Anybody tried cast Boolits in a 1:7 twist AR barrel?

[22_boomer]

I've been given guidance in the art of shooting 22 caliber Boolits in small to medium cartridges with pretty good luck. I happen to have an AR government profile barrel with a 1:7 twist and I would like to try doing some light loads in it using Lyman 225415 cast Boolits. I've already shot these Boolits in my Savage chambered in .222 Remington with some luck but the twist rate in the 24" barrel is 1:14. Another really good attempt was with the 5.7X28 cartridge with the same Boolit and that setup works really well and is a keeper. Now the reason for this project was to shoot 22 caliber Boolits at a 50 yard range with an inexpensive charge of powder in easy-to-find brass. The two powders I have available and seem to work well in the larger .222 cartridge case are AA5744 and Unique. I've only used these powders in the .222 and hope that I can make them work in the .223 case using the barrel with the 1:7 twist. I don't want to bother with trying to make the gas system work and I operate the AR action by hand using a side charging handle -- and the gas port has been plugged. Has anybody here had any luck with cast Boolits in a 1:7 twist AR barrel?

[capt.hollis]

I've been given guidance in the art of shooting 22 caliber Boolits in small to medium cartridges with pretty good luck. I happen to have an AR government profile barrel with a 1:7 twist and I would like to try doing some light loads in it using Lyman 225415 cast Boolits. I've already shot these Boolits in my Savage chambered in .222 Remington with some luck but the twist rate in the 24" barrel is 1:14. Another really good attempt was with the 5.7X28 cartridge with the same Boolit and that setup works really well and is a keeper. Now the reason for this project was to shoot 22 caliber Boolits at a 50 yard range with an inexpensive charge of powder in easy-to-find brass. The two powders I have available and seem to work well in the larger .222 cartridge case are AA5744 and Unique. I've only used these powders in the .222 and hope that I can make them work in the .223 case using the barrel with the 1:7 twist. I don't want to bother with trying to make the gas system work and I operate the AR action by hand using a side charging handle -- and the gas port has been plugged. Has anybody here had any luck with cast Boolits in a 1:7 twist AR barrel? I'm using a blackout right now , and having leading issues with epoxy coated bullets. Next shot will be powder coat and Alox coated bullets with a gas check. I have friends that are shooting 55 gr lead cast for there 5.56 AR's and having good luck with the powder coat plus a gas check . A gas check is a must.

[lwknight]

You probably would have to use linotype water dropped with a twist like that just to hold the rifling.
The bullet would be spun up from zero to O.M.G. rpm in no time flat since you can't really reduce the load and still work the action reliably.

[22_boomer]

You probably would have to use linotype water dropped with a twist like that just to hold the rifling.
The bullet would be spun up from zero to O.M.G. rpm in no time flat since you can't really reduce the load and still work the action reliably.

I knew from the start that the twist rate was too much and had planned on using a lighter powder charge to keep the velocities down. I disabled the gas system and I'm using a side charging handle to operate the bolt and carrier. I got some load data from Ramshot for the AA5744 powder for 55 grain boolits. They gave me velocity ranges starting with 1950fps using 11.2gr of 5744 which is what I will work with. The boolits will be the 225415 Lymans cast with linotype that are sized to .225", gas checked and Alox coated. I have both the aluminum gas checks and the copper gas checks and I'd like to try them both. I have to keep the cost down and it's the reason I'm using the 1:7 twist barrel -- it's the only extra barrel I have.

I would also like to try the Aliant Unique powder. I found some info in the Lyman Reloading Handbook for the .223 using the 225415 boolit set to an OAL of 2.06". The powder charges run from 6.8gr (1900fps) to 9.5gr (2300fps) but this is listed for a 24" barrel with no twist rate stated so I'll have to start at the lower end and work up. Again, I don't need to operate the gas system so this is just to see if the bullets will work in this barrel.

