Want to try very very hard cast 44 Mag for Bear protection....

[AlaskanGuy]

Hey there guys....

Hard cast bullets are kind of the standard up here for Brown Bear protection..... I bought the Lee 6 cav 310gr Flat nose mold to make my own... I have so far tried WW Water quenching, and the standard lead/tin/ant mix and have not been able to achieve the hardness that I have seen when I take apart the "commercially" sold Hard cast... Unfortunatly, I do not have a tester to measure the hardness, but it is apparent that my bullets after aging for a couple weeks, just are not hard as the ones that I normally buy.. I can make a scratch on the side of the bullet with my finger nail, wheras I can not make any kind of indent or scratch on the commercial stuff... the commercial stuff is hard as a rock..... How can I achieve the same results....

Please lets not turn this into a Hard vs Soft alloy thing.. Just trying to experiment with Harder alloys....


AG

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

You can try heat treating your WW, or if you mix equal parts lino and pure, you will have the same alloy used for commercial hardcast.

[AlaskanGuy]

If I use Equal parts Lino and pure, does that mean that I will need no Tin??????

Also, If I use that mix.. should I expect them to shoot with the same zero as my WW quenched Boolits????? Maybe then I can practice with the ones I have already cast.... and save the real thing for when I am in the field..

[BruceB]

I'll just repeat what I've posted on this website before:

On several occasions, I have driven 265-grain 429244 bullets from a .44 Ruger revolver COMPLETELY THROUGH the still-bleeding bodies of adult moose and adult Wood Bison. The bullets still had enough velocity on exit to kick up big divots of dirt on the far side of the animals, and were clearly still dangerous Their muzzle velocity was around 1400 fps and the range was ZERO.

The bullets were cast from 2/3 linotype:1/3 pure lead. Thus, they were not super-hard.

Your Lee 310s will not need super-hardness to reach deeply into any bear. Those bullets will break bone en route. I would be shooting until the animal is down-and-out, and no mistake!

I hope you never need to use the .44 on a bear, but it would be mighty nice to have it if needed...

[Thompsoncustom]

Speaking of super hard why not get some "super hard" from roto metals and see if it's possible to cast with it if not start to add pure and tin till it is, then heat treat and dry ice drop! Probably won't ever get any harder than that.

[olereb]

For what it is worth a couple weeks ago I made a batch that was 20lbs wheel weight lead and 12lbs lino and as of now they are showing 24bhn,i did water quench them also. Just figured i'd mention that since i'm guessing that hardness might be what your after.

[AlaskanGuy]

Being a fishing guide here, I have lots of encounters with bears, but thankfully, I have never had to fire in Defense.... I have pulled it out a time or 2 though.... But mostly, its the clients that are expecting you to be taking care of them that keeps me carrying at all times. and the thought that the one time that I forget the 44, I would really need it....

[osteodoc08]

I think you're over analyzing the benefit of "super hard" alloys. At a certain point, super hard can mean super brittle. I think by your description what you have already is more than sufficient. If any concern, set up a test with water jugs and hardwood planks.

[AlaskanGuy]

I hope never also.... but I feel that I should always be prepared for a Frontal shot at a charging Brownie... I doubt that there are very few broadside shots occurring in a Defense situation... Thus, I am hoping to put the boolit right out the tip of his tail in this situation.

[AlaskanGuy]

Well.. I am hoping to learn to cast my own Hardcast.... so Buying would kinda defeat the purpose in this case.....

[waksupi]

The reason the commercial ones are so hard, they don't want them banged up in shipping. Harder than you need.
If you want to harden your WW boolits more, add a few spoons of lead shot to the alloy when casting, then water drop. The arsenic in the shot will make them harder.

[jmort]

Beartooth Bullets does it right:

"This brings us to the reason that we use a 3% Antimony alloy at Beartooth Bullets. Although we too heat-treat our bullets to a BHN 21-22 hardness, this low antimony alloy retains the ductile toughness of the un-heat-treated alloy. This alloy, is hard, and tough, not brittle and prone to breaking or shattering like the alloys containing twice to four times the antimony content of our alloy. Our bullets have proven themselves on moose, grizzly bear, Asiatic water buffalo, African cape buffalo, elk, nilgai, zebra, wild boar, moose, eland and multitudes of other heavy boned game animals the world over... usually with complete penetration, and what few bullets have been recovered, most are near perfectly in tact, retaining 90-100% of their original weight when fired at handgun velocities and retaining 70-100% original weight when fired at rifle velocities."

