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famdoc2892
09-25-2013, 09:09 AM
Recently worked up a series of test loads for 30-06 using Lyman 31141 over IMR 4198 with disappointing results. Had to test at 50 yds, and "group" sizes were still minute-of-pie plate! The rest of the setup is:

Winchester FL-sized brass,
CCI 200 LR primer,
31141 out of (WW+2% tin)+ 50% Pb
Gator GC,
sized .311,
MML pan-lubed,
2.970" OAL
Lee Factory crimp

Shooting out of Rem 700 with known MOA (jacketed) accuracy.

Any suggestions on how to debug/diagnose this problem? The reputation of this boolit is better than that...

Thanks in advance!

RickinTN
09-25-2013, 09:33 AM
I'll take a guess here. You didn't say whether your bullets were air cooled or water-dropped or what charges of 4198 you were using. I've been working with a Remington "Sportsman 78" which is for all practical purposes a model 700. I've not been able to get acceptable accuracy with an alloy as soft as you are using. I would suggest using an alloy of clip-on WW + 2% tin and water dropping or heat treating and leave out the pure. I would suggest starting at about 25 grains and working up to 30'ish grains or until accuracy (which hopefully you've found somewhere in there) begins to suffer.
I'm sure someone with more experience will be along soon with their suggestions but the above is where I would start.

Good Luck,
Rick

famdoc2892
09-25-2013, 09:42 AM
Thanks, Rick! They are indeed AC, and I'm using that particular alloy from Larry Gibson's recommendation for a hunting boolit. To be fair, I recall he mentioned using it in 30-30, I can't recall if he mentioned using it in 30-06. I do intend to hunt with it, and wonder if the WC or heat treatment will affect my terminal boolit expansion?

45 2.1
09-25-2013, 10:00 AM
Winchester FL-sized brass,
CCI 200 LR primer,
31141 out of (WW+2% tin)+ 50% Pb Leave out the tin and water drop
Gator GC,
sized .311,
MML pan-lubed, Try BAC lube
2.970" OAL
Lee Factory crimp No need to crimp at this level

Try a different powder..... you haven't said what velocity you're after, but a top book load of Unique will get you to about 1,800 fps range with a lot better accuracy.

famdoc2892
09-25-2013, 10:05 AM
Thanks, 45 2.1! If you'll humor me, why leave out the tin? I need to fill out the mold consistently, and don't understand it's adverse effect.

As for velocity, I'm more worried about accuracy but would like to be in the 2000-2200 fps range.

Prospector Howard
09-25-2013, 10:24 AM
Slow it down. It's hard for me to get good groups past 1800 fps in my 30-06 with cast boolits.

Larry Gibson
09-25-2013, 11:20 AM
You don't mention the loads of 4198 you used?

Alloy is fine, leave the tin and air cool them. If you need to use 4198 then start at 23-24 gr (agree with excess650) and use a 3/4 gr Dacron filler. You should get very good hunting accuracy upwards of 1800 - 1950 fps which is good enough for deer to 200 yards. You'll need to clean the barrel every 7-8 shots to maintain best accuracy though.

Suggest a switch to a medium burning powder such as 3031, 4895, 4064 if you can find/get some. Use the Dacron filler with them also.

famdoc2892
09-25-2013, 12:01 PM
All very good advice, I started around 25 grains in the 4198 and had loads up to 30 grains. Accuracy comes first for my hunting purposes, I'll happily slow it down to 1800 to get it! My seating depth was that recommended in Lyman #49 for the 31141 boolit, but maybe room for improvement. I'm going to clean the rifle thoroughly before any further testing, I thought I had all the copper out but may have leaded the barrel a little in the testing. I have 4895 but didn't find it listed for 31141 in 30-06, so moved to the 4198 instead. Haven't tried Dacron yet, but pretty sure I have some, so that may make it into my next test loads.

fourarmed
09-25-2013, 12:34 PM
Any time I start with a new boolit and/or a new rifle, here is what I do before I load a single round: Close the bolt on an empty chamber, and run a rod (I use a brass 1/4" one.) down the bore until it contacts the bolt. Then I wrap a piece of masking tape around the rod even with the crown of the barrel. I pull the rod out, open the bolt, and drop in the boolit I hope to use, pushing it firmly into the rifling. Then I run the rod back down the barrel until it contacts the boolit. Using the inside jaws of my caliper, I measure from the crown to the masking tape. I now know the maximum overall length of a cartridge with that boolit in that rifle. In this way, I have often found that some of my boolits in that caliber are completely unsuitable for that rifle, either because they have to be seated too long or too deeply.

