya!

[AnthonyB]

BruceB posted:
The recovered bullets don't have any part of the softpoints remaining, being much shorter than the original base-to-softpoint measurement.

I'm gonna walk out on the limb and say that the soft points will work like cast hollowpoints using WW alloy - the nose will expand rapidly, then shear off radially as the the base continues to penetrate. That's what I'm counting on for my 308 Winchester deer load this year...
Tony

[NVcurmudgeon]

Even with all the hassle, those three boolits gave some hopeful results. Here's hoping that Mark III is the charm.

[Mk42gunner]

Bruce,

Sorry to read that Box, Mk 2 didn't work. I have a few ideas that may help on the next one.

When you bolt the reinforcing steel corners on the box; either use fender washers inside to help spread the load, or sandwich the plywood between two layers of steel.

Since it sounds like the box swelled at the corners and pulled the screw heads thru the plywood; what about backing the plywood at the corners wit a 2x6 to help resist bowing out?

On to what I think is ultimately going to happen with the bullet testing box. I know this is cost prohibitive for a one time, (or one person) use item. Steel either 3/16" or better yet 1/4" thick welded full length with 1 1/2 or 2" angle iron inside and stiffeners across the top every foot. I also think it should be at least six feet long; as there will always be the inclination to test ever more powerful loads in it, (factory 416 Rigby anyone?). Also, I would weld studs to the front to be able to install additional gasket/target holders without losing too much of the slurry, in case the first one splits during use.

If I remember correctly 1/4" steel weighs 25 lbs per square foot so my design would weigh 475 lbs before the stiffeners and cross bracing are added in. Might as well add some eyes for slings to lift it or strap it to a pallet.

Would a piece of conveyer belting be too tough for the front of the box? The reason I ask is the Dept of Conservation range at Clinton, MO uses it for target holders.

I thought of this because I happen to have several pieces of 3/16"x12"x10' steel and an old Lincoln pipeline welder. Unfortunately I need to rebuild the carburetor on it.

Maybe one day the planets will line up and I will get a box welded together,

Robert

p.s. I really need to get a new keyboard, three quarters of the typos I found were because the keys don't like to work :(.

[montana_charlie]

If you bring a pot of water to a boil, dump in a quantity of rice, and kill the fire, the rice will partially cook..absorbing a small amount of the water.
If you put the rice in cold water, bring it all to a boil, and shut off the fire, the rice will (pretty much) cook completely...absorbing all the water it can.
If the rice/water ratio is 1:2, you will have a consistency suitable for serving.

That consistency will probably leave 'wound channels' in the medium.

In addition to your 'Box strength' problem, you probably cooked your rice more than you wanted.

At the risk of being repetitive, I will again mention steel culvert as a container. It's only about a sixteenth thick, but it's engineered for strength.
Alternatively, a 55 gallon drum might be useful...
CM

[leftiye]

Looks like if the water - hydrostatic shock- and rice is simply placed in a container that the energy transmitted to the container is going to be astronomical! You're gonna need a muy fuerte box to handle your .416 loads (like B.A. said). Something that can flex with the shock- like a bladder inside a ballistic nylon case might be the ticket.

Also, unless you don't mind losing all of that boolit weight, you might have to go to a tougher (toughest) alloy for the noses. Like 5 to 10% tin, maybe some copper and/or even some silver. No way pure lead is gonna take 2000fps.

[Pepe Ray]

Do you remember the old saw about the "willow vs. the oak"?
Your testing to establish values that wll be important in using our boolets on game with plywood and steel skin?
Methinks there was a wrong turn somewhere.
:-D
Pepe Ray

[BruceB]

Pepe Ray;

You must have missed the part where I described the set-up. The bullets enter the box through a 1/4"-thick gum-rubber sheet which covers the 6"-diameter cut-out in the box end.

[Thumbcocker]

I recall an article by Ross Seifried IIRCC about soft nose boolits in ginormous handguns. Some had the soft nose turn into a lead washer with the core pushing on through. Looked like a lot of energy transfer.

You scinetific mindset and persistance are an inspiration to us all.

[Pepe Ray]

Sorry Bruce, but I've been here since post #1. If you calculate your surface area you'll see your end(s) are a very small % of the total. Like having too small a vent in your pressure cooker. Just MHO.
Pepe Ray

[Bass Ackward]

Not to discourage anyone here, but as casters we tend to want to see things for ourselves. We forget that Lyman did extensive testing for everything from accuracy to expansion and penetration tests before they decided on their Lyman #2 mix at 15 BHN.