95% lead, 2% tin, and 3% antimony makes sense on every level. You can shoot as is, or heat treat. I think 94/3/3 makes even more sense to me.

[BRobertson]

My alloy water drops at average of 20 to 22 measured by my Cabin Tree tool. I can smash it almost flat with a sledge and it will not shatter.
I have used this same alloy for decades here in Alaska for moose, brown bear, etc. I ALWAYS get complete penetration,and very fast kills!!

Usually cast in the form of an LBT LFN, 300 gr or a little over.

WE generally get the alloy by mixing 50% WW and 50% lino by volume.

Bob

[Thompsoncustom]

adding sulfur to your alloy will help get the alloy harder quicker when water dropping. Here's a link to some good info on adding stuff to your alloy for hardening it up.

http://www.lasc.us/WiljenArsenic.htm

[S.B.]

Sounds like replies are bouncing all over the place on this thread? Shorthand doesn't help either altho I can figure most of it out. Pure=pure lead?
I've cast with straight wheel weights dropped straight into water from the mold for decades and my hardness has always been enough for me.
Steve

[MtGun44]

No need for super hard to completely penetrate a bear at most angles if you are at about 12-1300 fps with a
flat point 250-300 grain boolit.

Bill

[BRobertson]

I like the hard for the rare occasion that I need to take a shoulder shot on a moose, or a really big bear, it does make a difference.

Bob

[Jailer]

Heat treating your WW bullets will produce what you are trying to achieve.

I seem to get better results heat treating than I do water dropping.

[cbrick]

AlaskanGuy, advice in your quest for "hardcast" boolits, simply re-read posts 4 - 12 - 16.

Rick

[GabbyM]

Toughest bullets I ever cast up were for a 458 rifle. They shot through four foot of pine stump and a surprising thickness of steel plate. Started with 2:6 foundry alloy. Cut with pure Pb to 5% antimony. Used lead free solder, which contains a touch of Cu, to bring tin up to 4%. They were shot at over 1,900 fps and weighed in at 420 grains. Owning a 44 magnum hand gun. Never saw any need for an alloy tougher or harder than air cooled 2:6 at BHN 15. Since my six inch barrel Anaconda will shoot a 240 grain boolit over 1540 fps using WW296. You could blunt the nose a bit on close in shots. So what. Using a formula. BHN x 100 = velocity at which useful expansion starts. A BHN #15 alloy like 2:6 doesn't start to expand much until you get to and exceed 1,500 fps. A 310 grain slug from a 44 mag is well under that velocity. Clip on WW plus 2% tin is plenty tough and hard for a 44 pistol. If you want to get fancy use the lead free solder with a bit of Cu. Plus start with foundry alloy so you know what you have.
Water dropping WW's just makes them more brittle increasing chances of breaking up on a bone. However slight a risk that is. If water dropped bullets shoot better I'd not worry to much about the brittle at hand gun velocity. I do shoot heat treated rifle bullets but start with a 2 to 3 % Sb alloy. Results are a 15 to 18 BHN bullet that will expand without breaking at rifle velocity.
Much of the scrap WW metal anymore is down around 2 to 3% Sb to start with. Instead of the old 4% WW's. You never want more tin in the alloy than Sb when blending a Sn Sb Pb alloy.

[AlaskanGuy]

Wow... I must say a huge thank you to all of the truly expert advice that i have received in these posts.... What a wealth of information.... This is what i was hoping for. And I received it in spades. Thanks again to all that replied...

Alaskanguy

[fredj338]

Proper water quenched ww are plenty hard but if you want more, try oven heat treating or linotype. I don't think you need a bullet harder than lino for anything, but you can certainly get a sim bullet to the Federal.

[jgt]

I have a mold that cast a 350 grn Keith style gc bullet and have cast air cooled wheel weights with it. These would shoot through a thirty inch diameter tree and about eighteen inches into a gravel bank behind it. The bullets were pristeen except for the nose forward of the driving band being worn off at about the same angle as the gravel banks slope. These were only going eleven or twelve hundred fps if I recall correctly. Today I would be comfortable using a cast 290 grn LBT style gc bullet because they leave a lot of space in the cartridge for powder and still have a lot of weight for penetration.

[jlchucker]

The reason the commercial ones are so hard, they don't want them banged up in shipping. Harder than you need.
If you want to harden your WW boolits more, add a few spoons of lead shot to the alloy when casting, then water drop. The arsenic in the shot will make them harder.