Remington 700 barrels I have tested usually have pretty short throats, but if your round chambers easily, you may need to seat it out farther.

MtGun44
09-25-2013, 01:28 PM
I wonder if the factory crimp might be damaging the boolit. I'd just remove the flare
to straight.

Bill

45 2.1
09-25-2013, 05:54 PM
Thanks, 45 2.1! If you'll humor me, why leave out the tin? I need to fill out the mold consistently, and don't understand it's adverse effect.

As for velocity, I'm more worried about accuracy but would like to be in the 2000-2200 fps range.

1st question....why leave out the tin. Answer: tin is a crutch for casters, the WW/Pb alloy casts fine at about 700 to 725 degrees as it is. With the WW/Pb alloy, the antimony is about 2%... if you add 2% tin, you basically have a balanced alloy (~ equal % of each) in which the antimony's grain structure growth necessary for hardening is severely retarded leaving a softer alloy.

2nd question..... If you want in that range, you need to go with medium to slow burning rifle powders.

MT Chambers
09-25-2013, 06:19 PM
I don't know about tin being a crutch as I use lots of it in hunting bullets because for me it prevents the bullets from shattering on the bones of big animals, whether I'm using a soft alloy for BP or harder for more velocity. Try snapping a slender piece of hard alloy, say 1/8" dia...then try to snap a 1/8" piece of 95/5 solder or other tin. I gotta have this right for the big animals I chase around up here in Northern Kanada.

45 2.1
09-25-2013, 07:12 PM
I don't know about tin being a crutch as I use lots of it in hunting bullets because for me it prevents the bullets from shattering on the bones of big animals, whether I'm using a soft alloy for BP or harder for more velocity. Try snapping a slender piece of hard alloy, say 1/8" dia...then try to snap a 1/8" piece of 95/5 solder or other tin. I gotta have this right for the big animals I chase around up here in Northern Kanada.

Different applications............ the tin in his first alloy was supposed to do that, but in reality it helps casting and degrades alloy effectiveness. The WW/Pb alloy water dropped expands nicely in all suitable hunting loads as is while providing a harder skin and soft core. Tin/Pb alloys do fine for hollow point, hollow base and big bore loads in the various 40:1 thru 15:1 iterations.

famdoc2892
09-25-2013, 07:16 PM
I remain puzzled by this line of thought. I first ran across the concept of balancing antimony and tin content in Glen Fryxell's excellent "From Ingot to Target". I don't have the metallurgical expertise to challenge either the balanced or unbalanced assertion, but I take it to mean that a proportionally higher antimony content can harden the alloy, while omitting the tin doesn't limit mold filling. Hope I've got it right, but not so sure I can control my casting temp so rigidly to take advantage. I'd like to hear more, so keep it coming!

fouronesix
09-25-2013, 09:34 PM
Unless you are trying to specifically conquer the 311041 design for the '06 at some pre-conceived velocity- you might consider slowing it down and use a different powder. You might also consider the 311299 or 314299. Also, don't over think the issue. Pie plate at 50 yards is not good and I would imagine it has little to do with alloy, tin to antimony ratio (yadayada yada), lube and all the other magic fixes you may encounter. You are probably just trying to push the bullet too fast. I'll guarantee a deer will not know the difference in 100 fps or even 200 fps extra woowwie velocity. Accuracy is everything.

If that Rem 700 '06 were mine I'd make sure of the bore diameter then consider the 311299 or 314299. The bore diameter will determine which one to try (the one with a nose diameter closest to .300). If you are right at .300 the 311299 sized to .308-09 and with a BHN of 12-14 would probably do fine over about 19-20 gr 5744 with dacron filler for a velocity of about 1500-1600 fps. ... just my 2 cents worth

45 2.1
09-25-2013, 10:17 PM
I take it to mean that a proportionally higher antimony content can harden the alloy, while omitting the tin doesn't limit mold filling. Hope I've got it right, but not so sure I can control my casting temp so rigidly to take advantage. I'd like to hear more, so keep it coming!