Here is my 14 BHN, 4% antomony, 2% tin mix bullet before and after abused by traveling through 19" of Eastern Birdseye Maple which is a fairly hard wood at roughly 2100 fps strike. This bullet weighed 250 grains at the start and ended at 135.5 grains and it was in the bark of an oak behind this tree. This isn't much to show a pretty mushroom in something as light as a deer, which it does bloom out a little bigger, but does give me an idea of how it will hang together. Bear in mind, no jacketed bullet to include a Barnes X has ever penetrated this maple.


http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r267/ba2_shoot/Penetrationtest.jpg


Note the danged Gator check came off. Need some product development there I think. :grin:

[NSP64]

BA, were you aiming at a deer or the tree?

[Bass Ackward]

BA, were you aiming at a deer or the tree?


NSP,

Sorrry. Most folks know that I use water jugs and wet news print to simulate expansion on game. We use these maple trees to test penetration.

[manleyjt]

Bruce,

Could you use a plastic drum to contain your mixture? You can make up a pretty quick drum cradle out of wood. It would make it difficult to find the boolit if it sank, but it should be able to contain some of the shock if you make it so some dissipation can occur upward. But The boolits may also go the full length of one plastic drum (most are actually HDPE) so you might have to use a couple.

If you have a dialysis center close they may give you a drum that had saline in it. Might be worth a try. Make sure it has some vent or it will be like the water jugs.

Good work Bruce. Did you salvage some of the rice? I have heard that wheat will also cook up like rice, you may be able to go to a feed store and get wheat a little cheaper.

[waksupi]

Just a thought, Bruce. How about a V shaped trough? I believe with the square type construction you are using, you are going to find it hard to contain the physics of the incompressability of liquids. With a V configuration, and a flexible covering on top, you may be able to contain more hydralic force, by directing it upwards, rather than to sides and bottom.

[NSP64]

It would be nice to have a big clear walled tank ( like at bass pro) to shoot into, then could also be video taped:drinks:

[freedom475]

I have been following this thread from the begining.

I just had to try some SP's of my own. I wanted to recover one from a game animal so I loaded my 475linebaugh with a lite load of 10gr. Titegroup behind a 400gr RCBS cast SP and started hunting.

I had the great fortune of getting a nice buck with one of them and was able to recover the boolit. It preformed perfectlly :mrgreen: >thanks Bruce<

If anyone would like to see the pics of the expanded boolit and buck, I posted them in the "Hunting with CB's" forum on this great site.

Thanks BruceB for all of your input on this subject.

Freedom475

[Buckshot]

..............A 6' long piece of 6 to 8 inch PVC is appealing to me more and more :-)

...................Buckshot

[BruceB]

..............A 6' long piece of 6 to 8 inch PVC is appealing to me more and more :-)

...................Buckshot

Yessir.

By strange co-incidence, about the time that Buckshot made the above observation, I had just embarked on a search for just such a critter.

What I've located is a 6-foot long HEAVY plastic pipe, 10" internal diameter and wall thickness of ONE FULL INCH. The plastic is a type unknown to me, but VERY tough and intended for pumping sand slurry and other such highly-abrasive substances.

Once I get this monster home after doing all the necessary paperwork to get legal possession from my employer, the project will slide sideways a bit, to become "The Tube", instead of The Box.

I'll have to fabricate some round end-plugs, but that won't be hard. The pipe material has sufficient strength for lag screws, bolts etc. It will also allow cutting a lengthwise hatch on the top, which will probably allow retrieval of bullets without emptying the trap.

It'll be a while before this one's ready to rumble, but I think this might be the hot ticket. The Box had those corners which 'collected' pressure waves and focused them on the joints.

I'm spending a few days in Reno later this week, to see Cabela's new store and visit the Big Reno Show for a couple of days. This will delay the softpoint tests somewhat.

The rice slurry is becoming something of a question-mark in my alleged mind. The way the 311284 bullets got torn up at 1800 fps surprised me a bit, and I reckon the testing will be expanded to try both the rice and plain water. The decision will likely be based on the performance of the Noslers in rice slurry....if they act in a recognizeable manner, then I may continue using rice. One nice thing about The Tube is that it will take a LOT less rice to fill it for each experimental session.

The "Interminable" Inscrutable Test continues....

[Pepe Ray]

Bruce;
Do I understand , based on your statement,
". The Box had those corners which 'collected' pressure waves and focused them on the joints. ", that you are one of 'those guys" who believe that the use of boat tail J-words over plain base causes throat errosion?:confused::confused:
Pepe Ray

[manleyjt]

Bruce,

you might also want to check into polyacrylamide crustals for your medium. PAM is used in the reclamation and planting industry for increasing water retention in disturbed soils. It has the quality of holding huge amounts of water. this may work better than rice, but I don't know if it will be readily available to you. You can get a sample at one of the local big box stores in the garden section or at a nursery. It has been a few years since I worked in the reclamation field, but at that time a 50 lb bag was not that far out of line price wise.