I suspect that may also be why those commercial cast ones are "lubed" with that blue stuff--so it won't smear around in the packaging. "Pretty" store-bought boolits aren't necessarily the best ones. IMO the best ones are those you make up yourself, for the gun that you're going to use.

[44man]

I too just use water dropped WW's in all my revolvers, even the .475 and .500 JRH. Mine vary from 20 to 22 BHN and just won't break on anything but steel plate. I don't think you can stop them in any animal. The penetration of a revolver is just plain amazing. My .44 will do 34" of soaked phone books and that is some tough stuff, nose will not even rivit, still looks as loaded.
Boolit weight is more important then a few BHN and the Lee 310 is a great boolit.

[cbrick]

Water dropping WW's just makes them more brittle increasing chances of breaking up on a bone.

Gabby, I agree with everything in your post except this one line. Heat treating a Pb/Sb alloy by either quenching or oven heat treating will increase the final hardness with very little to no increase in brittleness. An increase in Sb is what will increase how brittle the alloy is.

As for the term "hardcast" used by the OP . . . It is a word invented by commercial bullet casters for the sole purpose of selling their product. It has nothing to do with what is best for their customers, it confuses and misinforms people new to casting and those buying commercial cast. Too hard is the second leading cause of bore leading and inaccuracy right behind poor fit in the firearm they are fired in.

Rick

[44man]

Rick is right! One thing I have found is even WD, WW boolits are far too hard for hunting in several of my calibers like the 45-70 and JRH. Harder works good in the .44 on deer. I would reserve the hard boolits for very large animals from my large calibers.
For small animals even air cooled can be too hard and it is time for adding pure lead or making soft nose.
Now I do on occassion make a harder boolit by adding a small amount of antimony and some tin but it is just for target, never found any need for type metal.
You can shoot pretty soft boolits but I avoid anything that gets near the slump point the same as I stay away from too much antimony.
I say the WW is about the most versatile and cheap lead you can use. It is a good starting point to change then about anything.

[Mk42gunner]

I am not in Alaska any more, and there weren't any bears on Adak anyway.

What I think you should do is test some boolits for penetration and recovery. Who knows, the commercial hardcast might not penetrate as much as your home cast ones.

In a situation such as this, it is better to know for a fact than to guess.

Robert

[AKbushman49]

AlaskaGuy- I don't know if a super hard boolit will get you any more penetration than a softer one.
I was a tech working the high sites in AK for a lot of years (Naked Is, Hinch, Pigot, Cape Gull and others) wasn't allowed anything but a pistol. Mine was a Ruger Bisley 44mag. Load: 330gr JDJ BHN as cast 10-12, WD to 16-18 over a healthy charge WW296. alloy 50% WW, 45% cable sheath, 3% magnum lead shot, and a touch of 50-50 solder. I get a tad more boolit weight with the softer alloy, my mold spec says 310gr with lyman#2. I get 330gr. Veral's rule of thumb 1 BHN for every 100fps was my baseline, recoil is stiff but nowhere near a 454. Accurate, effective, no leading. Every Blackie and one Brownie stem to stern. Just my 2 cents.
AKbushman49

[Lloyd Smale]

ive never shot a brown bear with any bullet so im sure no expert but have shot a bunch of deer, blackbear, boar and buffalo. A bullet 16-20bhn is plenty hard for anything. You dont need tin with your alloy because your lineotype has plenty in it for that alloy. 5050 pure and lino should get you in the 16-18 bhb range air cooled. Ive drove bullets out of alloys simular lenghtwize through 1000 lb buffalo. Ill add one more thing. Its very rare that any alloy bullet no matter how hard or how you got there fractures at handgun velocitys. Ive seen water dropped super hard bullets lose there nose but these were water dropped comercial bullets. Thing is i dont know if they actually fractured because of the hardness or were just cast to fast and were cracked in that area before when they came out of the mold. Ive shot a ton of pure linotype bullets out of handguns and NEVER got one to fracture unless you count shooting them at steal and that will destroy any bullet.

[AlaskanGuy]

Thanks guys, good discussion..... And lots of cool info.....

[MtGun44]

Avoid linotype, it is very brittle and shatters with hard impact. Hit a lino boolit with
a hammer if you doubt it.