Anything over 2% antimony in a hunting/expanding boolit usually makes it brittle. the lower the antimony content, the longer it takes for the grain structure of the antimony to develop, so wait at least two weeks to shoot any from that casting. You certainly don't need tin to cast an excellent boolit either. Cast at a temperature it takes the sprue to solidify at around 4 seconds, which is what I gave you before. Get your alloy up to temperature, dip your blocks evenly into the melt to preheat the mold... don't dip it in so far as to flood alignment holes, etc...... it should be ok when the lead doesn't stick to the blocks. Keep an even cadence casting and start keeping boolits when they're well filled out and they hiss or chirp when hitting the water (3 to 5 gallon bucket 2/3 filled with tap water on the other side of you opposite your pot).

Char-Gar
09-25-2013, 10:35 PM
I have never used 4198 with cast bullets in the 30-06 so I can's speak to that, however I can make the following recommendations with some degree of confidence you will be pleased with the results.

1. Don't crimp the case on the bullet
2. Use 15 to 16 grains of either 2400, 4227 or 4759
3. Make certain the bore of your rifle is free of jacketed bullet metal fouling

famdoc2892
09-25-2013, 10:42 PM
I have some 2400, but I'm curious to see what you would recommend for a starting load in 4895. I've used it more extensively, but missing data for the cast 31141. Any suggestions?

Char-Gar
09-26-2013, 08:00 AM
I have some 2400, but I'm curious to see what you would recommend for a starting load in 4895. I've used it more extensively, but missing data for the cast 31141. Any suggestions?

I don't use 4895 for cast bullets either.

Larry Gibson
09-26-2013, 12:45 PM
All very good advice, I started around 25 grains in the 4198 and had loads up to 30 grains. Accuracy comes first for my hunting purposes, I'll happily slow it down to 1800 to get it! My seating depth was that recommended in Lyman #49 for the 31141 boolit, but maybe room for improvement. I'm going to clean the rifle thoroughly before any further testing, I thought I had all the copper out but may have leaded the barrel a little in the testing. I have 4895 but didn't find it listed for 31141 in 30-06, so moved to the 4198 instead. Haven't tried Dacron yet, but pretty sure I have some, so that may make it into my next test loads.

Your starting load of 25 gr in the '06 case was probably giving inconsistent ignition unless you took the precaution of pre-positioning the powder just before shooting each shot. If you still want to use the 4198 the drop back to 23-24 gr and use the 3/4 gr Dacron filler. There is a good sticky on how to use it correctly (in post #4 I explain it) for excellent results. You may find the 4198 works very well for your intended application. However, don't expect much accuracy over 1900 - 1950 fps with those components in your 10" twist '06. The reason is.......(nope, the pundits will ruin this thread so if you want to know the reason accuracy goes south above 1950 fps with those components then PM me)

4895 is an excellent powder for what you're wanting. Suggest a start at 28 gr, also using the Dacron filler, and work up to 32 gr. The rifle will tell you by accuracy going south what is enough. I've used the 311041 in my own '06 for hunting for many years and always used 4895 as the powder. I most often got very good hunting accuracy in the 1950 - 2000 fps range and very good terminal ballistics.

You're doing well using the tin BTW.

Larry Gibson

famdoc2892
09-27-2013, 05:56 AM
Many thanks, gentlemen! I've got some refining to do in order to put all these excellent suggestions to proper use, but that's what the question was all about!

cbrick
09-27-2013, 07:54 AM
With the WW/Pb alloy, the antimony is about 2%...

Not unless you have found some 4% Sb WW's someplace. I'd like to find some of that.

It's possible to get some 3% Sb WW but a much safer bet in this day and age for clip-on weights without any stick-ons included is 2% Sb. Then cutting it 50/50 with pure Pb will give you a 1% Sb alloy, fairly soft.

I agree with Larry, leave the Sn in and drop the pure lead. Should shoot well air cooled, I shoot several rifles (though not the 06) with that alloy to 2,000 fps with good accuracy and no leading using mostly SR4759. In the 308 4759 up to 20 gr works well though I mostly use 19.0 gr with 180 gr boolits.

Rick

45 2.1
09-27-2013, 08:11 AM
Not unless you have found some 4% Sb WW's someplace. I'd like to find some of that.
Rick

That is not the only way there......... I have access to alloys that provide those numbers. You could do the same if you check what some of the commercial 22RF and wadcutter alloys are..

