Lee REAL Bullets, Blackhorn 209, and Wheel Weight Lead

[Wilkie]

So I just got my first smoke pole from Cabela's today.(.50 Cal Traditions Buckstalker) I also plan on using Blackhorn 209. I cast everything else I shoot, and planned on casting a Lee REAL bullet. But, as I read on some other sites, ww lead is not advised for ML. For the life of me I can't figure out why. I have tried to look at past posts and can't really find anything. By the way, I have about 600 lbs of ww lead in my garage.....

Any input here would be great.

Jason

[docone31]

I use WW, pure,it all works. You gotta bash them in anyway.
Put a patch under the R.E.A.L. it helps.
You might to use less WW, might need it later for pistols.
Good luck. They work well on the loads in the instructions.

[R.M.]

WW cast as REALs, will be hard to start. The only way to know yourself, is to try some of both.

[725]

R.M. is right. WW and R.E.A.L. boolits will be hard to start. I prefer pure lead for mine. Good boolit. Some shoot better with a felt / wool wad under the boolit. Some shoot better naked. Just have to try.

[Junior1942]

You'll need a fiberglass ramrod and a nearby tree with which to bang the ramrod against to get a WW REAL bullet seated over a powder charge.

[Browningshooter]

you could also go to swappin and sellin section and offer a trade.... your WW for Soft in return. I am about to do the same thing except reversed. I have hundreds of pounds of dead soft plumbing lead and I need the WW for my rifle and pistol loads. I will post the offer as soon as I figure out how im going to ship these ingots without the box coming apart!! I know the answer lies within this great forum...

[curator]

Wheel weight alloy as cast will be almost as soft as pure lead (about BHN6.5 to 7) . However WW alloy will age harden to 3X harder to BHN 12 over the next 2 weeks. To bring it back to the "as cast" hardness simply pop it in your oven at 375 degrees for a half-hour and let it gradually cool to room temperature. It will be BHN 6 or 7 for a couple of days. I have used WW alloy for R.E.A. L. bullets even with their harder configuration and never found them that difficult to start. Of course, I have a good short starter that allows me to give them a good rap with the heel of my hand without causing carpel-tunnel syndrome. Yes, a felt wad under the REAL often helps with accuracy. In my opinion, there is no better muzzle loading rifle projectile if you are shooting bore-size boolits. Work up your load for accuracy and have at it!

[Wilkie]

Would I be better served by using a DC 452-255-RF Lee encased in a sabot?

[R.M.]

Why not just use a round ball. They've been working for a long time.

[Junior1942]

Why not put an ad in your local paper? Surely there's someone within 50 miles of you who'd like to swap 100 lbs of pure lead for 100 lbs of wheelweights.

[flounderman]

You can get 50 Harvester sabots for 8 dollars and change, delivered. I wasn't satisfied with the real bullet and am just starting with the sabots. The round nosed commercial cast 45 wasn't that good but I have a mold for a 45 that has a fairly long conical nose, could be a keith design and the first two shots at 60 yards almost cut each other. I want to chronograph the load because the velocity was impressive. My limited experience with a 50 cal, 1 in 28 barrel, the Harvester sabots are the way to go.

[kenjuudo]

Wilkie,

PM me your address and I'll send you some samples of the REAL in dead soft lead for the shipping.. Some guns like them, some don't. Cheap way to find out.

jim

[Wilkie]

Wilkie,

PM me your address and I'll send you some samples of the REAL in dead soft lead for the shipping.. Some guns like them, some don't. Cheap way to find out.

jim

Thanks Jim! PM incoming.

[Wilkie]

You can get 50 Harvester sabots for 8 dollars and change, delivered. I wasn't satisfied with the real bullet and am just starting with the sabots. The round nosed commercial cast 45 wasn't that good but I have a mold for a 45 that has a fairly long conical nose, could be a keith design and the first two shots at 60 yards almost cut each other. I want to chronograph the load because the velocity was impressive. My limited experience with a 50 cal, 1 in 28 barrel, the Harvester sabots are the way to go.

That's great info. Thanks for the feedback.

[NSB]

If you're using sabots in the gun, it doesn't matter what the bullets are made from. If you're loading them "traditional" , you're going to have to really, really push to get them down the barrel if they aren't pure lead. With sabots, you can use pure copper bullets and they'll seat. You just need to get/use the correct thickness sabot to match the bullet you use.

