Don't turn up your nose at the "lowly" .22

[JakeBlanton]

Well, I guess this shows that we shouldn't turn up our nose at the "lowly" .22 and it's like we've always said, "shot placement counts".

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/30/4-pennsylvania-family-members-killed-in-gunfight/



4 Pennsylvania family members killed in gunfight



A two-decade family feud came to a violent end when a man shot dead the two home invaders that killed his wife and son, not knowing the assailants included his long-estranged daughter, authorities said Sunday.

Though the investigation of Friday's shootings continues, authorities said it appears Josephine and Jeffrey Ruckinger planned to murder her family at their rural central Pennsylvania home -- but it remains unclear what exactly led to the deadly confrontation.

"They parked at the bottom of a long driveway, and walked up, heavily armed," said Cambria County District Attorney Kelly Callihan.

Josephine Ruckinger was armed with a sawed-off 12-gauge shotgun and her husband had a Derringer pistol and a .22-caliber semi-automatic handgun as they approached the Frew family home in Ashville, about 40 miles southwest of State College, according to investigators.

John Frew, his wife Roberta, and their son John Jr., 47, had just returned from dinner out, and were watching TV in the living room of the white mobile home when there was a knock at the door, authorities said.

Police say Roberta, 64, answered the door, and cried out something like "Oh my God, they have guns!" before her daughter shot her at point-blank range. John Jr. then may have attempted to arm himself with a gun, but Jeffrey Ruckinger shot him multiple times in the chest, killing him, police said.

The elder Frew, 67, grabbed a .22 revolver and came out from the bedroom to find the daughter he didn't initially recognize pointing the shotgun at him. Frew fired once, hitting her in the head, then turned and exchanged fire with Jeffrey Ruckinger, killing him. He then called police.

Josephine Ruckinger was still alive when police arrived, but later died at an area hospital. John Frew was not hurt.

Callihan said that the preliminary investigation suggests that the elder Frew and his family were victims "of a pre-planned murder" plot, and that he acted in self-defense. Police also found a can of gas and lighter fluid in the Ruckingers' car.

Ballistics and toxicology tests are pending, investigators said.

Authorities are still exploring possible motives, but say there may have been burglaries and robberies at the Frew residence in the past.

A relative, Virginia Cruse, said the daughter and mother did not get along, but that she had no idea what spawned Friday's tragedy. The daughter had "a hatred toward the family," she said.

When Josephine was about 20, she and a boyfriend trashed her parents' home and stole items including a pistol, then fled to Pittsburgh, Cruse said. After that, she said, "more or less, they disowned her."


Sounds like a family that was a prime candidate for the Jerry Springer Show. :(

[captaint]

I saw this piece on the news this AM. At the time, I was sure I didn't fully understand what had happened. A .22 in the head ?? Now I need to know what kind of ammo was used. A tragedy, none the less. Families.......

[Lead Fred]

Ask Bobby Kennedy, or Honest Abe how 22 cal works

[JakeBlanton]

I saw this piece on the news this AM. At the time, I was sure I didn't fully understand what had happened. A .22 in the head ?? Now I need to know what kind of ammo was used. A tragedy, none the less. Families.......

Yeah, a tragedy for John, Roberta, and John Jr... For the daughter and her husband, they got what they deserved. She definitely sounded like a total piece of work ("work" being a euphemism for "excrement").

[grumman581]

"All families are dysfunctional -- some just more so than others"...

[Trey45]

what is the world coming to.

[grumman581]

Kind of brings a new meaning to the old phrase, "I brought you INTO this world, I can take you OUT".

[jcwit]

Ask Bobby Kennedy, or Honest Abe how 22 cal works

Honest Abe was shot with a .44 caliber derringer, not a .22 anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Deringer

[contender1]

Such a tragedy.

That said, I get sick & tired of seeing thugs arrested, only to have their momma or someone say; "He's a good kid, just a bit mixed up" or other such nonsense.
Obviously this girl was pure evil. Period.
My son is LEO, and he's to live with the fact his mother isn't wrapped right. He's seen enough now to know why I told him long ago that if he got into trouble, and was guilty, he'd better hope the cops locked him away from ME.
We all love our kids, but some are just plain bad.

Such a tragedy here.

[aspangler]

This is not the only one on Friday. A pastor (don't remember where ) was shot and killed by one of the deacons with a shotgun while the pastor was preaching. The deacon was only charged with SECOND DEGREE murder. How do you thake a shotgun to church, shoot the Pastor and only get charged with second degree?