MBTcustom
09-27-2013, 09:07 AM
Antimony tin and lead? You really think that's all that's in WW metal? You really think that's all that effects hardness?
What about copper? Nickel? Tungsten? Cadmium? All the other stuff I've found in there when I've had my WW alloys tested by a regularly calibrated machine?
All these metals have effect on hardness/toughness in varying degrees. All I know, is that an alloy that has all this other truck in it will be harder than an alloy that is just 2.5% antimony. In fact I suppose that the fact that a typical WW has half the periodic table may work better that way.
I am blessed because I have access to a calibrated testing machine any time I want it, and I have tested dozens of samples. I don't like discussions like this, because they are based on belief and superstition rather than fact (no offense, please take it as it is intended).
The thing is, I was on my little alloy kick, and I learned a lot, but what I found out is that elemental content is a bad metric by which to judge boolit performance, because its not as simple as we would like to believe. The only true way to judge boolit performance, is boolit performance itself. BHN is closer to being a good measurement system, but even it falls short. The old timers had it right.
Mix big batches, and shoot it. Keep adding stuff till it does what you want. Once you get something that works, try to duplicate it with another big batch etc. That works.
An argument over alloy content is foolish, because everybody could very well be correct in their position, based on what their WW actually contain. I have found that time period of manufacture, and geographic location have much effect on the composition of WW metal.

45 2.1
09-27-2013, 10:12 AM
You forgot zinc, arsenic and aluminum along with some others .......... Yep, we know that what we have to work with is a hodgepodge of various metals in with the lead. Most of us have hardness testers and hammers. Very few of us have access to a spectrometer or foundry access. Unless you shoot lab grade pure metals you don't really know whats there. It's been that way for several hundred years.

cbrick
09-27-2013, 10:59 AM
That is not the only way there......... I have access to alloys that provide those numbers. You could do the same if you check what some of the commercial 22RF and wadcutter alloys are..

Yep, of course that's not the only way there, no limit to the possible combination of alloys. The OP said WW/pure, you said 2% Sb and while that's possible it's not likely in this day and age.

Now the thread has turned from WW alloy to spectrometers and everything else it's possible to have in WW alloy. WW alloy is scrap alloy, new WW's are made from old WW's and who knows what else they add. As scrap alloy it's best to assume WW's from the past few decades average about 2% Sb and since the OP is asking about WW that he cut 50/50 with pure it's safe to say that he has about 1% Sb.

Sure it's possible to alloy almost anything but again, the OP isn't about alloying almost anything, it's about his 50/50 WW/pure alloy air cooled that wasn't accurate.

Rick

Larry Gibson
09-27-2013, 12:52 PM
Lead, antimony and tin are the main ingredients that effect the quality and hardness of the bullet. All the other elements found in COWWs are found in trace amounts that will have little effect (remember there is a difference between "trace amounts" and a significant amount to effect the quality/hardness) on the quality and hardness of cast bullets that are most commonly used. Discussion of how to properly mix the 3 main elements for a balanced alloy is not based on superstition or "belief" but on years (well over 100) of actual experience by thousands of casters plus the input of well trained and experienced metallurgists. The real exception being zinc if you don't sort those COWWs out the zinc can be in sufficient quality to adversely affect or ruin the alloy. However, if the zinc WWs are sorted out any trace left in the others has never been a problem in my experience and I've used a lot of COWW alloy in 40+ years.

If you are using used COWWs as your alloy or as a base it is what it is. You can easily improve it as a ternary alloy for different cast bullet applications by adding lead and tin in certain %s.

You can not take out those other trace elements so fretting over them is somewhat counter-productive. Nice to know they are there but that's about all you can do about it. Sometimes I think we get too wrapped around the axle by minutia that has no practical effect on what we are doing.


Larry Gibson

45 2.1
09-27-2013, 01:51 PM
The OP said WW/pure, you said 2% Sb and while that's possible it's not likely in this day and age. Rick

Here is what he posted: 31141 out of (WW+2% tin)+ 50% Pb .... pure is not mentioned.