[22_boomer]

I'm using a blackout right now , and having leading issues with epoxy coated bullets. Next shot will be powder coat and Alox coated bullets with a gas check. I have friends that are shooting 55 gr lead cast for there 5.56 AR's and having good luck with the powder coat plus a gas check . A gas check is a must.

I'd love to know what the twist rate is on your friend's 5.56 AR's. There is a lot of reloading info on cast .223 boolits but no reference to shooting them in AR's. I've read about the powder coating but I don't know if I can afford the equipment to do that. I did read the test done by one of the fellows here on Cast Boolits (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156326-AR-15-500-Round-Cast-Bullet-Test) but he was using an AR barrel with a 1:12 twist rate which is what I would love to use but it seems the retro-AR guys have bought up most of those barrels and the new commercial barrels are a bit too expensive for me. The fellow that did the test was actually looking to operate the gas system and since I'm not maybe I'll have some luck.

[fish0123]

I use the rcbs 22-055-sp gas checked. 19.5 grns IMR4895 with 1/2 grn dacron filler. Tula primers. Water cooled wheel weights around 20 brinell hardness with Randy rate puke green lube. With iron sights I get 1" groups at 50 yards and can plink steel plates from 200 yards consistently. This is a SW MP 15, I think it is a 1/8 twist. No leading at all and have shot about 2500 rounds through it. cycles 100% fine and the bolt locks back on the last shot.

Forgot to mention this load chronos at 2127 FPS

[22_boomer]

I use the rcbs 22-055-sp gas checked. 19.5 grns IMR4895 with 1/2 grn dacron filler. Tula primers. Water cooled wheel weights around 20 brinell hardness with Randy rate puke green lube. With iron sights I get 1" groups at 50 yards and can plink steel plates from 200 yards consistently. This is a SW MP 15, I think it is a 1/8 twist. No leading at all and have shot about 2500 rounds through it. cycles 100% fine and the bolt locks back on the last shot.

Forgot to mention this load chronos at 2127 FPS

Dang! That sounds really good. I just received a flyer from Midway and there is a M4 carbine barrel with 1:9 twist pretty cheap. I'll need to see what I can do with the barrel I got first and then think about changing it. I'm glad that you told me how well your setup has accepted cast bullets -- makes me feel a little better about this project.

[blueeyephil]

22_boomer. You can powder coat without an expensive setup. You can do the piglet method using lacquer thiner to put the powder in solution. Then you basically tumble until the thiner flashes off. You drop them on a screen to air dry then bake. I've got some coated but waiting on my sizer die so I can put the gas checks on.

[oldandslow]

22b, 9/29/13

I shoot cast .223 boolits in my 1:7 twist LMT AR without problems. It took a lot of experimenting but now it's boringly reliable.

I use a NOE 70 grain mold which drops at 72 grains. I use a wheel-weight alloy of 2.2% antimony, 0.4% tin and the rest lead. I heat treat and water drop to a BHN of 15. I size to 0.225" with a Lee push-through sizer and seat a copper gas check at the same time. I pan lube and load the cases after minimal flaring with a Lyman m-dye. Having the cases all the same length is important and chamfering inside the case neck is necessary to keep from shaving the boolits as they are seated. I had to play around with the COAL as I was getting significant boolit dinging/deformity when chambering from the mags. A COAL of 1.90" seems to work best for me with little or no boolit deformity. The velocities I use are in the 1900-2000 ft/second range because at any faster velocity the boolits would become unstable and accuracy falls off. I'm getting 2.4 MOA at present. At 2200 ft/second the nose would twist off the bases due to the rapid barrel twist. I use 4064 powder as that was all I was able to get my hands on during the recent hoarding. I recently got a jug of 748 and need to work up a load with that powder. At the reduced velocity compared to FMJ's I had to put in a Wolf reduced power buffer spring as I was getting about 3% short stroking with the standard spring. No problems with shortstroking with the reduced power spring. I've got about 600 rounds through the AR with no leading of the chamber, barrel, gas tube or bolt-carrier group.