Bill

[jgt]

I have been casting nearly forty years and I still learn a lot each year. I gained a lot from reading "Jacketed Proformance From Cast Bullet" BY Veril Smith. Then came the most comprehensive book on casting I have come in contact with "From Ingot to Target" by Glen Fryxell. What is even more remarkable is Glen put his book on line for everyone to benefit from free of charge. Look him up and read his book and I believe you will consider it time well spent. I'm sorry I don't know much about computers, but if I can find it I would bet you can too. Good luck.

[old beekeeper]

JGT

That book can be found by going to the Las Angeles Silhouette Club. http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm
It is a great group of articles and can be downloaded. I keep a copy of it on my loading bench and give it a look from time to time. Also, I can tell you that a 300 grain bullet over a stiff charge of Lil Gun will take down a Virginia Bear with no problem, said bullet ranging about 15BHN. Bear charged got about 20 yards, shot at 19 yards, dropped at 15 yards after doing a final roll over, don't know about those Alaska Bears, they may be tougher, but it would probably give them food for thought. Of course, I was using a .44 mag Marlin 1894 which may have given a little more muzzle velocity, but I bet not all that much. This particular bear was tearing up my bee hives and he didn't like me taking exception to his task, turned, showed me his teeth and I showed him my Marlin. Case closed.

Beekeeper

[MT Gianni]

Avoid linotype, it is very brittle and shatters with hard impact. Hit a lino boolit with
a hammer if you doubt it.

Bill
I hope you mean to avoid using only linotype as a bullet metal. In an alloy of 50-50 Lino is fine.

[MtGun44]

yep, just straight lino is brittle, 50-50 is great, but I often add a bit of tin, too.

Bill

[W.R.Buchanan]

AKguy: not to change the subject but, do you carry Bear Spray with you?

IT seems like that would be a more effective way to deal with a charging bear.

I have read that NO Bear has ever gotten past Bear Pepper Spray.

If this is true, then it would make sense to use that option before a pistol that would be difficult to hit with under that much stress. Also consider that if you do hit the bear, you must actually kill the bear, which may or may not happen even if you get full pen.

IN order to experience full penetration you must first hit said target. I personally like guns, but also think it would be much easier to hit the moving target with an aerosol can that shoots 30 feet!

Pretty sure you would get full pen with strait wheel weights. In any event you could practice with them and then maybe buy some Beartooth Boolits for your defensive rounds since you probably won't shoot up 100 of them at real bears in your lifetime, or you could buy more if you ran out. They aren't that expensive.

I find that this is the best and most efficient way to cope with low usage things you want to use. You make what you use most, and buy the stuff you use infrequently. That way you don't have to set up for something you're only going to do once in a while.

I recommend this way for people who want to shoot +P ammo in their defensive guns. You load midrange loads for most shooting and if you need to shoot a hot rod load you just buy a box and use them as needed . Much easier and safer than pushing into unknown territory that you aren't going to visit very often.

My.02

Randy

[waksupi]

AKguy: not to change the subject but, do you carry Bear Spray with you?

IT seems like that would be a more effective way to deal with a charging bear.

I have read that NO Bear has ever gotten past Bear Pepper Spray.



Randy

Jack Hannah nearly got his butt ate by a griz up here.

Wind, doncha know?

[AlaskanGuy]

I do hand out pepper spray to the clients, but once a can accidently went off in our suburban... Couldnt set foot in the suburban for weeks... And i once saw a test video of a brownie rolling in a patch of ground that was sprayed with bear spray... I dont know, i like the ability of lead spray better, and the customers like it better too...

[W.R.Buchanan]

You could use the gun as a back up and it would probably be easier to hit the bear if he was writhing in agony on the ground in front of you?

:mrgreen:

Randy

[Oreo]

Are there picatiny qr mounts for bear spray? I'm thinking I don't mind having it pointing in the same direction as my pea shooter and let my trigger finger decide in the moment of need. But I'll be damned before I go futzing around with a spray can instead of a bfr when I've got 50ft of bear charge time to save my ***.

[AlaskanGuy]

Lol... Randy is too funny.... My customers carry the spray, i carry my 44 mag with 310 grains of hard cast spray......

[TMenezes]

I didn't read all three pages of this, but figured I would mention something going back to the original post.

Just before I started casting my own I ordered a bunch of hardcast 44 mag bullets that the company said was bhn 22 I believe. I took them to the range and was playing around with them at low velocity range loads. I was planning on working up some up some heavy loads for hunting wild boar. I noticed several of the bullets were shattering on bowling pins!

