Ladle Pour VS Bottom Pour...

[BCB]

I recently read an advertisement about a mold maker (don’t remember the name of the mold company) that indicated that their molds were for ladle pour only. Why would this be? Are ladle poured boolits more consistent and accurate than bottom poured boolits? Another reason? Thanks...BCB

[montana_charlie]

Try hard to remember the name of that mould maker. If I need a mould, I may contact him.
CM

[Bret4207]

Oh oh. Time to head for the bomb shelter........

[kodiak1]

Bret I hear you there!!!!!!!
Ken.

[Dale53]

I will NOT rise to the bait, I will not rise to the bait, I will not....:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

Dale53

[shooter93]

I'll probably regret this but.....the answer is yes and no. And what level of accuracy you're looking for is also a factor. Probably...a single cavity mold that is ladle poured will give you the highest percentage of good bullets. That being said....I bottom pour 99% of my bullets into 4 cavity molds. I only use custom molds which makes all the difference I believe....as an example I cast several hundred 270 gr. bullets for my 38-55. The mold is a 4 cavity from LBT. While I do get varying weights...each cavity casts within 1 to 1.5 grains of all bullets from that same cavity and never over .005 out of round. So what I end up with is 4 times as many bullets that are just 4 groups. The high to low of all four cavities isn't enough for me to worry about for hunting, plinking etc. For a full blown...lets go for the record match rifle I use single cavity molds but I still like to bottom pour...it just seems to work better for ME. I only cast about half a pot before refilling to keep head pressure reasonable. That's the short version...I started it...now the rest of you jump into the fray...lol.

[454PB]

I like ladles so much, I've started collecting them. Sort of like the non-shooting gun collectors do.

[GLL]

Duck ! I just took a real pounding on this one ! :) :)

Jerry

[WBH]

OK. I bottom pour bullets under 300 grains.........ladle pour all others above that.

[Jon K]

Me 2, 300 and under(smokeleess)- bottom pour. 300+ BP boolits ladle pour.

Jon

[BCB]

Hmmmm…

From the sounds of the posts so far, I think I inadvertently opened a can of worms, or kicked a hornet’s nest, or am trying to feed a rabid dog, or…

I didn’t mean to do that, I was being sincere with my question as I am still a novice of 8-10 years of casting…

Oh well, guess I sort of know the answer, now!!! May be a matter of personal taste (pour)?...BCB

[Bret4207]

This argument has been going on since the first bottom pour appeared I'd guess. I'm a ladle man, born and bred. Bottom pours are tools of satan as far as I'm concerned. Could be I feel that way because the onlyist BP I ever used was a Lee. (I think I used a BP Saeco once, but not sure anymore) Anyway, the Lee turned me off to the idea of a bottom pour. I couldn't feel/see what I was doing. Maybe if I'd started with a BP or shelled out the bucks for a good one I'd feel different.

That does it for the "tactile" end of things. As for accuracy, I don't know for a fact it makes a difference which you use. I do know if I was going for the money at some big shoot I'd be using a ladle, a single cavity mould and weighing each boolit before and after sizing. Not knowing would drive me crazy.

Your specific question about the mould maker may be the result of his opinion of bottom pours or experience with them. Could also be he doesn't want anyone asking if he can cut them for a Master-Caster type machine.

[9.3X62AL]

I do both types of casting, ladle and bottom-pour. Percentage-wise of the two methods, I would estimate 5%-95%.

The RCBS bottom-pour was a LARGE upgrade from the Lee furnaces, but the Lees are serviceable and can be enhanced easily. In the hallowed tradition of his Asperly Aimless, ol' Buckshot has a small set of Vise-Grips clamped vertically on the spout rod of his Lee-Ko-Matic furnace, for added heft to slow the stalagmite formation process.

A large factor affecting acquisition of the RCBS furnace was its price--$50 NIB--from a gun shop now out of business (like so many in southern California). Knowing now what I didn't know then, I would happily pay the $275-$325 prices being charged for the item now. They are easily worth their price difference vs. the Lee.

[Dale53]

I WILL rise to the bait (so much for resolutions:mrgreen:). I can cast match quality bullets with either ladle or bottom pour. I can keep my 200+ bullets +or- .2 of a grain with a custom single cavity mould. With my BPCR bullets, +or- .6 of a grain seems to be the norm. My BPCR has done 6" groups (10 shots) at 500 yards in front of witnesses (with a scope off a bench).

