Loads great at 50 junk at 100

[jh45gun]

Well at 50 yards my group with my K31 was a inch at a 100 they were all over the target. Gun is scout scoped and the load was 17 grains of 2400 with a Ideal 311407 bullet. Why the group would fall apart at a 100 I do not know but it sure did. I guess I will have to expirement with some heavier charges of 2400 to see what it will do or switch to a diff powder. Jim

[Bass Ackward]

Well at 50 yards my group with my K31 was a inch at a 100 they were all over the target. Gun is scout scoped and the load was 17 grains of 2400 with a Ideal 311407 bullet. Why the group would fall apart at a 100 I do not know but it sure did. I guess I will have to expirement with some heavier charges of 2400 to see what it will do or switch to a diff powder. Jim


Jim,

Yea, there are a thousand possibilities. It's funny really. Rifle guys will generally play with the load. Handgunners usually blame the bullet design and switch to something else until it works with their gun load.

Generally, for me, the slower the powder the better the longer range performance. (Whatever that needs to be) Even if loads are developed at the same velocity levels. But slower powders can get you more velocity too, so you increase stabilization on out that way also. If that is a concern. IF you want to stay close in that velocity range, try something in the 23-25 grains range with 4198.

But longer range shooting can be eye opening if you shoot mostly close up. Especially with a handgun. Most people shoot close up to get a group and then just think they need more practice on out or can't use their sights and need a scope. When the real culprit is stabilization.

[jh45gun]

Thanks You know that 311407 is heavy so I suppose I need more speed to stabilize it. If it was a 150 grain bullet I bet it would have shot better. :) Thanks for the tip. Jim

[JBMauser]

Actually you can probably make some assumptions and make adjustments accordingly. If the bullets are grouping at 50 feet you can assume (yeah I know about assume...) That the problem is not barrel or load caused. If they were the problem the spray would occure there. If the bullet was not able to stabilize or if it was tilted or somehow the yaw was great the spray would open up at greater distance. I guess I would start with the bullet then the OAL and then the leade etc. I may be all wet but you have to start somewhere. It just seems to me that if the cone is tight at 50 and then it opens it has to bullet related. You can all jump in and correct my assumptions if you like (grin). JB

[JBMauser]

I forgot to add that if it were my problem I would look at the 100 yd. bullet holes closely with a maginifier to see if there is any wider edge lead smear in the holes & look for a yaw tell tale. JB

[waksupi]

I guess someone has to ask. What is your bore diameter, and what are you sizing the bullets to? Sounds like an undersize bullet, to me.

[David R]

I went to the range today with my Savage 24V 222/20 ga. 45 grain Lyman roundnose GC boolit over 6 grains of unique. AV 1988 fps. 1.5" or less groups @ 50 yards like nothing. One 10 shot group 1". I sighted it for 50 and moved on to 100, EIGHT inches. This gun has a terrible looking barrel, a huge chamer and long throat. Its for small game, so 50 yards minute of squirrel is more than my eyes can shoot. I am going to try to lube some with Lee Liquid Ear Wax (read that here someplace) and just push on the gas check. The boolits drop .228 My largest sizer is .225. I will load 10 unsized and see what happens. I can settle for what I am getting now if there is no improvment. I wanted 1400 to 1600, but those were minute of paper @ 50.

I tried starting loads of Red Dot, and 2400. It didn't like either one. I want to keep the velocity low, that Is why I didn't try 7 grains of Unique, the load is already too fast for what I am after. I would try 231 or bullseye but have no Idea how much to use.

Before I HAD to make a head shot. Ever shoot a squirrel or rabbit with a 222? Season opens Sept 1.

[jh45gun]

I did not measure the barrel but from what others posted here most of these run .307 and I would not be supprised that mine is no different. The bore is excellent looking like most K31's. I shot as is and they measured .311 using my caliper so they would not be undersize would be a bit oversize if nothing else. I may have to get a 309 sizer. I just ordered a 311 sizer.