[Wilkie]

Great info! I am going to try the REAL bullet(thanks kenjuudo) in addition I am going to try the Lee 452-255-Rf with a sabot. I guess I will stick with the "fake" blackhorn powder since I have that. I will post results. But, the more I learn about this muzzleloading stuff, posting results on my rifle is like telling everyone I got a pair of shoes that fit well. Nice for me, may not work for you.....I really dig this. Yet another gun addiction......

[R.M.]

I have a Traditions Buckskinner. 50 cal with 1 in 28 twist. I've tried all sorts of projectiles in it, and what I found the best for me was the round ball with 70 gr of 3F.

[Wilkie]

I have a Traditions Buckskinner. 50 cal with 1 in 28 twist. I've tried all sorts of projectiles in it, and what I found the best for me was the round ball with 70 gr of 3F.

How heavy is the ball? What kind of patch. What kind of groups are you seeing at 150 yards? There is a place near me that sells Black Powder. I have been curious about using a ball but I thought the twist rate in my rifle was too quick.

[OnHoPr]

If you're thinking about a possible misjudged range at 150 yards and it really is 170 yards then a sabot is the way to go unless you take a look at Idahoron's sticky on the PP Lee 501. Or you'll need some type of heavy long full bore conical like the maxi and a lot of range time to judge drops of those types of projectiles at those ranges. I think the big full bores can be very effective just pass the 100 yard range or so, but can really drop off in trajectory getting out to 150 yards.

[rodwha]

125 yds is pushing it for a PRB as far as trajectory goes, but it's crazy the amount of wind drift it has. I'd keep the range to 100 yds with a PRB. Use a conical, paper patched bullet, or sabot for longer distances.

Maybe (Buckstalker?) with the higher max charge you can do well enough with a PRB to 150 yds. I've not seen any data beyond 100 grns.

[Wilkie]

With all these different loads and bullets this means I will have to spend the whole day shooting.....EXCELLENT! I talked to the folks at Harvester Muzzleloading about which sabot to use with the cast Lee bullet, and the VP there told me he's going to send me a couple to try out to see which works better! Now that is customer service!

[rodwha]

It's true that a RB will lose a tremendous amount of velocity and energy by the 100 yd mark, but are still capable of a complete pass through with even moderate powder charges.

When I first began looking at the info available I didn't believe a RB was adequate beyond 50 yds as the energy dropped to what I thought would be minimal at best, and with such a low sectional density couldn't see how it could penetrate all that well. But it does. It's what I'll be using out to 100-125 yds.

[nanuk]

I bought a chucking reamer that had been modified with a long shaft that fit nicely into the barrel with a couple O-rings.

then I relieved the end to give it an alignment throat..... then I drop in the full diameter boolit and hammer it with my short starter. once in, it goes all the way without a lot of effort. WW seems to work fine for me, but I've not been able to get better than 3-4in/100yds with anything I've tried, but I keep my shots inside 50 yds and have not lost an animal I've pulled the trigger on.

[johnson1942]

wilkie, please check your private messages

[Junior1942]

There's a light pole on a pipeline on my hunting land. It's exactly 298 yds from where I stop my truck on the gravel road which crosses the pipeline. I enjoy asking my passengers the distance to that pole. Without exception they have all guessed between 400 and 500 yards, with 500 being the usual answer. My point is, Most hunters can't judge distance worth a dang. They have no business taking a PRB shot at a deer at an actual 150 yds. I also think most hunters shouldn't take a conical shot at a deer at an actual 150 yards.

[Wilkie]

There's a light pole on a pipeline on my hunting land. It's exactly 298 yds from where I stop my truck on the gravel road which crosses the pipeline. I enjoy asking my passengers the distance to that pole. Without exception they have all guessed between 400 and 500 yards, with 500 being the usual answer. My point is, Most hunters can't judge distance worth a dang. They have no business taking a PRB shot at a deer at an actual 150 yds. I also think most hunters shouldn't take a conical shot at a deer at an actual 150 yards.

I agree! That's why I always shoot with a range finder. Using it I have gotten better at judging distance.

[Wilkie]

wilkie, please check your private messages

Thanks for the PM. I will respond when I get home....