There are several others CB posters who pointed me in the right direction with cast boolit AR reloading. It is really not any different than casting for other calibers if you go through the experimentation for your particular load and rifle. Good luck.

best wishes- oldandslow

[capt.hollis]

I'd love to know what the twist rate is on your friend's 5.56 AR's. There is a lot of reloading info on cast .223 boolits but no reference to shooting them in AR's. I've read about the powder coating but I don't know if I can afford the equipment to do that. I did read the test done by one of the fellows here on Cast Boolits (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156326-AR-15-500-Round-Cast-Bullet-Test) but he was using an AR barrel with a 1:12 twist rate which is what I would love to use but it seems the retro-AR guys have bought up most of those barrels and the new commercial barrels are a bit too expensive for me. The fellow that did the test was actually looking to operate the gas system and since I'm not maybe I'll have some luck.i have a 1/8 twist barrel. As of now I'm casting 155-312's out of a lee mold . I have attempted the piglet method with not much success, but I must be doing something wrong as compared to the rest of the guys that are having success. I am having success with a 9mm bullet epoxy coated, but not with this AR.

[22_boomer]

22b, 9/29/13

I shoot cast .223 boolits in my 1:7 twist LMT AR without problems. It took a lot of experimenting but now it's boringly reliable.

I use a NOE 70 grain mold which drops at 72 grains. I use a wheel-weight alloy of 2.2% antimony, 0.4% tin and the rest lead. I heat treat and water drop to a BHN of 15. I size to 0.225" with a Lee push-through sizer and seat a copper gas check at the same time. I pan lube and load the cases after minimal flaring with a Lyman m-dye. Having the cases all the same length is important and chamfering inside the case neck is necessary to keep from shaving the boolits as they are seated. I had to play around with the COAL as I was getting significant boolit dinging/deformity when chambering from the mags. A COAL of 1.90" seems to work best for me with little or no boolit deformity. The velocities I use are in the 1900-2000 ft/second range because at any faster velocity the boolits would become unstable and accuracy falls off. I'm getting 2.4 MOA at present. At 2200 ft/second the nose would twist off the bases due to the rapid barrel twist. I use 4064 powder as that was all I was able to get my hands on during the recent hoarding. I recently got a jug of 748 and need to work up a load with that powder. At the reduced velocity compared to FMJ's I had to put in a Wolf reduced power buffer spring as I was getting about 3% short stroking with the standard spring. No problems with shortstroking with the reduced power spring. I've got about 600 rounds through the AR with no leading of the chamber, barrel, gas tube or bolt-carrier group.

There are several others CB posters who pointed me in the right direction with cast boolit AR reloading. It is really not any different than casting for other calibers if you go through the experimentation for your particular load and rifle. Good luck.

best wishes- oldandslow

I'm glad to see somebody has had some luck with the 1:7 twist barrel. I know what you mean about the powder supplies -- I'm going with the powders I have on hand for now. I have a little different situation in that I don't need to operate the gas system and it's disabled since I have a charging handle attached to the carrier -- kinda like a straight pull bolt action. My bullets are the Lyman 225415 at 55gr. Your velocity is what I hope to get out of these boolits since I feel I'll have the same problem as you with the boolits getting their heads twisted off with that 1:7 twist rate. Right now my AOL length is 2.09" -- just starting out with what the Lyman reloading manual said but the Lyman info was most likely for a bolt action. I'll check the boolits for cuts due to the jump from the magazine through the feed ramps.

[22_boomer]

i have a 1/8 twist barrel. As of now I'm casting 155-312's out of a lee mold . I have attempted the piglet method with not much success, but I must be doing something wrong as compared to the rest of the guys that are having success. I am having success with a 9mm bullet epoxy coated, but not with this AR.

I will be honest, I actually have not cast any boolits yet but have been lucky enough to know a very generous person that has been sending me the bullets. I just need to check them for problems then lube, size and add the gas checks. I'm sorry but I have no idea what the piglet method is but from some of the info I have gotten so far -- casting is a real science and hope you have great luck in future with your AR.