I realized if they hit a solid bone they stood a high chance of shattering instead of penetrating on through. Now I just use them and their crappy lube to flux my pot lol. Now the bullets I cast sail right through those pins and the slugs I manage to recover are barely scratched. Just food for thought.

[BRobertson]

AKguy: not to change the subject but, do you carry Bear Spray with you?

IT seems like that would be a more effective way to deal with a charging bear.

I have read that NO Bear has ever gotten past Bear Pepper Spray.

If this is true, then it would make sense to use that option before a pistol that would be difficult to hit with under that much stress. Also consider that if you do hit the bear, you must actually kill the bear, which may or may not happen even if you get full pen.

IN order to experience full penetration you must first hit said target. I personally like guns, but also think it would be much easier to hit the moving target with an aerosol can that shoots 30 feet!

Pretty sure you would get full pen with strait wheel weights. In any event you could practice with them and then maybe buy some Beartooth Boolits for your defensive rounds since you probably won't shoot up 100 of them at real bears in your lifetime, or you could buy more if you ran out. They aren't that expensive.

I find that this is the best and most efficient way to cope with low usage things you want to use. You make what you use most, and buy the stuff you use infrequently. That way you don't have to set up for something you're only going to do once in a while.

I recommend this way for people who want to shoot +P ammo in their defensive guns. You load midrange loads for most shooting and if you need to shoot a hot rod load you just buy a box and use them as needed . Much easier and safer than pushing into unknown territory that you aren't going to visit very often.

My.02

Randy

Bear spray is not very well respected in some circles here in Alaska!!!!!!

I know a bear researcher who had 2 failures with spray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fortunately both times were with mildly aggressive black bears.

A LOT of VERY experienced bear guides DO NOT trust it!! I am one of those that do not !!!

If bear spray is all you have at the time , then use it, and it might work!!

Natural selection can be cruel!!!!!!!!

Bob

[waksupi]

The people that the bear spray doesn't work for, you never hear from again. Kind of like our grizzly bear paint ball teams. They go out, but they never come back.

[BRobertson]

The people that the bear spray doesn't work for, you never hear from again. Kind of like our grizzly bear paint ball teams. They go out, but they never come back.

!!! THATS funny!!!

It is also probably true!!!!

Bob

[Mal Paso]

I used to carry Bear Mace. My daughter zapped herself with it and was Not incapacitated. You're Not going to have 30 feet of range with it outside in the wind. I wasn't willing to carry a long gun so I settled on a 4" Redhawk in 44 Mag. And practiced.

I shoot the same Water Dropped 96/2.5/1.5 Alloy 260g H&G 503 in the bear loads as I shoot every day except 1450 fps instead of 1260. That's 1200 ftlbs of muzzle energy. Only 100 ftlbs below Buffalo Bore's 340g +P+ (Same Gun). I shoot a box of the Bear Loads on a regular basis too. So far no bear has submitted for testing. Might be all the noise from my practice. I've also taken to wearing a Pro Ears Headset, in the woods, with the filters off so I can hear every sound (and not loose all my hearing with the first shot).

They do come by when I'm gone. This Summer one bear ripped up a barn door just to tear up the insulation inside it. I hope the one that punctured the fuel tank on my generator got a good mouthfull of Diesel!

[paul h]

Straight clip on ww's water quenched are plenty hard for the 44, I've tested that alloy into glacial silt at 1200 fps from my 480 and get just the slightest upset of the nose and deep penetration. No need for super hard and super hard can shatter

[Superfly]

Take a loook at high speed and low speed babbit run it 50 50 with WW and you may like the results

[W.R.Buchanan]

Now not to get back to this subject but, I realize that there are different brands of Bear Spray, and some are better than others. Bear Spray is a generic term.

I guess the one that got sprayed in the daughters face probably wasn't a very good brand. I also will freely admit that the wind might be a serious factor. But I'm talkin' the $60 a can stuff that is literally like dragons fire and shoots a stream 30 feet long with enough volume that you would have a problem missing with it.. Not some little piss ant bottle of hair spray. Any thing in the general vicinity of the target would light them up big time. This stuff would probably injure a human severely if he got a face full. I know you wouldn't smell much for a long time after that.