I am strictly a bottom pour man as I can do as well as using a ladle and do it in MUCH less time. I shoot LOTS and spending all afternoon casting 3 bullets (exaggeration, of course) is NOT my idea of a good time.

In my experience, those who ladle cast do it because they can't figure out how to bottom pour cast. SO THERE!!:mrgreen::mrgreen:

No offense intended... I have very good friends who ladle cast and they are still my friends:-D.

Dale53

[AnthonyB]

Dale is right - I ladle cast because I can't figure out the bottom pour. Boolits don't fill out well, and when they stars align and I do get good fillout I have lots of small surface defects. I can ladle the same alloy and make pretty boolits, so that's what I do. I have a 90lb Magma BP that worked great for me one afternoon a few years ago with the BD45ACP six cavity and I'm still shooting those boolits, so I know it can be done and it is faster on occasion. Tony

[BABore]

Odds are the mold maker machines his sprue plate holes to match the needs of a ladle. Probably the only difference. Bottom pour pots can use a smaller hole. Ladle pour, especially if you trickle it in from above, generally needs a slightly larger hole. Even more so for larger boolits.

[montana_charlie]

In my experience, those who ladle cast do it because they can't figure out how to bottom pour cast. SO THERE!!:mrgreen::mrgreen:

I plead 'guilty'.
When I was dipper-casting round ball and Maxi-Balls from a ten-pound pot on a hotplate, I thought a bottom pour pot would be Nirvana. When I finally happened upon a 'good deal' on a recently-repaired Lyman Master Caster, I packed it away with my other tools...and headed out for Vietnam.

Several years later I (briefly) returned to casting...still round ball and MaxiBalls...but another overseas move put everything in storage before I had developed any proficiency with that bottom spout.

Now, I cast on a 'regular basis'. Not frequent, but regular. As I make bullets from a new mould, I use the dipper until I find out what the mould likes. With those requirements known, I then try the bottom spout, again.

I have four moulds that cover my range of needs. All are high-quality tools, and none of them are particularly 'fussy'. They are all single-cavity, and the smallest is 500 grains. The only one that gave me trouble started working well when I finally got it truly clean.

No matter what I do with these four moulds...moulds that produce excellent bullets without much farting around...I can't get a keeper from the 'drain hole'.

Lucky for me, I don't shoot enough to really need Nirvana.

CM

[Sundogg1911]

I am a hands down Bottom pour Guy. When I cast, I cast a lot. I can't imagine how long it would take if I was ladle casting. When I stir and flux with a bottom pour, I leave some dross as a barrier on the top of the alloy to keep the oxidation down. If I used a ladle, i'd have to flux way more often. (Which would also slow me down) I've never really had an issue with mould fill out or inclusions. (no more than I would with a ladle) I admit I am not a benchrest shooter and my accuracy is fairly close range (IPSC mostly) I really guess it's a matter of choice. I think that a lot of guys that go back to ladle casting do it because that's what they're used to, or they've had back luck with the Lee Pots. (I mostly use my Magma pot, but I don't think you can beat the price of a Lee 20 pounder for about 60 bucks) Do you guy's that ladle pour really see that much (if any) increase in accuracy that it's worth all the time that it takes to ladle cast? Don't get me wrong, i'm not bashing people that choose to cast with that method, I just don't really see an advantage to it. All I know is i'll never switch. (And i'm pretty sure I haven't converted any of you Ladle Guys with my post) :drinks:

[Old Ironsights]

For 90+% of things I prefer Bottom Pour.

But I have a Ladle in my SHTF kit, along with an "everyting" single cavity mould, 1K primers and a Lee Loader.

Melt in a tin can and ladle when necessary.

[Bret4207]

Re-Sundogg1911's question- I don't bottom pour so can't answer to accuracy, but the ladle is pretty quick for me. With a single cav I can get at least 100 good ones per hour, 2 cav-200-150, 4 cav at least 350 and a 6 banger I think I can do better than 600 on a good day when everythings right. On a bad day, I'm lucky to get ONE GOOD STINKIN' BOOLIT!!! I think most guys flux WAY too often. You're cooling the mix and wasting time. Get the mould hot so the boolits are just shading to frosty and go like crazy. Good hot lead and a clean mould will usually give me 90+% keepers or higher. My biggest time loss is Lee's that collect lead under the sprue plate, and Lymans that tend to collect a spot on the faces.