WW could have many different % of several things now, or he could be setting on a few barrels of '70s WW which were good (and still out there if you can pry it loose from certain people). The tin is probably sufficiently clean not to worry about. Pb, which is supposed to be "pure" is most likely not, now or in the past, unless you got certified pure lead with less than a percent impurities. It probably has a small % antimony in it (and has for a long time). The old stories from the cartridge BP days caution to use freshly loaded ammo or your accuracy was poor after a little while. Sounds like age hardening of the lead/tin mixes (which don't age harden when pure) from having antimony in them... doesn't it? Larry gave a good synopsis of what really to expect from components of alloys. Your not going to change the basic things we get unless you have deep pockets. If you think about it, you can enhance what you cast with by adding things (like jacketed bullet cores which have about 2% antimony in them, as do 22 rf and factory wadcutters) which do have more things than they should. All a matter of knowing what you're doing.

cbrick
09-27-2013, 02:07 PM
Fine, have it your way but what does any of that have to do with 50/50 WW & lead air cooled and shooting poor?

My only intent is to steer the thread back to the original question which wasn't old stories of black powder cartridges or spectrometers or trace elements which we already know is in all scrap lead alloys.

Rick

45 2.1
09-27-2013, 02:17 PM
My only intent is to steer the thread back to the original question which wasn't old stories of black powder cartridges or spectrometers or trace elements which we already know is in all scrap lead alloys.
Rick

Rick, we already did that, check post #23..... what you said came after that. He got a bunch of suggestions, which he can mull over, and try to correct what went wrong.

fourarmed
09-27-2013, 02:19 PM
If a rifle known to be good with a scope known to be good is shooting badly, it is not the alloy that is the problem. It is probably not the powder, unless it is hopelessly mischosen. Either the bullet is not a good fit to the throat or barrel, or it is being pushed too fast. Check the maximum OAL and seat to that as the first thing.

W.R.Buchanan
09-27-2013, 02:37 PM
I think that this thread has digressed to a level of splitting hairs. I have 400 lbs of WW's I smelted down 5-6 years ago. They melted and poured into a Muffin Tray just fine. Beyond that I have no idea what is in them.

I do know I want to try adding some tin for some of my boolits that are hard to fill right some day, but at $17-19 a lb. It likely will only be done a few times. That is about as deep as I care to get into it.

Past a certain point, what's the point. The whole idea is to shoot the cheapest boolits you can make so you can shoot more.

Most boolits fired by me are being shot at either steel or paper targets, I can't use them for hunting where I live because a freaking Condor might chew on one and then get hit by a car while eating roadkill.

If I got to go pig hunting here in CA I would have to use Barnes bullets in my .44. Not really interested in shooting a 100lb deer here since all the local venison I've eaten in the past 40 years has tasted like uncooked sage brush.

If I got to shoot an Elk, (which is something I'm interested in, in another state) I would use one of the .425 gr NOE boolits I have cast out of the Wheel Weights I smelted 5-6 years ago. I doubt that it would fail, and like I said I have no idea what is in them other than they look like lead and weigh 425 gr so they must be close. I don't think the elk will know if the boolit has anything unusual in it, and I'm pretty sure I will never find the boolit.

I guess I am just not that much of a purist in this regard?

Randy

Larry Gibson
09-27-2013, 03:39 PM
I do know I want to try adding some tin for some of my boolits that are hard to fill right some day, but at $17-19 a lb. It likely will only be done a few times. That is about as deep as I care to get into it.

1 lb of tin at 2% will do 50 lbs of your WWs. That's a lot of cast bullets depending on the bullet weight. Considering how much the better alloy works it can be worth it to some. I'm always on the look out at garage sales, flea markets, etc. for chunks of 50/50 or 60/40 solder. Surprising how many I find and get for next to nothing. Just a suggestion is all.

Larry Gibson

338RemUltraMag
09-27-2013, 10:17 PM
I do know I want to try adding some tin for some of my boolits that are hard to fill right some day, but at $17-19 a lb. It likely will only be done a few times. That is about as deep as I care to get into it.

1 lb of tin at 2% will do 50 lbs of your WWs. That's a lot of cast bullets depending on the bullet weight. Considering how much the better alloy works it can be worth it to some. I'm always on the look out at garage sales, flea markets, etc. for chunks of 50/50 or 60/40 solder. Surprising how many I find and get for next to nothing. Just a suggestion is all.

Larry Gibson

And to further on this you can go to the goodwill or salavtion army stores and look for hallmarked pewter. You can get it rather cheap and is basically 95-98% pure tin. This is how I get all of my tin, and it works well for me. I have noticed a difference in casting, dont get me wrong I cast for a good while w/o tin and I cast a nice boolit. But tin does make it easier to cast a nice boolit.

longbow
09-28-2013, 01:56 AM
Well, I am a little late joining the discussion here and while I skimmed through the posts I am sure I didn't absorb all of them. I hope I do not repeat to much.