[starmac]

That pastor was in La., but the article just said a man entered the church and shot him, nothing about a deacon.

[Swamp Man]

People NEVER underestimate a 22 there has been more mod hits with 22 then any other round. From what I understand the Navy Seals used 22lr sidearms for years before moving to 9mm.

Now to the story sounds like the daughter and her husband may have been meth heads. Those types are known for pulling B&E's to get drug money. Then getting more bold/crazy as time goes on and moving to robing and killing. They often target family members due to the fact they know the family members patterns and know what the family members have.

[starmac]

I can't imagine what this poor guy is going through now. Even if he had disowned the girl, he would have still loved her. It would be enough to make one go off the deep end.

[rockrat]

Yep, feel sorry for the Dad. She was still his Daughter and even though may have disowner her, I imagine there was still a part of him that still cared. Course, killing his wife and son might have extinguised that real quick.

[starmac]

He did what he had to do, still it would be like killing part of yourself, evil as she was. It is a shame he couldn't have seen it coming.

[D Crockett]

back in my younger days I used a 22 it kill just about everything I could the biggest thing was a 300 lb hog took 6 shots but none the less I used a22lr to do the job with. I also had to kill a cow at a friends ranch that was snake bit that got a bad infection in it put the barrel in it ear pulled the trigger 2 times and dispatched the cow with out any trouble at all. next time you are at your doctors office ask him which cal bullets doctors hate the most. most will say 22's because they go in and bounce around and do a lot of damage and what kind of ammo did I use answer anything I could get my hands on D Crockett

[starmac]

It is all we ever used to kill domestic hogs, I can only ever remember one time that it took over one shot, and that was a trapped piney wood rooter.

[rondog]

Reagan was shot with a .22 and they had a helluva time finding the bullet. Damn near killed him too.

[Dale in Louisiana]

This is not the only one on Friday. A pastor (don't remember where ) was shot and killed by one of the deacons with a shotgun while the pastor was preaching. The deacon was only charged with SECOND DEGREE murder. How do you thake a shotgun to church, shoot the Pastor and only get charged with second degree?

That was in Lake Charles, Louisiana. As the story goes on developing, it seems that the pastor was doing a bit of energetic 'counselling' with the guy's wife, something the shooter took umbrage with.

Funny thing is, I helped build that church building thirty years ago.

Apparently they have a different clientele now.

dale in Louisiana
(volunteer roofer)

[Garyshome]

Children are the gift that keep on giving!

[Catshooter]

No thanks. I try not to confuse good fortune with good tactics.

If that's all I had/could control? You betcha, all day long. Not otherwise.


Cat

[Mk42gunner]

Not a very comforting story for anyone that has estranged family members.

Regardless of what I would prefer to have in my hand (and it would not be a handgun) at the time, a loaded .22 beats anything in a locked safe every time.

Robert

[Lead Fred]

Honest Abe was shot with a .44 caliber derringer, not a .22 anything.



I have seen 44, 41 and 22. My history book said 22.
but that was in the 60s before wiki anything

Musta been some other important figure

[grumman581]

Not a very comforting story for anyone that has estranged family members.

Regardless of what I would prefer to have in my hand (and it would not be a handgun) at the time, a loaded .22 beats anything in a locked safe every time.



Probably the most accurate handgun that I own is a Ruger MK-II. Even with the Remington or Federal promo loads, it is a tack driver. Probably the length of the sight radius due to the 10" barrel has a lot to do with that though. It wouldn't be my first choice in a home defensive situation, but I know that it has the ability to put the shots exactly where I want them at that distance. Got to feel sorry for the father though -- he lost his entire family in a single day.

[bob208]

I read some where that the .22 takes out more people in this country then any other caliber. why? because that is what most people have.

[w5pv]

I know of 4 people that were killed by .22's.My sister in law done herself in with one,A klansman here got shot with one,One of my friends little brother was killed by one,and a friend committed suicide with one all .22 rifles with standard ammo.My friend, they had a hard time in determining whether it was and accident or self inflicted.Many farm animals went to the pantry was shot with .22's.

[Artful]

More deer killed with 22 then 30-30, I'd bet

[starmac]

LOL I will not take that bet.

[longranger]

Just finished up with my Utah CWP class and the instructor provided a data sheet showing the efficacy of various cartridges causing fatal wounds, it was not .38 Special/357 Mag, 9mm/40mm anything. The "lowly .22LR" has taken more lives than any other cartridge by a significant margin like 60% next was 38 Special at 44%.