I agree with Dale of whoever said ladle men just never really learned to use a BP. I don't have the time or $$ right now to try. Maybe someday I'll have the time........HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHH! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Right.:coffee:

[montana_charlie]

Do you guy's that ladle pour really see that much (if any) increase in accuracy that it's worth all the time that it takes to ladle cast?
That is a reasonable question...asked in a civilized fashion.
I would like to respond, but must admit that more widely experienced shooters may be able to do it better than I.

I have eliminated one of my four moulds from consideration because I don't have faith in the bullet design. But, someday, I may try it again.

With the others, I have yet to find the perfect load. I shot mould #1 until I was satisfied it had potential for reasonable accuracy from my gun, then moved on to #2. I spent quite a bit of time on the second, and had (at least) one satisfyingly tiny, sub-MOA group. Knowing it could be made to shoot released me to give #3 a try, so 'the quest' is focused (right now) on that design.

Since I am trying to discover an accurate load for the design, I feel I cannot leave anything to chance...if I have the means to eliminate variables.
Therefore, every bullet MUST be as perfect as any I can produce.
That starts with visual perfection (with some weighing later on)...and I have yet to see one of those from the bottom spout.

If (when) the day comes that I know that a given load can be reliably expected to produce the desired group, I can then try shooting bullets that are less than perfect...just to see how much difference it makes.

I admit that the rather poor examples I have falling out of the drain hole MAY perform reasonably well when everything else is properly done. But I have not yet reached the point where I am willing to 'waste time' on them.

"Waste time?", you ask.

Yes, well...I can cast bullets most anytime I choose.
It is finding free time to shoot, on a day when weather conditions are optimum (so the load, not my wind doping ability is being tested)...which is the 'rare' thing for me.
I refuse to spend a windless afternoon throwing plinker-quality lead at the paper, when the session is all about 'the quest'.
CM

[Lloyd Smale]

sundog and i agree on everything with the exception that i think alot of the guys that bad mouth bottom pour would do much better if they bought themselves a good pot like a lyman rcbs or better yet a magma. They tend to meter lead better and be more consistant in maintaining temperature. They will drip some too but nothing like a lee. Theres a good use for lee pots too. A guy could buy a good bottome pour pot and feed it with a 20lb lee dipper pot. Thats about a nessesity if you are going to put in long session as i dont have the paitents to wait for a pot to remelt lead and if you add lead as you go even in a good pot. (unless its one of the huge magmas) your bullet quality is going to suffer. Its a rare session that i dont have at least two pots going and sometimes even 3.

[GLynn41]

LBT --I think as to dipper ing-- as for me i use a 20 pound Lee dipping pot all the way

[floodgate]

Bottom pour only works for me on days divisible by three - except Feb. 3, my birthday. Other days, ladle-dipping works best, except those divisble by seven, when NOTHING works!

Random question?: when they built the pentagram,...uh, PENTAGON - five sides, five rings, five stories (I walked through it with my Dad in 1942, when the cement was still damp, before he went overseas) - was it to keep the Devils out...or to keep them IN?

(Am I getting too political? OK, I'll shut up.)

floodgate

[fireflyfather]

I'm pretty sure it's because they wanted to use all available space on the plot of land they had (later more became available).

[AnthonyB]

It is also a very efficient shape - a person can walk to any point from any other point in about seven minutes at a leisurely pace. Not bad for a building than houses about 25K people every day. Feel free to contact me if you are in the area and want a tour. Tony

[TAWILDCATT]

back to the question:some molds I believe make better bullets with one than the other.I used a ladle until I got a gilbert caster and modified it for bullet molds.[still have it and soldier molds.]then I got a lyman.now I have a Saeco and Lee.the Saeco has lost its thermo.hay!its 30 plus yrs old.I just may convert to double pot.
I just bought a Lyman ladle as mine disapeared when I moved.I'm a collector of every thing.:coffee: :Fire: :coffee:

[floodgate]

Anthony B:

Yeah, but those 72* and 144* angles at the corridor intersections always gave me vertigo, when I was in and out in the 1960's. Then there was the parking lot maze. A cabby once told me "Keep the entrance you want in your rear-view mirror, and you'll get there eventually." It worked!

floodgate