Coincidentally, I started out casting for "small bore" with a Lyman 31141 for my .308 with 1:12" twist. Now my I had cast for several years for muzzleloader and large bore (being .45-70 and shotgun slugs) with little trouble and good accuracy from my rifles.

When I attempted to load the 31141 (without gas checks) over Lyman Cast Bullet handbook loads, accuracy was non existent using IMR3031. I do mean non-existent as I was missing targets at 25 yards!

Since I was shooting into heavy wet and very deep snow I decided to excavate for boolits. I will tell you that recovered boolits can tell interesting stories! So, even though the load wasn't hot, there were no lube grooves left (maybe that's where waksupi got them to sell?).

So, next step was to get gas checks. Well, that helped some but accuracy was still less than stellar.

After much experimenting, I found that 18 to 22 grs. of IMR4227 produced very good accuracy, no leading and my boolits still had lube grooves (so I didn't have to buy any).

I was dumbfounded (some say I am just plain stupid) that I had so much trouble shooting cast boolits from a .308 when I had no troubles at all shooting full "J" bullet loads under PB cast boolits in two .45-70's (Marlin 1895 and converted Siamese Mauser).

Since, I have obtained and developed a fondness for Lee Enfields and found much the same problems. If I push velocities, accuracy seems to fall apart. The good old load of 18 to 22 grs. of IMR4227 is producing more than acceptable accuracy but if I push velocity with other powders... even slow powders accuracy deteriorates.

I do not pretend to know the reasons.

What I have found beneficial though:

- moderate loads of medium burn rate powders. So far that has given me best results. Still working on other slower powders.
- fat boolits of at least 0.002" over groove diameter to as large as will chamber
- hard boolits ~ in the Lee Enfield 1:10" twist, recovered ACWW boolits showed wide grooves in the boolits indicating they were lagging in rotational acceleration and swaging wide grooves using heavy NOE 316299 boolits (200+grs.). Oven heat treating made a significant difference in performance increasing accuracy. Lighter boolits did not show the skidding tendency.
- filler ~ controversial subject but I use and like COW filler and find it helps for my loads. My opinion only, YMMV.
- casting ~ I am lazy and CHEAP so I use little tin. I mostly cast wheelweights or range scrap. I cast fast to keep my mould hot and I run my lead somewhat hot which is a subjective comment because I do not use a thermometer. I do know how molten lead behaves and what is hotter than "normal". I like a slightly frosted boolit and get good fillout with my methods using air cooled range scrap or wheelweights which works for most of my shooting and oven heat treated for those difficult guns/boolits. Those "ring" when you tap 2 boolits together. No, I do not know how hard they are.

Now before I get jumped on, I will defend my simple ways by adding that there are few casters and little available for casters where I live. I could get hold of some tin if I really wanted to but find I just don't need it. I could order a thermometer but have gotten along fine without one for over 40 years so why bother? What I will get one day is a lead hardness tester.

So, my take is that you need a fat boolit that fills the throat or at least over groove diameter, a gas check for small bores like .30 cal. and if you are pushing velocity, possibly a hard alloy and heat treated (you can make soft point hunting boolits by annealing noses or using the BruceB method).

Play with a few powders and see what works best to get the highest velocity and accuracy but I am betting you will have to work to get much past 1800 FPS and certainly to get past 2000 FPS.

Shoot your boolits into a media that you can recover the boolits to examine them. Recovered boolits always have a story to tell and some aren't pretty! Those are the stories you can learn good lessons from.

That is my experience with "small bores" anyway.

Longbow

Yow! Just re-read that and it is kinda long... I got to rambling again. Sorry.

hickfu
09-28-2013, 12:52 PM
I do know I want to try adding some tin for some of my boolits that are hard to fill right some day, but at $17-19 a lb. It likely will only be done a few times. That is about as deep as I care to get into it.

Randy

I stopped buying up all the pewter in the thrift stores in Ventura so there is that... Pewter is mostly Tin and has antimony as well.
I have enough pewter now for the 1100 lbs of lead alloy I have


Doc

W.R.Buchanan
09-28-2013, 01:56 PM
Doc: I will rummage the thrift stores for pewter. I went to every plumbing supply house in the Ventura and Oxnard looking for 50/50 solder, however it was outlawed several years ago. Please PM me with your true identity so we may converse further at the club.