I guess maybe you could carry both and use whatever was appropriate for the circumstance. I know for a fact that Bears just like people have different personalities, and the ones that wouldn't be affected as greatly by lightweight Bear Spray are the ones you would recognize earlier in the encounter and draw your gun instead of the Bear Spray. Or if the wind was blowing you'd go to the gun first since you have the ability to think and react appropriately.

But even so your ability to cope with either situation kind of depends on the size of your "Cajones." Someone who doesn't have the stones to stand and deliberately draw his gun and fire an aimed shot under duress has no business guiding people in that arena. Kind of like a PH in Africa that runs when and Elephant or Buff charges would not be the preferred person to take you out in the first place, and damn sure not the guy you want as a backup.

Are you Wyatt Earp or Hussean Bolt?

It takes a serious amount of practice and experience to reach this level, and anyone who disputes this is a fool. The hardness of the boolits will be the least of your problems. In fact I think the style of your boxer/briefs would be a bigger factor here since they have to carry the weight of the afore mentioned Cajones! Or the load of poop, which ever the case may be.



Randy

[paul h]

I have several issues with bear spray.

1 Not all bears are deterred by it, this has been proven over and over.
2 In an honest to goodness charge, if the bear has not been deterred by pepper spray you will not have time to bring a gun into action
3 No matter how powerful the stream, a headwind can direct some of the spray back at you, and being partially or fully incapacitated by pepper spray while dealing with a charging bear is making an already bad situation worse.

It may be useful for a curious bear or one making a bluff charge, but then again they are generally best left alone.

My philosophy is to become proficcient in the use of a powerful handgun and if faced with a charging bear, draw gun, keep shooting until the bear stops moving or you're out of ammo.

[AlaskanGuy]

Well, i have never had to fire my 44, but i dont rattle easily, and i have drawn my gun on a few occasions.... Never had to fire, but totally proficient with the 44 that i have been carrying for the last 15 years.. That gun has a permanant place on my breast bone holster... I never go into the woods without it through december.... It gets a short break from january - march.... I will show ya...84664
84665

I originally bought the gun cuz i wanted a gun that if it got rusty or i dropped in in the river, it wouldnt be as great a loss, but 15 years later, it still goes everywhere... Yes i have better guns then the taurus model 44, but the same thing holds true.. I wont be totally broken hearted if it is lost or gets a bit rusty... Sooooo there is my guide gun.... Go ahead, give me heck about my friend the taurus... :-P

[DougGuy]

Lyman #2 in that Lee mold will be just about as good as you would need. You could water drop that and check it after 2 weeks with pencils, it should be in the bhn 16-20 range easily. The hammer test is a good one too if you have a big hammer.

[paul h]

I know folks like to malign taurus, but the two we've gotten have been solid guns. I got my wife a 605ss as a carry gun, but she never ended up carrying it so it's spent most of the time in the safe. But the last couple years I started shooting it more and after putting on a hogue grip it sees a fair bit of use. No, I'm not using hot 357 loads, mostly because they are painful in a 357 snubbie. The fit and finish and overall tightness of the gun are right up there with Ruger and S&W. I seem to be the limiting factor on accuracy, but I'd say for an iron sighted snubbie it's more than good enough. I'm sure the gun can do better than 3" at 25 yds, but that seems to be my limit with the short sight radius and ramped front blade. I've been tempted to inset some brass bars in the front sight for long range shooting. Always fun to show what can't be done with a little revolver.

[David2011]

Avoid linotype, it is very brittle and shatters with hard impact. Hit a lino boolit with
a hammer if you doubt it.

Bill

Bill, I have a great deal of respect for what you post here and had read this warning before. I have some RCBS 44-250 KTs that came out at 255 grains cast from what was advertised as linotype. They were loaded with 2400 to a Ruger and Contender only load that chronographed velocity of 1600 fps, about 250 fps faster than the manual projected for a revolver. The pistol is a Contender with a Super 14 barrel. They're quite hard so I don't question the alloy.

To test this theory, I tried one of the hot .44 loads on a feral sow that I had already killed with a rifle head shot. I tried to line it up to penetrate as much of the tough parts of a pig as possible. The shot from the .44 entered the right shoulder just ahead of the joint and exited the left ham for a total penetration of about 18"- no tape measure handy. The sow was probably about 200 pounds. The exit was no larger than the entrance but the hole looked like the boolit was still intact.

