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woody402
09-21-2013, 12:39 PM
I just got a set of 35/30-30 dies from CH4D. It is a 3 die set with an M die. The problem Im having is it still shaves lead and lube when I seat the bullet. The M die has a .356 plug and I'm trying to seat bullets sized .359. Is that the problem? They have not been very helpful at CH4D to be honest. When I called back to discuss it they said you need an M die and sent me the .356 and told me to remove the sizing nut on the recapping die. I have only loaded for 30-30's with cast bullets as far as rifle cast bullets with no problems. I have a lot of experience with pistol castbullets. Any help would be great. Maybe good info to set the dies up from the start? Thanks.

Bent Ramrod
09-21-2013, 01:04 PM
You will probably need to supplement your die set with either a Lyman "M" die in 35R or a RCBS or Lee Universal Expander. I notice that the CH4D dies I have are kind of minimal sized when it comes to the expander pin.

Most die sets are primarily for jacketed loading, although some of them can be made to work with cast. The Cowboy dies RCBS makes are kind of the exception to the rule. But mostly, to use cast, an "M" die is indicated.

woody402
09-21-2013, 01:08 PM
You will probably need to supplement your die set with either a Lyman "M" die in 35R or a RCBS or Lee Universal Expander. I notice that the CH4D dies I have are kind of minimal sized when it comes to the expander pin.

Most die sets are primarily for jacketed loading, although some of them can be made to work with cast. The Cowboy dies RCBS makes are kind of the exception to the rule. But mostly, to use cast, an "M" die is indicated.
What I have notice since tinkering with the dies is the seating die is sizing the case doe before the bullet is seated all the way. Causing the lead shaving.

ShooterAZ
09-21-2013, 01:34 PM
The Lee Universal Expander works pretty darn well for me. For rifle cases I expand just enough so that the entire gas check will fit inside the case neck, no more than that. Then I use a FCD to crimp just enough to remove the bell...again, no more than that. Some guys don't like the FCD, but I suspect that some might be overcrimping with it. One other thing that helps all of this is to trim all your cases to the same uniform length.

Outpost75
09-21-2013, 02:10 PM
My Redding .35/.30-30 die set came as a 3-die set, normally used in straight-wall cases. The full-length sizer has a long tapered expander plug which has a 15 degree included angle, which smoothly necks up .30-30 brass to .35 in one pass. Necks are expanded to .3565 which is correct for jacketed bullets as-sized.

To load cast bullets it is important to adequately inside deburr the expanded case mouths before you use the M die or step-expander. My Redding expander has a radiussed ball end with .3575" cylindrical section 0.4" long, and above that a larger cylindrical section of .362" diameter for 1/16" which expands the case mouth just enough to hand-start a bullet into the case. Above the second cylinder is a 15 degree included angle transition to the .375" diameter threaded shank, which can be used to bell the case mouth slightly above the .362" diameter, if desired.

Yes, the Redding dies are more expensive, but it has been my experience that you get what you pay for.

An easy fix may be to buy the Lyman "M" die for .357 with a long rifle die body.

Danderdude
09-21-2013, 02:35 PM
I'm going to second the Lee Universal Expander die for rifles with gas checked bullets. Though the sizing die plug only expands the neck to .308 I have no problem seating .311 boolits without them getting sized down by the case neck. Conversely, it gives excellent neck tension and an amazing crimp when the Lee rifle style factory crimp die is used.

Just put enough flare so the case will accept the boolit with shaving.

woody402
09-21-2013, 02:55 PM
Thanks. I'm going to look for another set of dies. This set I have here is going back to CH4D. I'm not too impressed with them at this point.

Larry Gibson
09-21-2013, 04:10 PM
CH dies are usually good quality. If the "M" die that came with it is like the Lyman have you adjusted it down far enough to actually bell the case mouth?

Larry Gibson

bangerjim
09-21-2013, 04:33 PM
Go for a Lee Universal Expander die. It is very inexpensive and works for all cal's, not just rifles.

I use it for all my rifle loads with lead slugs.

B4 I bought it, I was using a tapered drive pin punch but it was too long for some carts.

Spend a little.....save a lot of time!

bangerjim

aspangler
09-21-2013, 04:56 PM
I'll second the Lee die. Works really well for me.

williamwaco
09-21-2013, 06:51 PM
What I have notice since tinkering with the dies is the seating die is sizing the case doe before the bullet is seated all the way. Causing the lead shaving.


If the neck area of the seating die is doing that. No type of expander is going to help. The only way to fix it is a new seating die, but in this case that is probably not an option. I think you will need to expand the neck of the seating die.

runfiverun
09-21-2013, 07:49 PM
the expander from a 38/357 set might be a little better.
and a 358 win seater might cure the shaving problem.

I use a 38 special die to neck size my 358 win cases then the expander from the same set and seat in my 358 win die.

robroy
09-21-2013, 08:36 PM
What I have notice since tinkering with the dies is the seating die is sizing the case doe before the bullet is seated all the way. Causing the lead shaving.

When you say the seating die is "sizing the case before the bullet is seated" could this be the crimp comming in contact too soon? Try running the seater stem down so the crimp doesn't contact the neck, then crimp in a seperate opperation

woody402
09-21-2013, 08:50 PM
When you say the seating die is "sizing the case before the bullet is seated" could this be the crimp comming in contact too soon? Try running the seater stem down so the crimp doesn't contact the neck, then crimp in a seperate opperation

I think the problem is the neck area of the seating die is a little tight. It's not crimping too soon. I'm not going to mess with using other dies to load up the ammo. I paid enough for the dies. The dies are going back on Monday.

Blammer
09-22-2013, 10:46 AM
adjust the M die so it goes farther in the case, I don't think you are far enough down to actually make it bell yet.

milprileb
09-22-2013, 12:44 PM
CH dies are usually good quality. If the "M" die that came with it is like the Lyman have you adjusted it down far enough to actually bell the case mouth? Larry Gibson

This gent knows what he is talking about: pay attention and follow it.

woody402
09-22-2013, 01:52 PM
adjust the M die so it goes farther in the case, I don't think you are far enough down to actually make it bell yet.

I have it adjust down enough to bell it and have actually belled it excessively to just see how it work. Same results either way. I usually bell case enough so the gas check is in the case but not excessively when loading handgun rounds.

Blammer
09-22-2013, 02:45 PM
hmm, not sure what to suggest next.

let us know when you figure it out.

woody402
09-22-2013, 03:07 PM
hmm, not sure what to suggest next.

let us know when you figure it out.
I will. Thanks for all that had input.

Char-Gar
09-22-2013, 03:16 PM
If you take a look at the expanding plug on an M type expander, you will find it has a longer cylindrical portion (in your case .356) and a higher and not as long cylindrical portion that expanded the mouth of the case to accept the bullet. This second expanding step needs to be .001 or more larger than the diameter of your bullet. In your case it would need to be at least .360.

In use the case is run up onto the expander until it hits the second step and then continue up and stop before the tapered section of the plug is encountered. This will allow you to set the bullet into the case mouth and then seat without shaving any lead.

You are either using your expander incorrectly by not using the second/higher expanding step, not setting the bullet into the expanded second step or the second/higher expanding step is smaller than .360. If the second step is smaller than .360 replace the plug/die. If it is not, you are no using the die and plug correctly.

If you don't have a good quality micrometer to measure your expanding plug (both steps) you are flailing blind in the dark.

WILCO
09-22-2013, 03:37 PM
What I have notice since tinkering with the dies is the seating die is sizing the case doe before the bullet is seated all the way. Causing the lead shaving.

Hey Woody,

I'm just wondering if your boolit seating die is set too deep?
And then my other question is what's the case length at?

390ish
09-22-2013, 08:39 PM
Lyman M Dies have two steps. Don't just go down to the end of the first step. I did that starting out and it drove me crazy.