I tis also used in the drilling industry as a drilling additive.

[Bass Ackward]

I don't know about all that. But if the container is going to get smaller and smaller, I would find something besides my pick tail gate to be the stand.

Aim small, hit the truck! :grin:

[Blammer]

so have you shot any and got any pics yet?

[MT Gianni]

I don't know about all that. But if the container is going to get smaller and smaller, I would find something besides my pick tail gate to be the stand.

Aim small, hit the truck! :grin:

2 saw horses and sandbags should work great. gianni

[montana_charlie]

if the container is going to get smaller and smaller, I would find something besides my pick tail gate to be the stand.
Well, this is what Bruce said back in Post #26...
Placing muzzles ten feet from The Box should allow minimal blast effect...
"Ten feet" shouldn't endanger the pickup...unless he's trying to shoot through a Pringles tube.
CM

[waksupi]

Bruce, you are still dealing with hydralic incomressability. I beleive your pipe will shatter. I'm really hoping you can get this to work, but the incompressibility of liquid keeps rearing it's head. In a contained tube, the pressure MUST go somewhere.

[NVScouter]

I've done my share of bullet testing and I'm fairly sure that tube will fail. Try and youtube the Mythbusters where they are shooting into a pool. Bullets dont fly in a straight line in water also.

Try getting some well casing if your set on a tube. Its very thick wall and strong. Water is a fine medium, rice or other stuff really isnt needed.

Or you can use ziplock bags filled with Jell-O and shoot through them in series. So after the round goes through a certain number of bags it will stop and can be collected. Then for the next round just replace the bags with new ones.

2 sawhorses and dangle the bags below with sheetrock or plywood at the collection end.

Just my $0.02

[armoredman]

I'm thinking about the constructive use of Death Row inmates, but for some reason the Supreme Court disagrees...

[johnch]

Just a thought
If you seal both ends of your plastic tube
IMO the first bullet would blow out one or both ends due to the shock from the bullet impact

If you could borrow a 90 elbow or 2 45's and make a stand pipe facing straight up
You could fill and drain from the stand pipe by rolling the pipe to one side and allow the test medium to expand up the stand pipe as to not blow out the sides or front of the pipe

I am going to do some expantion test by shooting straight down into a water tank from 6 or 8' above
I have a 6' high x 4' di tank made out of 1/2" steel , not sure what it was used for, it has sat behind dads barn for 20+ years
I just have to figure out a bullet recovery setup , maybe a window screen on a hoop frame
To pull up and recover the bullet and any fragments

I will have to make up a sheild to stick the muzzel thru
As the water will fly when the bullet impacts the water

I plan on down loading to try to match expeceted impact velositys

One bad thing
I will not be able to tell how far the bullet penatrated before slowing down and falling to the bottom

But my test will have to wait till spring
It will be 35 for a high today , with highs next week in the 20's

John

[manleyjt]

Has anyone seen a video of what balistic gelatin does when hit? I have not so cannot comment as to the energy dissipation or wave propagation through the medium, maybe someone else can.

I think Bruce's tests are good for us to hear about as I have not seen much of this.

[NVScouter]

Has anyone seen a video of what balistic gelatin does when hit? I have not so cannot comment as to the energy dissipation or wave propagation through the medium, maybe someone else can.

I think Bruce's tests are good for us to hear about as I have not seen much of this.

I've seen it. It expands and then restricts disapating the hydrostatic shock. The inital "Slap" is what is and will continue to cause failures if testing continues without better engineering.

[truckjohn]

Yep, hydrostatic shock is a real killer.
The shock wave propagates around the shot -- not just as a slosh up and out.

The classic example is a 5-gallon bucket of water and a fire cracker.
Floating on top -- it sprays a little water.
Tie a rock to the cracker and it blows the sides out of the bucket..... even though the top is completely open.

This is where clay or ballistic gel do so well.... you don't use the walls of the container to buffer the shock wave.

Sawdust is also good because it is solid + air....

If you want a box of something that "Self Heals", try a box full of dry sugar sand + pearlite or something.

You might be able to soak up the shock with some air filled balloons, closed cell foam or something that will "Absorb" the shock rather than just transmitting it -- like a liquid does.

I wonder if a bunch of big fish tank aerator would make enough bubbles to soak up the shock?

Also... from personal experience..... Move the box far away from your vehicle. I bought 2 new windows in Sister-in-law's car when a bullet ricocheted in a totally unexpected direction.