Tin/lead free solder was $25-30 for a 1lb roll. Roto-Metals wants $17-19/lb. for pure tin and like Larry said it would do 50 lbs. of mix. which would probably make me enough 311299's for the rest of my life.

I have an aluminum NOE .45 cal. mould that has been a problem to get filled correctly it has one solid and one HP cavity. Never gotten one usable HP out of it, and the problem is always incomplete fills which the tin should cure. I will need about 100 of each side to last for the rest of my life as this would be strictly a hunting boolit to use on that elk I may never get to shoot, so I don't need a zillion of them.

I shoot mainly 300gr boolits in my .45-70 Marlin 1895CB. From RCBS moulds and they run just fine with strait WW's. They knock down a 200 meter Ram with authority!

So I will get some tin somewhere and get to it. It is getting close to casting season for me so we'll get busy.

Randy

MT Chambers
09-28-2013, 02:49 PM
Keep trying, I have not found a .30 yet that doesn't like Lyman's 31041, for cast loads in the .308 and 30/06 including 31041, I like Varget powder.

badbob454
09-28-2013, 03:50 PM
i shoot the noe version plain base and gas check shoot great using 4227 powderas well as a saeco clone , same weight in a 762x39, it too is super accurate .. think it was 16 gr , this may be a little hot , i have no chronometer so , to double check this load see my post in practicle dope on the 762x39 page 6. by badbobgerman
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13453-Practical-Dope-on-the-7-62X39/page6

cbrick
09-28-2013, 06:49 PM
I went to every plumbing supply house in the Ventura and Oxnard looking for 50/50 solder, however it was outlawed several years ago. Please PM me with your true identity so we may converse further at the club.

Hhmmm . . . Sounds very much like Rose Valley, Ojai Valley Gun Club. I spent many, many weekends there over several years shooting silhouette matches. One of the best clubs and most beautiful ranges anywhere. :mrgreen: One of the few things about CA that I truly miss.


I have an aluminum NOE .45 cal. mould that has been a problem to get filled correctly it has one solid and one HP cavity. Never gotten one usable HP out of it, and the problem is always incomplete fills which the tin should cure. Randy

I would be willing to bet the fill-out with the HP's is nothing more than heat. Takes a really well pre-heated HP spud to get good fill-out, a HP pin that is not up to "it's" proper casting temp will ruin your day in a heart beat. In addition the pins do not have nearly the mass the mold blocks have and they cool very quickly, much faster than the blocks. This doesn't mean uber high pot temps but rather a properly heated mold "and pins". I cast HP's at 725 degrees pot temp.

Yep, tin will help with fill-out but it's not as important as properly heated pins. A hot HP pin is a happy HP pin.

Rick

nighthunter
09-28-2013, 09:15 PM
I use this bullet sized .3095 and gas checked over 32.0 grains IMR 4895. It is a load that is very good in 3 different 30-06's in my household. Has accounted for more than a few PA deer over the years. I haven't found a load that kills deer or ground hogs any deader than this one.

Nighthunter

famdoc2892
10-11-2013, 09:54 PM
OK, guys, here it is: the long-overdue update to thank you for your advice! I re-worked my loads with 4895 to include 28, 28.5, 29, 29.5, 30, 31 and 32 grains. In addition to the steps above, I 1) cleaned the Rem 700 barrel thoroughly, 2) prepared 5 fouling/sighting rounds at the lowest load, 3) included a Dacron filler, 4) seated boolits to max OAL of 3.105", and 5) used Lee FC die to straighten flare out of case mouth, not crimp. In a word, the results were spectacular!

The targets represent 5-shot groups at 50 yds (yes, I was too chicken to start at 100 yds after the previous trial!). Loads are from lowest to highest, starting at top left and proceeding L-to-R across, then down and L-to-R again.

84025

84024

84026

For those of you keeping score, that's an 11-mm group of four shots at 29.5 grains! I called a pulled shot which widened the group to 44 mm at 50 yds. Purists may object, but I see the potential for sub-MOA accuracy at 100 yds. (assuming I do my part). I think I've found my new hunting load! A million thanks to each of you who shared your experience!

Just Duke
05-22-2014, 09:43 PM
Good info

aspangler
05-22-2014, 11:21 PM
You might want to try 13.5 gr of Red Dot. 13/16" ctc at 100 for me out of my custom Mauser. ( Built it myself) It has a Savage 110 barrel on it.