[roverboy]

You'll need a fiberglass ramrod and a nearby tree with which to bang the ramrod against to get a WW REAL bullet seated over a powder charge.

Oh man! That's cracked me up. Yeah, they may be hard to start.

[izzyjoe]

BH 209 is great powder, but it get's expensive working up loads with it! a friend has the same rifle as you, and neither of us could ever get it to group well with anything, but he is very picky about accuracy. he spent a ton of money on different bullets, and powder, and come to find out it worked best with 370 Maxi's, and 90grs. of Pyrodex RS. so you never know till you try!

[jonas302]

If you have a local source for black powder go ahead and try it on reals or sabots unless you like the 209 real black will get it done its just that none of the magazines talk about that anymore(:
Also the reals should defiantly be cast soft if your rifle has a tight bore they can be real hard to get down
Have fun trying all the different combos until you are satisfied darn thing going to make you go shoot more(:

[idahoron]

Wheel weight alloy as cast will be almost as soft as pure lead (about BHN6.5 to 7) . However WW alloy will age harden to 3X harder to BHN 12 over the next 2 weeks. To bring it back to the "as cast" hardness simply pop it in your oven at 375 degrees for a half-hour and let it gradually cool to room temperature. It will be BHN 6 or 7 for a couple of days. I have used WW alloy for R.E.A. L. bullets even with their harder configuration and never found them that difficult to start. Of course, I have a good short starter that allows me to give them a good rap with the heel of my hand without causing carpel-tunnel syndrome. Yes, a felt wad under the REAL often helps with accuracy. In my opinion, there is no better muzzle loading rifle projectile if you are shooting bore-size boolits. Work up your load for accuracy and have at it!

When was the last time you actually did a hardness test on WW???? I have never seen clamp on ww less than 12 bhn. I do have a tester, a Cabine Tree. Ron

[idahoron]

I have tested the REAL with WW many times in different calibers. They shoot ok but you going to hate what you have to do to them to get them down the barrel. I found that if you cleaned the barrel after each and every shot they were ok at best. If you want to shoot conicals in a fast twist inline use the Paper Patched Lee 500 S&W bullet. I can tell you for a fact that they will break an elk shoulder at 60 yards and will either exit or you will find them in the back end of the animal. Ron

[johnson1942]

thanks ron and amen

[Wilkie]

I have tested the REAL with WW many times in different calibers. They shoot ok but you going to hate what you have to do to them to get them down the barrel. I found that if you cleaned the barrel after each and every shot they were ok at best. If you want to shoot conicals in a fast twist inline use the Paper Patched Lee 500 S&W bullet. I can tell you for a fact that they will break an elk shoulder at 60 yards and will either exit or you will find them in the back end of the animal. Ron

I didn't have time to cast anything but I was dying to try out the gun. So I got some Barnes MZ 300 grain using the black sabot they came in. Also the powerbelt copper 245 grain and the 380 grain hornady Great Plains. I had trouble loading the hornady and the Branes. I needed that tree Junior talked about to ram the bullets down. I need to get a decent range rod I have great circle bruises on my hand. The powerbelt loaded smooth as butter but at 50 yards I was getting 3 inch groups. I used 100 grains of Blackhorn for all the loads. I will try the REAL out as soon as I can cast along with the Lee .452-255 with a sabot. My guess is the REAL will be tight for my gun as well.

[roverboy]

Check out some scrap metal yards. Sometimes they'll have pure lead in sheets. Plumbers lead is supposed to be pure.

[FergusonTO35]

I just poured a bunch of 250 grain .50 caliber REALs last night out of soft lead that you can scratch with a finger nail. Gonna try 'em in my NEF Huntsman, will be using Pyrodex because the real stuff is extinct around here and I don't have the cash to order any.

[idahoron]

I can scratch 18 BHN with my thumb. The better test is to drop an ingot on cement. If it rings it is hard if it thuds it is soft. Ron

[OnHoPr]

It was hard getting the Great Plains down the barrel after you started it??? Did you have it lubed. You got the gun new from Cabella's didn't you? It shouldn't be that hard with a clean barrel with the GP.

[Wilkie]

It was hard getting the Great Plains down the barrel after you seated it??? Did you have it lubed. You got the gun new from Cabella's didn't you? It shouldn't be that hard with a clean barrel with the GP.