[22_boomer]

22_boomer. You can powder coat without an expensive setup. You can do the piglet method using lacquer thiner to put the powder in solution. Then you basically tumble until the thiner flashes off. You drop them on a screen to air dry then bake. I've got some coated but waiting on my sizer die so I can put the gas checks on.

I didn't realize that you could powder coat that way -- what temperature do you bake the bullets at? What is meant by the piglet method -- is that actually the ID of one of the fellows on here that developed the easy powder coat method?

[Moonie]

Unique is a wonderful powder and it will do about everything you want in an AR, with the exception of cycling the bolt. Unique does not produce enough gas volume to cycle the bolt of an AR. I use 16gr of H4895 with a 55 or 62gr boolit in my sons AR upper with an intermediate length gas port. I have not chronographed this load yet.

[blueeyephil]

22_boomer. Piglet is a method of tumble coating powder coat paint. I believe it is named after a member here. I've spent hours reading threads about epoxy vs powder coating vs Hi-tech on and on. Decided to give this method a try because you don't have to spend much to try it.

You use lacquer thinner and the powder coat. Very small amounts for a 100 or so bullets. You swirl, tumble until the thinner evaporates and at that point, the paint sticks to the boolits. There is a point when you need to dump the boolits out on a screen to dry. The sound changes a bit about that time. You let them dry and then bake. Most powders have to be 400 for 10 min. That's after the bullets heat up so actually longer. They may need two coats. Many people use cheap Harbor Freight powder but a better quality of powder is supposed to work better. I found a good description of the process on a 300 blackout forum. You should be able to google and find that pretty quick.

I will say there is a learning curve. One bit of advice. Use small amounts of thinner and powder. A little goes a very long way.

I've shot 357 mags so far pc'd that always leaded bad for me. Actually cleaned out the bore for me. I haven't shot in my AR yet because I didn't have gas checks or proper sizer. Got those now so soon I hope. But I'm a busy busy guy so it might be awhile yet.

There are lots of detractors of every lube method. You have to try for yourself to find the best way for you.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/02/ru2uqury.jpg

[22_boomer]

Unique is a wonderful powder and it will do about everything you want in an AR, with the exception of cycling the bolt. Unique does not produce enough gas volume to cycle the bolt of an AR. I use 16gr of H4895 with a 55 or 62gr boolit in my sons AR upper with an intermediate length gas port. I have not chronographed this load yet.
Moonie,
I was very surprised at the lack of recoil and muzzle blast when using Unique in my .222 bolt action compared to the 5744 powder. I was using a recommended medium load of Unique and the same for the 5744 powder. Not the same amount of powder for each, just in the same range of minimum to maximum recommended charges. The bullets had the same POI without adjusting the scope at 50 yards which was a surprise. The AR I'm using to test with is actually manually operated with a side charging handle and no gas system so I can play with lighter loads but I am limited by the fact that the barrel is a standard Gov. Profile 1:7 twist and I had no idea as to how it would affect the bullets. I used the Lyman 225415 bullets over 12.0gr and 12.5gr of 5744 and the bullets shot ok but nothing like the 22 Bator bullets or the Lyman 225462 bullets. A picture of the target for them is shown below. The upper group is the lighter 22 Bator and the lower group on the bull's-eye is the 225462 bullets. I didn't adjust the scope, I just aimed a bit to the left to put them on target. As you can see there were a couple of flyers. I shot 11 of the Bator bullets and 9 of the 225462 bullets.
http://imageshack.us/a/img443/3770/9xf3.jpg
The bullets were all copper gas checked and lubed with Alox. I'm still just in the starting stages of shooting cast bullets so I don't want to change much each time I go shooting.

[22_boomer]

22_boomer. Piglet is a method of tumble coating powder coat paint. I believe it is named after a member here. I've spent hours reading threads about epoxy vs powder coating vs Hi-tech on and on. Decided to give this method a try because you don't have to spend much to try it.