Granted, this was not a head shot to a bear but the boolit passed through the pig without shattering at very nearly rifle velocity. Just for giggles, that's an IPSC power factor of 408. The recoil isn't THAT bad except for the tang hitting the back of my weak hand index finger- REALLY HARD. I can't get away from the 2 handed autoloader grip on that gun. It's not fun after 4 or 5 rounds.

I have no doubt that lino would probably shatter on a bear head shot. Seat of the pants says 2 parts lino to one part pure lead would make a better boolit for the load I described. A little less 2400 would make it more enjoyable.

David

[Mal Paso]

I guess the one that got sprayed in the daughters face probably wasn't a very good brand. I also will freely admit that the wind might be a serious factor. But I'm talkin' the $60 a can stuff that is literally like dragons fire and shoots a stream 30 feet long with enough volume that you would have a problem missing with it.. Not some little piss ant bottle of hair spray.

I guess maybe you could carry both and use whatever was appropriate for the circumstance.
Randy

It's genuine Mace brand "Bear Pepper Mace" and wasn't cheap. I still keep it in the truck. If it's a casual attack I'll saunter over to the truck and dig it out. ;-)

Nope I'm 50,000 rounds into this 44 Mag thing. Bears are supposed to have sensitive hearing so it works on 2 levels.

I can't imagine what shot will present itself but I have been thinking center mass and hope to catch a piece of spine. At 1450 fps that Keith shouldn't be deflected much by bone and make an exit channel. A bear's brain is an impossibly small target, moving. Any suggestions?

[singleshot]

I do hand out pepper spray to the clients, but once a can accidently went off in our suburban... Couldnt set foot in the suburban for weeks... And i once saw a test video of a brownie rolling in a patch of ground that was sprayed with bear spray... I dont know, i like the ability of lead spray better, and the customers like it better too...

I lived in Montana for 4 years, and outside one of the Nat'l parks there was a sign that said the way to identify Grizzly scat was that it had bells in it and smelled like pepper spray!

[singleshot]

Ok, here's a similar sign, with nearly the same text: http://www.outdooroddities.com/2008/07/23/grizzly-bear-warning-sign/

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well I personally think the operative point here is proficiency . It has been stated many times that a 250 gr Keith Boolit will go clean thru and elk in any direction at 900-1000 FPS. So we'll jump that up to 1100-1200 FPS for Big Bears. These are both midrange and hi midrange load levels. I figure if I'm going out into those places and am going to rely on a large revolver for my defense, that I am going to be able to confidently draw the gun and hit a pie plate sized target every time at 25 yds. in less that 4-5 seconds, and also make 4-5 follow up shots in another 5-6 seconds, with the above mentioned loads.

At Front Sight's defensive pistol classes you get 3.8 seconds to draw and fire two center mass shots at 25 yds. from concealment, so that is a reasonable amount of time.

I can do it most times with my Glock and sometimes I even hit the target in the right place, but it doesn't happen every time. But my point here is that it takes constant dry firing and live firing practice just to get the gun out of a plastic holster that gives the gun up really easily.

My .44 uses a Mernickle Leather Field Carry holster that is designed to protect the gun and as a result holds onto the gun better than the Kydex holsters do. (unless they have some retention feature) This is going to slow the draw down significantly. So the level of speed is never going to get to where it is with the auto pistol. For me,,, It will get adequate, but never to Billy the Kid level.

Then you have to cock the gun, and this is done between positions 4 and 5 as the gun comes from the body to the firing position.

Then as the sights come to bare (bear?) you break the shot. Sights that are easy to pick up in any light are a good thing here, and practicing sight alignment is going to be something that needs practice on a regular basis. This stuff goes away if you don't re-enforce it with regular weekly practice, and the older we get the faster it goes away.

I don't see bullet hardness entering into this equation beyond making boolits that are what we normally shoot in a .44 Special or light magnum loads.

I do see being able to hit the target from the holster in very short order being the biggest challenge. Anything in the way of "normal boolits" is going to make a lasting impression as long as you actually hit the damn target.

If you can't hit the target, then it really doesn't matter what the boolits are made of, now does it?

I say make a pile of boolits from Wheel Weights and be done with it. And then carry the same loads as you shoot everyday. I think you'll be better off like that.

If you make the hits with these boolits and the bear still kills you ,,, you can talk to me about it in hell.