[Maven]

jh45gun, Several suggestions & observations. First, I don't think it's the CB design, weight or BHN that are problems as the K-31's are tolerant of many different CB's from the 113gr. Lee "soup cans" to 195gr. Loverins. Second, my two [K-31's] need CB's @ .309" and seated so that the action goes into battery with a vigorous push on the bolt handle. Third, I don't think it's the powder or bullet stabilization since I get essentially the same results from WC 820 and standard primers as I get with IMR 5010 with a filler and mag. primers: Velocity ranges from 1,660 fps to 1,960 fps with these. Fourth, if you're using an "as issued" rifle, the problem may be the sight picture you get @ 100 yds. I.e., the front sight blade is too narrow to suit my 61 yr. old eyes plus it's easy to lose against a black or poorly lighted target. By way of contrast, under the same conditions, but using a M 28/30 (wi.#314299) with a wide front sight blade, I put 9 shots into 1 5/8" x 2"; 5 could be covered by a quarter. Lastly, go over to the Swiss Rifles forum and check out Pierre Ste. Marie's very easy method of "accurizing" your rifle. Hope this helps!

[jh45gun]

I would not do any accurizing to it until I shot some jacketed to see how it shoots them. As far as the sight picture goes I have a scout scope on it. I do need to put a higher lace on pad on it for the scope that could be part of the problem maybe the other thing is I was shooting at a 8 inch bull not that great for pin point shooting so maybe a different target would have helped. WHy the 8 inch bull it was chosen for a milsurp shoot mainly for the open sights and they did not change the target for guns with glass on them. Still I think I should have gotten better groups than I did. It could be me at a 100 but I kind of doubt it not with glass. Open sights with my aging eyes I maybe would agree.

[jh45gun]

Could be too that the bullets were just too darn fat as cast and I need to get a .309 sizer.

[1Shirt]

Been there, done that, got irritated, changed sizing dies, changed hardness, changed lube, changed load, changed primers, changed seating depth, tried w/without fillers, tried different fillers, screwed with other variables, and once in awhile had sucess. With a couple of rifles, never did find the magic combination and said screw it, and sold the rifles. Hope the next guy had better luck. They shot better with jacketed, but not that much.
Like I am fond of saying, "Even a blind hog occaisionally finds and acorn". Think this applies to load testing as well. When it works life is good, but it doesn't work life sucks. Think that applies to just about everything I try.
1 Shirt

[jh45gun]

Well I know this gun will shoot with jacketed if not I got the only K31 that does not. :) It is just a matter of finding a better combination for the cast and I know guys are doing that and getting good results. I bet I just have to size them to maybe get better groups at a 100 and or change the powder.

[PatMarlin]

I'm finding that changing powders makes big differences, specially since BA John put me on to the whole powder pressure concept... :Fire:

[BLTsandwedge1]

I'm probably the last person that should post a response JH, 'cuz I haven't done much with rifles at all but......

The second rifle I set up for cast rounds was a fine condition 03A3- a Remington built under contract in 1943 (anyone know why the military would contract for 03A3s when they were knee-deep in M1s?).

Every combination I tried with a #311041 (water dropped, 18/2 alloy) was super at 50 yards and then went to minute-of-Arizona at 100. I slowed everything down. Way down- like to 12 grains of Unique and a grain of Dacron- Lyman's manual has this load at around 1,200fps. The load offered up 1.5' to 1.8' groups at 100 yards with issue peep sights- the same groups I was managing with Speer MatchKing 168s at much higher velocities.

Then I started to build back up from there. Anything over 12.5 or 13 grains of unique started going crazy again, so I settled on that load as a keeper. Then I started fooling around with fast rifle powders and I did hit on an excellent performer- 30 grains of IMR 3031. Lots faster than the Unique load but offering 2" groups at 100 yards consistently. Technique for both loads- sized .311, weighed into 1/4 grain groups, lubed with stick allox through a Lyman press and Hornady crimp-on checks.

As I find other long guns to cast for I'll be using this principle- start reeel slow, find a combination that works and then alter one variable at a time. I've cast a bazillion pistol rounds and never had to go much further than a reliable manual's recomended recepe. Long guns are a whole different thing......

Regards...........

[David R]

BLT what was the velocity?

Siearra reloading manual says they use 3031 for ALL thier accuracy loads up to 30'06. I read that and bought a can. Now I am trying it in my 1917 enfield.

David

[Bret4207]

It doesn't happen often but with some combinations when the bullet drops to subsonic the disruption caused by that change will cause problems. Not sure what your velocity is but if it dropped below 1050fps at the 100 yard mark it could contribute. Also possible the GC dropped off out there some where. Could be any number of things.

[jh45gun]

Ok since the gas checks were the snap on old ideal type I suppose that could do something like fall off, and as far as Vel goes 16 grains of 2400 is supposed to average around 1500 fps. Since the 311407 bullets are heavier I loaded 17 grains so not sure about the speed but I would think it would have to be somewhere around 1500.