You use lacquer thinner and the powder coat. Very small amounts for a 100 or so bullets. You swirl, tumble until the thinner evaporates and at that point, the paint sticks to the boolits. There is a point when you need to dump the boolits out on a screen to dry. The sound changes a bit about that time. You let them dry and then bake. Most powders have to be 400 for 10 min. That's after the bullets heat up so actually longer. They may need two coats. Many people use cheap Harbor Freight powder but a better quality of powder is supposed to work better. I found a good description of the process on a 300 blackout forum. You should be able to google and find that pretty quick.

I will say there is a learning curve. One bit of advice. Use small amounts of thinner and powder. A little goes a very long way.

I've shot 357 mags so far pc'd that always leaded bad for me. Actually cleaned out the bore for me. I haven't shot in my AR yet because I didn't have gas checks or proper sizer. Got those now so soon I hope. But I'm a busy busy guy so it might be awhile yet.

There are lots of detractors of every lube method. You have to try for yourself to find the best way for you.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/02/ru2uqury.jpg

Phil,
Thanks for setting me straight on what the Piglet Method is. Since you brought up Harbor Freight, I understand they sell a tumbler that can be used to coat the bullets -- is that correct. I would like to get into some of the more fancy ways of doing bullets but I hate to change too much since I'm just starting out. I guess I could collect the stuff and work it in after I have more luck with the cast bullets.

[popper]

22 boomer - why not just enlarge the gas port by 0.010" and put an adjustable block on it so you can shoot poppers and full load?

[22_boomer]

22 boomer - why not just enlarge the gas port by 0.010" and put an adjustable block on it so you can shoot poppers and full load?

This was originally a plinker project -- light powder charge, kinda low velocity -- nothing that would even come close to operating a gas system. There is no gas tube on this upper and the upper receiver was modified to accept a charging handle on the right hand side. It actually works very well and I like it -- I can drop the brass right where I want it. The fellow that has been helping me asked if I might up the powder charge and see what happens and I told him I have another AR rifle that I would love to try and fully operate the gas system shooting the Lyman 225415 bullets. I've got to run some powder charge tests in my bullet trap to see how far I need to go to get the system to work.

[wistlepig1]

Dang! That sounds really good. I just received a flyer from Midway and there is a M4 carbine barrel with 1:9 twist pretty cheap. I'll need to see what I can do with the barrel I got first and then think about changing it. I'm glad that you told me how well your setup has accepted cast bullets -- makes me feel a little better about this project.

Boomer, I picked up one of those barrels about 2 months ago. For the money I have been pleased with it so far. With J words it would shoot 1-11/8" @100yds and nothing special bulk bullets. How ever I have been trying to get it to shoot casts, No joy in mudville yet. With brand name J words I think I could get in the 3/4" area. I have 2 black guns that will do Sub 1/2" all day long but they dont have $100 barrels. Good luck with your new barrel and break it in right!

[22_boomer]

Boomer, I picked up one of those barrels about 2 months ago. For the money I have been pleased with it so far. With J words it would shoot 1-11/8" @100yds and nothing special bulk bullets. How ever I have been trying to get it to shoot casts, No joy in mudville yet. With brand name J words I think I could get in the 3/4" area. I have 2 black guns that will do Sub 1/2" all day long but they dont have $100 barrels. Good luck with your new barrel and break it in right!

Yesterday I decided to try and get the gas system to work on my SP1 upper with cast bullet loads. Started out with 16.0 gr of H4198 and the rifle worked like a champ and loaded the next round. So now I have a problem -- shooting the gas operated upper is not as cheap as shooting my manually operated upper. I'm going to load up some bullets and try them in the SP1 upper because it has a 1:12 twist where my manually operated upper is 1:7 twist. The 1:7 twist barrel seems to shoot the 225462 and Lee Bator bullets really nice and just ok with the 225415 bullets per the last tests. I don't know what I would prefer -- semi-auto or manual but I will shoot the semi-auto just to see how much accuracy I can get out of it. Only problem with the SP1 upper is it has an old 4X scope on the carry hand and I need all the eye-help I can find.