Comparing muzzle loaders to cartridge guns.

[starmac]

What would be the way to compare the killing power of muzzle loaders, to say black powder cartridge guns.

What would an original 45/70 compare to in a muzzle loader, or the old 50/110 even. These were successfully used for long range, what makes them better than a muzzle loader?

[GARD72977]

im sure you will get lots of opinions. The Round Ball has a low BC compared to a looong 45cal bullet. With the right twist and a conical there should not be a lot of difference as long as the shooter knows what he is doing! ( I don't)

[bigted]

twist ... rifling depth ... consistent powder compression ... ability to withstand the added pressure ... proper ignition ... boolit choice ... on and on ...

the thing is that a inline will probably do what you desire. it has a better ignition with consistent results and the rifling is set up for longer boolits and the twist is fast enough to stabilize the longer heavier boolits to stay stable out to longer range. the pressure is handled better with the 209 primers sealing the chamber better then the old side hammer and nipple with an 11 cap. the thing is to get the same consistent compression on the powder from shot to shot. this will enable you to have the repeatable accuracy needed for the long range shooting.

now the slug shooters will chime in with their magic. they seem to do very well at the longer ranges ... beyond my experience tho.

[johnson1942]

my muzzle loaders are more powerful than the same thing in cartridge in a buffalo rifle, or at the very leaste the same. my 1/18 twist .45 shoots a 650 grain paper patch bullet with 120 grains of 2f behind it. not many buffalo rifles match that. my .50 shoots a 724 grain paper patch bullet with 100 grains of 2f behind it. another .50 shoots a 533 grain cast bullet with 100 grains behind it. match that in the blackpowder cartridge world. the biggest i see out their is 50/90 straights and they dont have the power my .50/s have. also for a year now ive been informing 1/28 twist inline shooters the value of a 500 to 600 grain paper patch bullet with up to 120 grains of black power behind it. that way more power than the big game repo sharps in 50/90 can put out. also for some reason i dont find recoil as bad in a muzzle loader as a black power cartride gun. my big .50 is really ment for big game not deer. it is also very fun to shoot. i used it on deer once in a chest shot, it of course dropped it but it coughed up a bowl full of powered bone. it is ment for alaska big game. you ought to hear the whoop when it hits a critter. you know you got meat. idaho ron mentioned the woop sound, it means a clean kill and not suffering. i like your post because i love to inform muzzle loader shooters about the potential of what they probably already own. if any one out their owns a faster twist .45 or .50 ,paper patched bullets can make your gun better than a buffalo rifle. talk to me about it if your intereted or talk to big ted or idaho ron we will get you started on real power.

[fouronesix]

Given more or less the same caliber, powder charge, bullet weight/sectional density and alloy- there is not going to be any significant difference. Consistent accuracy then becomes the trump card.

[starmac]

The reason I got to thinking about this was, I am confident that my 54's with a 435 grain chunck of lead will do anything with just as much authority as my 338 or 375 mag. I am not into long range shooting, but at the distance I would pull the trigger on the 54, it delivers as much or more smack down as any of my modern guns, in my opinion.

[Lead Fred]

My 45/70 (.460) sends a 405 slug at 1200fps (holy black) (1750fps R-7)
My 45 cal (.440) flintlock sends a 185gr round ball at 2033fps. (holy black)

Pick your poison, either way they are dead

[Junior1942]

Twist has zilch to do with killing power. Compute the Taylor Knock Out Value.

45-70 500 gr @ 1200 fps = TKO = 39

300 Mag 180 gr @ 3100 fps = TKO = 24

50 caliber muzzleloader 320 gr @ 1200 fps = TKO = 27

[nagantguy]

Interesting post guys, I agree that recoil from a .50 bp does not seem as stout as with a similar weight cartridge gun IMHO. Having shot lots of game with a .50 front stuffer I get game dtr, only twice has a buck run at all both times less than 50 yards. It puts a lot of smack on target, at around 100-150 yards seems to hit harder than my .300 wby. Mag.

[fouronesix]

The reason I got to thinking about this was, I am confident that my 54's with a 435 grain chunck of lead will do anything with just as much authority as my 338 or 375 mag. I am not into long range shooting, but at the distance I would pull the trigger on the 54, it delivers as much or more smack down as any of my modern guns, in my opinion.

I don't know about "smack down". For what most call "hydrostatic shock effect" (actually it has more to do with kinetic energy and incompressibility of a liquid- but no matter) of a common type projectile it needs to have an impact velocity somewhere around 2000fps or greater. That 54 cal conical out of a ML is not going to have much significant "hydrostatic shock effect" BUT what it does have is one heckuva lot of momentum, good sectional density.... thus penetration.

[GARD72977]

You may want to re-think that. A 50 cal with a 1/70 twist will not be zinging any 320 grainers down range with acceptable accuracy.


Twist has zilch to do with killing power. Compute the Taylor Knock Out Value.

45-70 500 gr @ 1200 fps = TKO = 39

300 Mag 180 gr @ 3100 fps = TKO = 24

50 caliber muzzleloader 320 gr @ 1200 fps = TKO = 27

[Junior1942]

You may want to re-think that. A 50 cal with a 1/70 twist will not be zinging any 320 grainers down range with acceptable accuracy.Accuracy also has zilch to do with killing power.

[varsity07840]

My 45/70 (.460) sends a 405 slug at 1200fps (holy black) (1750fps R-7)
My 45 cal (.440) flintlock sends a 185gr round ball at 2033fps. (holy black)

Pick your poison, either way they are dead

You must be using a lot of powder in that flinter. A .440 ball only weighs about 140 gr.

Duane

[GARD72977]

Accuracy also has zilch to do with killing power.

And with out reasonable accuracy Killing power has zilch to do with hunting.

The OP ask about long range shooting. I thought that twist would play a part in killing a animal with a heavy cartridge like bullet in a muzzleloader . Maybe you can explain what I am missing?

[johnson1942]

my two guns that shoot a .50 720 grain weight bullet are 1/23 twist. the one that shoots a 533 grain weight cast bullet is 1/28 twist and the .45 is a 1/18 twist just like a 45/70 or such. my round ball .45 is 1/60 twist. my fast twist will shoot long ranges. their are several members who have and some hunt with .45 1/18 twist underhammer guns and have reporter deer at longer ranges. a muzzle loader is a gun, if you build it or have it built you determine the barrel and the bullet. thats one of the many reasons they are so fun.

[Lead Fred]

74.5 grains of 3f lands the chrony at 2033fps, with 55gr its at 1640fps

Yer right, I just weighed one, they are 140, I must been thinking of a bigger ball I used to use.


You must be using a lot of powder in that flinter. A .440 ball only weighs about 140 gr.

Duane

And Junior is right, the TKO of the 45/70 is massive compared to just about anything else.