[savagetactical]

Just finished up with my Utah CWP class and the instructor provided a data sheet showing the efficacy of various cartridges causing fatal wounds, it was not .38 Special/357 Mag, 9mm/40mm anything. The "lowly .22LR" has taken more lives than any other cartridge by a significant margin like 60% next was 38 Special at 44%.


Lots of truth in this, its why I have never felt unarmed with either cartridge. I never understood how people could feel the 9mm was adequate and the 38 Special was inadequate. :shock:

[grumman581]

Lots of truth in this, its why I have never felt unarmed with either cartridge. I never understood how people could feel the 9mm was adequate and the 38 Special was inadequate. :shock:

It is all about shot placement. I have not been shot with a 9mm, but around 35 years ago, was shot with a .38 special (when a kid tried to rob me). It went into the thigh and did not expand or even go through. Probably only made it about halfway or so through and did not strike any major blood vessels. I did not even know that I had been shot (probably adrenaline) and was in the process of "showing my displeasure" with his career choice when the cops pulled up and started pointing their shotguns at me. It was at that point, when I took a step that I felt something "funny" about my leg.

I suspect that if it had been with a .357mag in the thigh, I would have noticed it.

Would a 9mm have been noticeable? I'm not sure... I suspect that it would have a bit more velocity due to the longer barrel. The .38 that I was shot with was one of the snub nose revolver types, so the velocity would have been less than most 9mm rounds of that time. I don't think there were any compact 9mm handguns back then.

[waksupi]

That reminds me of the old 9mm vs. .45 acp arguement I have with a Brit friend of mine. He always says how good the 9mm is. He pulled up his shirt, and showed me where the IRA in North Ireland had stitched him with three rounds from a submachine gun. I used that to make the point, had it been a .45, he probably wouldn't have survived it!

[savagetactical]

That reminds me of the old 9mm vs. .45 acp arguement I have with a Brit friend of mine. He always says how good the 9mm is. He pulled up his shirt, and showed me where the IRA in North Ireland had stitched him with three rounds from a submachine gun. I used that to make the point, had it been a .45, he probably wouldn't have survived it!


Especially since you can load a 38 Special to 357 Magnum country. I do for my 38-44 Outdoorsman as did Winchester and others in the 30's before the 357 magnum showed up on the scene . I would not fire those rounds out of my M1905 M&P but I have no issues firing them out of a 357 Magnum pistol.

[xs11jack]

About 45 years ago, a neighbor asked my dad and me to 'take care' of a old lame horse he couldn't kill himself. Was winter in Wisconsin, we lead the horse close to the barn gate and shot him in the ear one time with a .22 revolver. Down he went, didn't suffer one bit. Took him home and butchered him and let him freeze. Used the meat to feed the hunting dogs several months that winter. Saved a lot on feed bill.
Ole Jack

[grumman581]

About 45 years ago, a neighbor asked my dad and me to 'take care' of a old lame horse he couldn't kill himself. Was winter in Wisconsin, we lead the horse close to the barn gate and shot him in the ear one time with a .22 revolver. Down he went, didn't suffer one bit. Took him home and butchered him and let him freeze. Used the meat to feed the hunting dogs several months that winter. Saved a lot on feed bill.
Ole Jack

We had to put down sick cattle sometimes and I would use a .22 right through the center of the forehead of the skull, aimed toward the brain stem. It would turn out the lights without even a twitch. I suspect that the .22 ricochets around in the skull cavity also causing a lot of damage.

[Dan Cash]

I can't imagine what this poor guy is going through now. Even if he had disowned the girl, he would have still loved her. It would be enough to make one go off the deep end.

Likely, the guy is experiencing great relief that the wench did no kill him and remorse that she and the daughter's husband killed his wife and son. Sometimes offspring are your most deadly enemy and create no remorse in your heart when they go down.

[grumman581]

That reminds me of the old 9mm vs. .45 acp arguement I have with a Brit friend of mine. He always says how good the 9mm is. He pulled up his shirt, and showed me where the IRA in North Ireland had stitched him with three rounds from a submachine gun. I used that to make the point, had it been a .45, he probably wouldn't have survived it!

From just a theoretical standpoint, the .38 is going to be better than the 9mm just because you can put more powder in the cartridge. There's only a difference of 0.04" in powder capacity between the .38 special and the .357 mag, so in a firearm designed for those pressures, you could easily run .38 special rounds at .357 mag levels. The brass is longer on the .357 mag, but the bullet is seated deeper, resulting in the minimal 0.04" difference in the powder capacities. Of course, the large case capacity of the .38 is because it was originally designed to be a black powder cartridge.