Randy

[AlaskanGuy]

Very good point randy... Practice, practice, practice... Till it is completely second nature. That is why i always use the same holster, same gun and it becomes an extension of you in a small way. Like i said before, i have used the same field gun for so long, it feels like a part of me, i would have to spend a long time with a gun before i could feel this way about another one. If this 44 was lost, i would have to search high and low till i found another just like it.... Did anybody notice the "add on" in the pics of my taurus??? I wont say what it is, but i bet folks could guess.... That is a recent add on.... Also, the other good thing about the taurus, is that it comes ported, and makes a very large flash, is much louder, and reduces recoil.... The perfect way to encourage a brownie to make another choice.... Hopefully...

Any guesses as to the add on??

[W.R.Buchanan]

Pachmayer grips?

For the less fortunate who don't live in Alaska but would like to feel whole, Gunsite offers two classes that will bring you up to speed and work out bugs in your draw and presentation.

One is the Single Action Self Defense Class. This class teaches you how to efficiently use a SA Revolver, by working out all the bugs of the draw and presentation, and actual hitting of a target. Then quickly reloading. It would work for a DA Revolver as well as long as you ran it SA which the more accurate way to do it anyway.

The other class is "The Safari Prep Class" and I think they have several versions of this class. The hot point of this class is shooting at a charging bear, buff, or pickup truck. You also get to shoot at a running target so you can prepare for that eventuality as well.

Getting to shoot at that moving target a few times will kind of prepare you for the eventual intended use of your primary or back up gun.

If at the end of the class you can't hit the moving target with some degree of regularity, then you might rethink putting yourself in harms way and depending on your own skills to save your ****..

I have seen both of these classes on TV on the "Outdoor Channel" and they look like a real good time. So if you can't make that trip to Alaska, this might be the next best thing.

They are not cheap at between $1000 and $1400 for 3-4 days of intense instruction. However this is not unrealistic money for this level of training either. And it is a helluva lot cheaper than a long hospital stay. I am a member of Front Sight so any class they deliver is free to me less external costs, however they don't offer these specialized classes either so I have to go to Gunsite to do them just like anyone else.

I consider these classes to be money well spent simply because NOBODY is born knowing how to do this stuff, and whereas you may eventually figure it out on your own, you will never figure it out to the degree that you will achieve in just 3-4 days of intense training by them that definitely knows what they are doing.

Then,,,you simply go home and practice what you learned. Usually they even have a Syllabus, so if you forget some of the fine points you have a reference to refresh your memory when you practice.

You get a lot for your money and I have never heard anyone complain that they got ripped off after attending one of these classes. You also get to hang out with like minded people and make new friends.

I have to tell all of you that these schools are the absolute best place to learn the basics of shooting anything. I consider them just as important a place to spend you shooting dollars as on new equipment or new guns. It's all part of the package called "the Shooting Sports."

Back in the day, 40 years ago when I was shooting alot and pretty much knew everything, it would have taken a significant amount of pressure to get me to go to school even if one had existed. Spending that kind of money to learn how to shoot when I already knew I was really good was out of the question.

My first Front Sight Class cost me $200, 10 years ago when I was 54. What that class did for me was open my eyes to the fact that I didn't know ship! I finished 39th out of 40 and the only person I beat was this woman who had never shot a gun in her life that I was coaching!

I freely admit this!

More people need to figure out that they aren't as good as they think they are,,, and if they are genuine shooters,,, proceed to do everything they can to get better. And it doesn't matter how old you are, if you are still shooting then you can improve. And if you are that good then you should be teaching others. It's good for the sport.

Everything you do to better yourself makes the sport better as well. What you learn will be transferred to others and in this way we all benefit.

Just look at the information there is on this board. Does it benefit the shooting community?

Well Yeah!

Randy

[lead chucker]

Water quenched WW are plenty hard for 44 mag velocity and accuracy is not an issue at point blank range.

[lead chucker]

Accuracy meaning one inch groups at 50 yards.

[AlaskanGuy]

Yea lead chucker, but you grabbed up all of the wheel weights in the state... :P

[AlaskanGuy]

Guess again Randy... It is not grips... Those are factory...... But there is something else on there if you look closely..... Near the trigger... :groner:

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK the Laser will help. good idea!

Randy

[waksupi]

Lazer grips are fun, but keep in mind, they are only sighted for one distance. If you are sighted in at 10 yards, they are WAY off at 50.

[AlaskanGuy]

Well considering I cant see the laser at 50 yards, the 10-20 yard thing would be my point of aim....

[Mal Paso]

Well at least with every miss the target gets closer and easier to hit. [smilie=l: