Pointy Boolits Won't Shoot!

[Ricochet]

This is the best I've been able to do with Aladin's HBC boolit. Look at that vertical stringing, makes me sick!

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g166/SlidePicker/300WbyHBCTarget.jpg

In case you can't read the fine print, that is at 100 yards from my .300 Weatherby Magnum Vanguard, with 4.3 cc of 7383, bullets cast of WW and oven heat treated (close to a year ago), sized .311", lubed with a 2:1 mixture of JPW and LLA. Primer is CCI #34, and they're crimped in with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. MV is a little over 2200 FPS. (Dunno what the RPMs are with that in a 10" twist.) I only shot this one group the other day as it was too dark to see the holes in my rifle scope or spotting scope, I'd just switched from shooting 2" 200 yard groups with 180 grain Hornady Spire Points and popped these off right quickly through a hot dirty barrel. Couldn't see to shoot any more after these three. Is a three shot .641" group under these conditions a fluke? Probably. But I'll take it and see what I can do next time. I've shot a few of these before and seen 1 1/4" 5 shot grouping. This is one of those low pressure, large case capacity, long pressure curve loads that gets good velocity without overstressing the bullet.

[waksupi]

Damn copper fouling!

[wolfspotter]

Nice shooting!

[fatelvis]

Ricochet, do you know about how many grains 4.3 cc is equivalent to? I was thinking of loading cast bullets for my 270 Weath mag, and was looking for ideas as to bullet/powder combos. It looks like you got a winner there!

[montana_charlie]

That is pretty poor, but if you crank your sight up and left a little it should get better.
CM

[Ricochet]

Thanks, CM, I'll try that.

I plumb forgot how many grains that is. I measure by volume. Hold on a minute, I'll go scoop some and weigh it...

Well, no, I've got that powder inconveniently located, not yet having rearranged my basement from the August flood from the heat pump.

Here's the original thread from last year when I first tried some of these things and said that 4.0 cc was about 48 grains. (I think 4.3 cc is something like 51-52 grains.) http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=10673

I mentioned that I was using White Lightning bicycle chain lube at the time. Haven't been using that lately, but I had pretty good results with it (though I was shooting dismally the day I reported on in that thread with both cast and jacketed) and never ran into the problems a couple of guys did when I recommended it. Be warned, YMMV if you try that.

[Jim]

Ric,
You struck a blow for 7383!:Fire:

GOOD ON YA' !:drinks:

[Lloyd Smale]

my 300 weatherby wont do that with jacketed bullets!!

[Bass Ackward]

(Dunno what the RPMs are with that in a 10" twist.)


Ric,

That's 158,400 over copper. Now who would have thunk that.

[45 2.1]

Pretty hefty RPMs, wonder how THAT fits into Larry's theory.

[44man]

I, for one, don't believe you! [smilie=1: Nobody can shoot like that without a mechanical machine rest. I think you shot at 15 yd's. :mrgreen:
Now I can beat on YOU like I get beat on. :drinks:

[Ricochet]

That's OK.

If those sorts of arguments run out, notice there's a hanging chad on the top hole. Popped back through the hole and out the front. Does that still count?

[Single Shot]

Hanging Chads only count if you shoot in Florida.

Nice work up on that load. Nice shooting too.


Let us know how it works out in a copper cleaned barrel.

[45 2.1]

People with handheld rifles do do that, and have done that in spite of mechanical benchrests. They have beaten the accuracy of mechanical benchrests many times. Not everyone, but some. there are a lot of documented examples of this from the era of cartridge guns forward by some of the best leaders/experimenters in the field of firearms.

Thats only around 5/8 M.O.A. Whats so darn hard about that. We've had several people post pictures a lot less than that.

[jhalcott]

true 45., but not MANY with such a large caliber gun.!

[45 2.1]

true 45., but not MANY with such a large caliber gun.!

Picture/groups from a 338 mag, 375 mag, 4570 lever, and a 450 lever have dusted it badly. What is really nice is he got the Aladin boolit shooting. Maybe there was something to what Aladin said about it.

[Larry Gibson]

Ricochet

Do get back with us and let us know if you can repeat that group consistantly.

Larry Gibson

[Ricochet]

Oh, if I can you'll CERTAINLY hear about it! :mrgreen:

Like I said, could be a fluke.

[Bass Ackward]

Oh, if I can you'll CERTAINLY hear about it! :mrgreen:

Like I said, could be a fluke.


Well dang, you ain't shot it again yet? I see a motivation problem.

I would have shot it again and then cleaned it and tried it by noe just to see what happened.

Dad does this all the time now in handguns. Mostly cause he can't remember what he shot last and sometimes it does improve his groups. But sometimes it don't. Heard that before haven't ya? :grin:

[Bret4207]

Picture/groups from a 338 mag, 375 mag, 4570 lever, and a 450 lever have dusted it badly. What is really nice is he got the Aladin boolit shooting. Maybe there was something to what Aladin said about it.


There might have been a LOT to much of what Aladin said. Too bad he let his ego/personality/whatever get in the way. I'm really surprised Rik-o-shay got it shooting. Thats about the best I've seen with that design.

[DonH]

Very, very fine groups are being shot in ASSRA single shot competition with quite pointy spitzer cast bullets. Unless I am mistaken, the record 200 yard group was fired with a .32 plainbase spitzer bullet. That group was 10 shots into something around .700", give or take a bit. The same gent who fired that group put five shots into right around 5/8" at 200 yards. Pointy cast bullets can definitely shoot. They just have to be properly designed and appropriate for the tweist in use.
My own .32-40 shooting a 220 grain plainbase spitzer has turned in groups which would have fit in the 1.5" ctnter in I had not strung them vertically due to tricky light or horizontally due to misreading wind changes. I would most definitely like to see what the combo would do in the hands of a more capable shooter with better vision.

[Pat I.]

But Don wouldn't you be shooting a breach seated tapered bullet in the 1300 fps range?

[felix]

Yeah, it is what an old German WWII experimenter told me years ago as he was fixing my pistols. "You can get any gun to shoot any boolit". It is up to you to make it happen. This comment was in response to me after I asked him to fix the sights on a second generation Colt SSA in perfect condition. He refused for obvious reasons. Six months later, I had the gun shooting to point of aim. At least a thousand rounds of playing around with the gun. I think I still have the last "official" target somewhere. If so I will post it in this thread. ... felix

[Trez Hensley]

Now where did I put that paper punch?? Then I could post the really good group. Nice Job! I have a ways to go to get this type of group consistently, with jacketed or cast.

[Ricochet]

Well dang, you ain't shot it again yet? I see a motivation problem.
Yeah, I've been letting little things like church, family and work get in the way. Got my priorities out of order, I suppose. I'm about to leave for a professional meeting for the rest of the business week and the upcoming weekend's packed, too. Don't think I'll make it out there for another week. I'm shooting up ammo I've already loaded, not having yet gotten my loading area back in order after my heat pump messed up and I had to hurriedly move stuff around to clear it out. That was in August!


Heard that before haven't ya? :grin:
Huh? What were we talking about? I forgot?
:mrgreen:

[Old Ironsights]

I'm a tube-fed levergunner.... I'm afeared of pointy boolits.

Could someone give me a Savage 99 in .308 to help me overcome my fears? ;)

[Bass Ackward]

I'm about to leave for a professional meeting for the rest of the business week and the upcoming weekend's packed, too. Don't think I'll make it out there for another week.


Oh boy. So we gotta wait a week huh? :grin:

[testhop]

ricochet
all i can say quit ahead and make them woundering

[DonH]

But Don wouldn't you be shooting a breach seated tapered bullet in the 1300 fps range?

Pat;
You are correct - or close. Velocities in this type of shooting range roughly from 1300 to 1500 fps. Maybe this type of shooting has no relation to the topic at hand but even there long-held belief was that a spitzer form bullet was inferior. My intention was only to point out that very fine accuracy can be achieved from that bullet form.
The bullet I shoot has long bearing surface behind the spitzer nose, ublike many of the older spitzer designs. Only trying it would tell, but I see no reason why a bullet of this form, if gas-checked, sufficiently hard and properly fitted, would not shoot accurately at much higher velocities. JMO.

Regards

[Pat I.]

What I'm kind of surprised at is no one mentioned that with a bullet designed like this the Weatherby throat would be THE throat to have. Seat the bullet out to touch the rifling and size it no more than a half thousandths less than ball seat diameter and it might shoot pretty well, although I don't know at what velocity. Making a taper die to match the throat and putting a little taper on the front band would more than likely help too.

[DonH]

Pat;
I don't want to go astray from the topic but just a comment. I realize that when one plays with several different rifles a custom mould for each one is not ususlly practical but there is nothing like having a mould that throws a bullet the diameter needed without sizing at all.

Note: I don't have much experience with fixed-ammunition cast bullet rifle shooting (aside from BPCR) when compared to many of you guys here so don't comment on very many related topics. I do "mine" for helpful information here, and find lots of it!

[Pat I.]

Don,

I agree whole heartedly that having a mould that throws a bullet the exact size you need would be a perfect world but unfortunately with fixed ammunition and the different throats it's just not practical which is why I'll take a .30 mould dropping .313 bullets over one dropping .310 anytime. I don't think it's the sizing that hurts bullets but do thnk it's how you go about it. Lube sizers are convenient for both sizing and lubing at the same time but I think there's too much of a chance of knocking the bullet out of whack because of possible built in misalignment. Using a Lee die and then lubing in a lubesizer using a .001 oversize die takes care of the problem and the bullets concentricity doesn't take a hit. Might take a couple of extra minutes but think it pays off in the long run.

Expecting a mould maker to hit an exact number and keep everyone happy with all the different alloys people use in fixed cartridge guns is asking a lot more than they'll be capable of doing and it's a lot easier (and cheaper) to size down than bump up so give me big everytime and let me decide on the size.

Pat

[Pat I.]

I just dug this mould out and wondered if you'd shot it again yet?

[Ricochet]

Nope. This is a pretty tough time for me to get out to the range.

[Bass Ackward]

Nope. This is a pretty tough time for me to get out to the range.


:groner:

[Ricochet]

You got that right!

I actually thought I might slip out there with Mr. Weatherby for a bit this afternoon, but the chance slipped away. I got some real productive work done, but still...
:neutral:

[hydraulic]

Don H.- I recall reading about that world accuracy record that was shot several years ago with a .32-40 and cast bullets. I had forgotten the figures but .700 at 200 yds sounds right. I went through my old Rifleman's last night, but couldn't find the article. I'm sure there must be some other world records for different rifles, loads, calibres etc. because there are guys here who have shot tighter groups at longer distances than that. Am I correct in remembering that the record holder only fired nine rounds because he couldn't bring himself to fire that last round for fear of ruining the group?

[leftiye]

Nah, He actually missed the whole target- sneezed.

[joeb33050]

It was common knowledge in the SS and CB world that pointy bullets won't shoot. I don't know why, or what happened. There were French-the guy-designed pointy bullets in Lyman catalogs for a long while. After the 60s failure of the 311413 everyone I knew went to flat or rounded point bullets for maybe 25 years.
I've wondered if there wasn't a marginal twist thing. I've got a pointed B&D 30 185 gr mold that shoots great.
Maybe it was just a hula hoop thing. We like to think we're rational, much evidence to the contrary.
joe b.

[Bret4207]

My personal theory on the spitzer type boolit designs reputation for not matching the accuracy of FN/RN types runs like this. Take some of the Lyman numbers like 257388/418, 266386, 280411, 287377, 311414, or the perfect example-323366. (Here's a link to the Lyman designs if you need pics) http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm Look at those unsupported noses! Look at the short bearing length! Think where the CG lays! Now, take all that, add in a mould that's a bit skinny, maybe a sizer die of the old style that cut rather than swaged the boolit, a cast unfriendly throat and worst of all a boolit/case/chamber combo that allows the boolit to enter the throat off center and what will we have? A bullet with a reputation for inaccurate shooting. IMHO this is why very hard alloys were specified for these designs in the older Lyman manuals.

OTOH, look at the 311359 which has a pretty fair rep, especially in platforms like the 30MI and 32-20, 300 Savage. Or the 311413 (Which I think is the Squibb design), 225450,311290, or any of the pointed Loverin designs. There you have a much longer bearing length, a more abrupt ogive, less unsupported nose, over all a better balance design. Although these are no guarantee to accuracy, the chances for disaster are decreased IMO.

I'm not aware of the 311413's reputation for poor accuracy, assuming I have the right mould in mind. Regardless, I would think given our current theories and practices, there's a chance some of these older designs might just shoot with what we know now. Cast it not so hard, make sure it fits the throat, make sure things are aligned to start with, ala 45 2.1's 6.5 lessons, don't expect jacketed velocities at first shot. Another biggie would be insuring your particular mould casts a balanced boolit and isn't one of the unfortunate examples where the mould halves are not cut on center, that can't help things.

If you read the older books, magazines, manuals you'll find examples of accuracy expressed as "good load", "gilt edged", "fine". That doesn't tell us much in many cases. Consider that many of those older designs that were called "good" were used in a day when a 1 1/2" group from a 30/06 was "gilt edged", and that was with handloaded jacketed ammo! These days we expect our rifles to give 1 1/2" groups with nearly any factory load we get at Wally World. "Gilt edged" these days is something under an inch with jacketed, approaching an inch with cast. Maybe we need to update some of our thoughts on this too.