[MT Gianni]

What about using dry rice? If it doesn't work then you can cook it? Gianni

[robertbank]

The following would only come out of a Canuck's mouth but six feet or so of snow will stop a bullet as well. I have never seen any evidence of expansion though in pistol bullets designed to expand so I am guessing the snow does not offer enough initial resistance to the frontal area of the bullet before the bullet slows down to the point where it would not expand. Same is true of rifle bullets.

Take Care

Bob

[Doughty]

Veral outlines a pretty good testing system in his little blue book. Back when I was testing two alloy soft points in the .30-40, I used his method with pretty good results. I had been hunting with Hornaday 180s in my .30-06 and was pretty familiar with what recovered bullets from game animals looked like. I just used these as my comparison rounds. After switching to cast boolits, either soft point or hard point, I never recovered a boolit in an animal.

For cliches, there's something about re-inventing the wheel and something about build a better mouse trap.

[EMC45]

Cool idea with the Jello bags. Tie some in succession followed by a piece of free hanging carpet and you can retrieve all your slugs.

[longbow]

I was doing some penetration testing and was looking for a consistent penetration media of which there are lots around but many less that I can afford for more than one or two tests if the media isn't reusable.

I looked a gelatin but the cost was just too high especially if you go the real ballistic gelatin route.

I got one only Bullet Test Tube but haven't yet used if for big bore/powerful rounds. I tried to order another but they were back ordered at the time. These are pricey but reusable and with 2 or 3 end to end they will stop almost anything.

So far I am impressed but having said that I think many different types of waxes could be used for this - it seems similar to toilet ring wax but a little less gooey, maybe toilet ring wax/beeswax mix would work?

Anyway, here is the link: http://www.thebullettesttube.com/selecting.html

The Bullet Test Tube works and is nice but one and one test only then it has to be melted down and recast - time consuming and work. It does however give you a cavity to look at as well.

Personally I like Bruce's idea of the rice slurry. It is affordable, repeatable and biodegradeable. It isn't infinitely reusable but can be used for multiple expansion tests at one time then left where used - food for critters.

I am not sure how things will react in your pipe but if you use the rubber sheet on both ends you stand a good chance of allowing the necessary expansion without destroying the tube. The Bullet Test Tubes are just a 6" or so cylinder of wax in a cardboard tube.

I will be very interested in your results.

Thanks,
Longbow

[montana_charlie]

Ok, now we're talkin'! What we need here is 'bullet lube technology'.

Fill that plastic tube 3/4 full of well-mixed paraffin and peanut oil.
Wrap ten coils of 2-inch electrical conduit around the outside, and put one end over the pickup's exhaust pipe.

You have a 'lube heater' that should keep the contents at a consistency like cool honey.
Fire your test bullets and let 'em all sink to the bottom of the tube.

After the 'lube' cools enough to solidify, roll the tube over and remove three long oval 'hatches' (wisely fabricated before the test) and find all of the bullets laying in plain sight...needing only a sharp stick to dig 'em out of the oily wax.

Probably won't splash. Probably won't rot. No danger of something getting lead poisioning from trying to eat it. Might even work for lubing your bullets. What's not to love?
CM

[montana_charlie]

Has this project been put on hold...or abandoned?
CM

[oso]

Has anyone seen a video of what balistic gelatin does when hit? I have not so cannot comment as to the energy dissipation or wave propagation through the medium, maybe someone else can.

I think Bruce's tests are good for us to hear about as I have not seen much of this.

A block of ballistic gelatin appears to jump on impact and twist from the projectile's spin then flops quivering in fear. Happens kinda fast for my eyes to analyze more precisely.

[Blammer]

I would recommend setting 2 one gallon jugs of water BEFORE your test box or test tube.

This will/may dissipate most of your shock from teh bullet before it enters your test media.

Just replace the one gallon jugs for each shot.

The jugs will blow out and away and may not damage anything.

[Blammer]

I believe you trouble lies in that your test box is not big enough, going to a smaller tube I don't think will work.

If I could suggest, I would get a 55 gallon metal drum, cut it in half, lay the two halves end to end, cut a square in the end to put your plastic "window" you shoot through, then fill with your slurry.

The wider girth of the 55 gal drum may help with the shock wave of the bullet. The slurry could 'blow out the top' or at least lay a cloth on top of the slurry to keep it from raining but not restrict the exit path if needed.

[leftiye]

Good concept Blammer! How about a rubber sheet, or heavy visquene over the top? Sealed around the edges.

[Blammer]

if you seal it up you're gonna blow it.

let it lay loose, better off. Got to have somewhere for the energy to go.

[montana_charlie]

Bruce B,
Did you ever proceed with perfecting this bullet trap?

CM