The gun is new and the bullets came with lube. I didn't lube any more. I had shot a few rounds of power belts before I loaded the GP. I know that even within a manufacturer tolerances can vary. But I was surprised both the Barnes and the GP were so tight fitting. I hope to try the REAL bullets this weekend.

[OnHoPr]

The GP should be a bit harder to push down the barrel than the sabot, but you shouldn't needed to use any form of a tree method. You must have a real tight barrel. Maybe try putting a little lube on the bands before you start the boolit. If you have difficulties with the pure Pb REAL, mention it.

If your just starting its hard to believe the actual amount of different loads that can accompany trying to get YOUR BARREL to shoot accurately (meaning less than 3 MOA at a 100). Sometimes just the slightest differences can mean a lot. Just for example, I've shot the same PRB, same powder, same charge, same primer, same patch, same day, but with different lubes on the patch and have gone from 3" to one ragged hole at 50 yd.

The REAL should work somewhere in the 70 to 100 gr powder charge at about 5 gr increments even if you start in the middle with 85 gr, but lube, different powders, and a wad under the REAL could show different capabilities. That 452-455 rf looks like a doozy for the range you speak of. I looked at page 20 of its manual section 18 and its statements are very close. With the 452/sabot start with 90 or 100 gr and you can test up to 150 gr in about 10 gr increments. But as above for example, different powders and sabots can show a big difference. With that 452 and right components you should be able to hit the 200 yd mark. It might take a few different pounds of powder and styles of sabots though. One thing I do disagree with is in the manual is possibly "premium boolit", that 452 with a close to 50/50 alloy will put a smackin on a deer down to just over a 1000 fps. It doesn't have the BC as some of the other bullets though when it comes to the wind at those ranges. You could also use Shockly's, American Powder, the new Alliant powder and the such as long as you follow the powders directions or advisories.

Here is one of my main loads with 120 gr of Pdex Sel, (my BARREL likes Pdex Sel), on a calm day it would do just fine at the ranges you speak of.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?211866-sabot-pistol-bullet-ballistics

[Wilkie]

The GP should be a bit harder to push down the barrel than the sabot, but you shouldn't needed to use any form of a tree method. You must have a real tight barrel. Maybe try putting a little lube on the bands before you start the boolit. If you have difficulties with the pure Pb REAL, mention it.

If your just starting its hard to believe the actual amount of different loads that can accompany trying to get YOUR BARREL to shoot accurately (meaning less than 3 MOA at a 100). Sometimes just the slightest differences can mean a lot. Just for example, I've shot the same PRB, same powder, same charge, same primer, same patch, same day, but with different lubes on the patch and have gone from 3" to one ragged hole at 50 yd.

The REAL should work somewhere in the 70 to 100 gr powder charge at about 5 gr increments even if you start in the middle with 85 gr, but lube, different powders, and a wad under the REAL could show different capabilities. That 452-455 rf looks like a doozy for the range you speak of. I looked at page 20 of its manual section 18 and its statements are very close. With the 452/sabot start with 90 or 100 gr and you can test up to 150 gr in about 10 gr increments. But as above for example, different powders and sabots can show a big difference. With that 452 and right components you should be able to hit the 200 yd mark. It might take a few different pounds of powder and styles of sabots though. One thing I do disagree with is in the manual is possibly "premium boolit", that 452 with a close to 50/50 alloy will put a smackin on a deer down to just over a 1000 fps. It doesn't have the BC as some of the other bullets though when it comes to the wind at those ranges. You could also use Shockly's, American Powder, the new Alliant powder and the such as long as you follow the powders directions or advisories.

Here is one of my main loads with 120 gr of Pdex Sel, (my BARREL likes Pdex Sel), on a calm day it would do just fine at the ranges you speak of.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?211866-sabot-pistol-bullet-ballistics

I think all the crazy combos that are possible for this one caliber is what I'm excited about. 255 grains up to maybe 500 grains in a single weapon! How cool is that? I haven't even reloaded for any of my other non ML weapons lately! I hope to try out a variety of cast loads Friday. I will report back with chrony and accuracy. What a rush! Maybe I will put a dent in this Wheel Weight stash I have....