[William Yanda]

margin like 60% next was 38 Special at 44%.

60 + 44 = 104. What other calibers were represented?
Bill

[RoyEllis]

60 + 44 = 104. What other calibers were represented?
Bill

I think those % figures are total # shot w/caliber vs total fatalities. IE 100 shot with .22. 60 died. 40 lived etc, etc down the line. Another case of "figures lie & liars figure" (not calling anyone here a liar btw, just a blanket statement towards statistics). If someone shoots at you with a 10ga, striking you with one pellet to the earlobe, that doesn't make any proof whether that gun & load is a "man-stopper", just another limp fact for a page of statistics.

[carolina556]

.22 is my first or second choice depending on which room I am in....a great multi use round, and almost as fun as the .45 :)

[carolina556]

That reminds me of the old 9mm vs. .45 acp arguement I have with a Brit friend of mine. He always says how good the 9mm is. He pulled up his shirt, and showed me where the IRA in North Ireland had stitched him with three rounds from a submachine gun. I used that to make the point, had it been a .45, he probably wouldn't have survived it!
With a .45 he definitely wouldn't have made it with 3 rounds in him, that's a lot of displaced tissue and bone.

[waksupi]

With a .45 he definitely wouldn't have made it with 3 rounds in him, that's a lot of displaced tissue and bone.

Maybe, maybe not. Years ago, a couple druggies got into it up here. One shot the other six times through the chest with a .44 magnum. Lived.

[M-Tecs]

I have used a 22LR to kill approximately 36 hogs in the 200 to 400 pound range and 10 or 12 Steers in the 800 to 900 pound range. All for slaughter. All one shot to the brain. I did kill one hamburger/sausage bull that went about 1600 pounds. I was not sure if the 22LR would get the job done so I borrowed a 22 Mag. The 22 Mag worked fine.

The only time the 22 didn’t get the job done on the first shot is when I had to put a horse down after a horse trailer came loose and rolled. I had stopped to help. The horse’s owner was asking for someone to put his horse out of its misery. The horse had 3 broken legs and was thrashing around. All I had was a 22 handgun. It took me three shots before I hit the mark. That was over 25 years ago and I if I think about it I still can see, an older gentleman in a cowboy hat setting in the grass on I-94 sobbing into his hands, just like it was yesterday.

A well placed shot from a 22 nothing to be taken lightly.

On a side note I am relatively certain that the lowly 22 has killed more animals up to 1000 pound range than all other cartridges combined. Since the 1880’s to the Mid 1960’s most of the beef and hogs slaughtered in North America where killed with a 22LR. In the Mid 60’s OSHA started pushing 22 long and shorts for commercial slaughterhouses. A friend of mine worked at a St. Paul packing plant in the late 50's early 60’s. He shot thousands of cattle and hogs for slaughter. He claimed the 22LR and Long were effective. He stated the 22 shorts would knock them down but not kill them like the LR.

“In the United States, around nine billion animals are slaughtered every year[1] (this includes about 150.4 million cattle, bison, sheep, hogs, and goats and 8.9 billion chickens, turkeys, and ducks) in 5,700 slaughterhouses and processing plants employing 527,000 workers;[2] in 2007, 28.1 billion pounds of beef were consumed in the U.S. alone.[3] In Canada, 650 million animals are killed annually.[4] In the European Union, the annual figure is 300 million cattle, sheep, and pigs, and four billion chickens.[5]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse

From the 1880 to the Mid 1960’s billions of cattle, sheep, hogs and goats were killed with the lowly 22.

[savagetactical]

Maybe, maybe not. Years ago, a couple druggies got into it up here. One shot the other six times through the chest with a .44 magnum. Lived.

Several years ago I remember reading a story about a police officer who got into a struggle for his own gun and lost the fight. The badguy shot the officer several times in the torso with his own 357 magnum, the rounds deflected around the officers ribs instead of penetrating making it to his lungs and heart. Nothing is certain when bullets are involved. There was a gent local to me when I was a kid who got shot in the butt by his friend with a 22 while hunting the bullet penetrated to his hip went down his bones and blew out the side of the femur. It was by all accounts a very nasty wound that the gentleman in question almost did not survive. It is my understanding by the time they got him to the doc he was almost bled out and he was permanently crippled from the experience.

People that underestimate any cartridges destructive or lethality are setting themselves up for a nasty surprise.