Strange electrical wire any electricians in the house

[turmech]

I was doing some other work under my house when I noticed a strange wire running under the foundation. I immediately know it was the feed to the work shop sub panel. What brought it to my attention is it was in a junction box connecting to 10-3 wire. This was alarming because I know the shop was on a 60 amp breaker ( much to large for the 10-3 wire). I could not leave it like this so I switched gears and ran 6-3 from the main panel to a new large junction box and correctly made connections to the unusual wire. The wire feeding the shop seemed like a extremely heavy duty power cord. Not being able to make sense of the labeling on the wire I was fairly confident it was 8 gauge stranded copper wire. I put in a new smaller 50 amp breaker and felt much better about the current situation.

I deiced to try to google the writing on the wire going underground to the shop. It is labeled tamaqua control cable #9 4 C 30-15 1000v. I did not find much on it but what I found leads me to think it is 9 gauge wire. I have never heard of 9 gauge wire. Being this site has so many form different walks of life I though I would ask if anyone had any experience with this wire? What was it originally designed for? How much amperage is it rated for? If no one has seen this particular wire, does anyone know what amperage 9 gauge stranded copper is rated for?

[smoked turkey]

I would start at the main electric panel and see what 30 amp 2-pole breakers are there. One of those should feed the 10-3 wire. Panel should be labeled with what it feeds. I use an electrical tester that glows when you touch the wire in question. You can keep trying breakers until you find which one feeds that phantom wire. Well wire is usually a flat ribbon type of wire composed of Red/Black/Yellow/Green I think. Ofcourse yours may be different. After you get it off you shouldn't have to wait long to see if it is to the well.

[lightman]

It sounds like a type of tray cable used on center pivot irrigation systems. Somebody used what they could find for free, sounds like. Also sounds like you did a better job than the last guy! Lightman

[MaryB]

Sounds more like an industrial machine cable.

[turmech]

I just re read my original post and it probably is confusing (sorry).

I know what breaker was feeding the shop (it was a 60 amp originally). I know the mystery wire goes underground to the shop. What I did not know until today was from the 60 amp breaker someone ran 10-3 to a junction box about 10 feet away in the crawl space. At this junction box it changed to the mystery wire which was not long enough to make it to the panel.

I reduced the breaker to 50 amps and ran 6-3 to a new large junction box where it connects to the mystery wire which I felt confident was 8 gauge stranded copper. The Google search has me now thinking it is 9 gauge which I did not know existed until today and don't know its amp rating.

[Catshooter]

turmec,

You're correct in thinking that nine gauge isn't a normal construction wire size. Not in America anyway.

Wire gauge is just like shotgun gauge; the larger the number the smaller the wire. Number nine would be a bit smaller than eight. Under most conditions and situations eight gauge can be breakered at 50 amps.

Nine is a bit smaller. How much samller? I can't tell you. However if ten is safe at 30, and eight is safe at 50 I could guess that nine would great at 40 amps.

Just my .02 and worth what you paid. :)


Cat

[lylejb]

I'm not an electrician but I did some (a bunch) of reading before my shop project.

Wire gauge is a size / diameter measurement of wire. In theory, a manufacture could make any size / diameter they want, even if it's weird.

I'm reasonably sure NEC (national electrical code) doesn't spec 9 gauge wire.

NEC ampacity for 8 ga. copper is 40/ 50/ 55 depending on the temperature rating "type"

for 10 ga. copper it's 30 /35 / 40 again depending on "type"

Nec also says a breaker not larger than 30 amps for 10 gauge.

If it were me, I might be inclined to split the difference and call it 40 amps.

Or I might be inclined to put in 2ga triplex aluminium underground service entrance, which is good for 90 amps, inexpensive ( a bit over $1 a foot), and not have to worry about it any more.:bigsmyl2:

[Dale in Louisiana]

If you're using aluminum, pay close attention to the devices, making sure that they are rated for aluminum. (says "CU/AL") and check the connections periodically because aluminum has a different coefficient of expansion (due to heat) and also will oxidize readily. It should be installed with a specific compound on the connection to preclude oxidation. The compound is messy and a lot of people wipe it off, but it is essential to a safe and reliable installation.

dale in Louisiana

[turmech]

I guess I should say I am not an electrician either. I do hold a master mechanical license and am required to hold a limited electrical license for several counties I work in. I am fairly comfortable working with electrical an in my area I am licensed to do it for HVAC applications (from panel to equipment).

Truly I agree at this point a new feed would seem the best. My situation is more complex due to the wire in question runs under blacktop and concrete. I also agree splitting the difference between 30-50 amps as far as breaker size may just be what happens, all things considered.

I just wish I could find out more on the mystery wire. My gut tells me based off its construction (fine stranded wire) that the wire is rated fairly high but I generally error on the side of caution. I know it is much better now than it was and it had been that was most likely 20-30 years. My little shop does not pull that many amps. 95% of the time a 30 amp breaker would be more than enough. I will most likely go to a 40 amp breaker. The welder in the shop probably won't like it though, at least I don't use it much.

[joesig]

Did you see this and try to call?

TAMAQUA CABLE PRODUCTS CORP
1 TAMAQUA BLVD
SCHUYLKILL HAVEN, PA 17972-1133 | view map
(570) 385-4381

I expected this to actual be in Tamaqua. (My grandfather told me about building/moving/working at a machine shop there and the name brought back some memories)

[turmech]

Thanks for the info I will definitely try to call. My search lead me to them but not any contact info. I was on a web page which talked about the company but the links took you somewhere else (a different manufacture).

[Lloyd Smale]

i guess your confusing me a bit. You ran new #6 to a new panel because there was an abandoned wire there? If there was something this wire was still used for wouldnt you know it by the fact you had something that didnt work? My guess is its an old water pump or out building or outside light that doesnt exist anymore so why pay for wire and a junction to restore it? When i was a lineman i about saw it all when it came to interior wiring. We went to one camp that had old extension cords pieced together and ran though the walls. Also lots of that old asbestos covered copper they used with porcelan stand off insulators. that stuffs the worse. Over the years the insulation drys up and falls off and you end up with bare wires run through the walls of you house. Guys complain about electrical inspectors but to us they were God sent!! To many people wiring homes that dont know what there doing and many are killed every year because of it.

[375RUGER]

Replacing that short section of 10awg was smart. the 30-15 in the label means 30mils insulation inner jacket and 15 mils for each individual conductor, and then some outer jacket that is a lot thicker. It is probably suited for installation in just about any application and rated 65*C or higher.
9 gauge stranded wire will handle more power than solid wire. You should know that the current rating of a cable or wire indicates the current capacity that the wire or cable can safely carry continuously. If this limit is exceeded for a length of time, the heat generated may burn the insulation--hence the rating of the circuit or thermal load capacity.
If I was wiring it, I'd call 9gauge stranded as 8awg solid and call it a 50A circuit.
Remember that most breakers have 2 mechanisms, thermal and magnetic. The short circuit protection of a breaker comes from the magnetic mechanism which is very fast acting.

[turmech]

i guess your confusing me a bit. You ran new #6 to a new panel because there was an abandoned wire there? If there was something this wire was still used for wouldnt you know it by the fact you had something that didnt work? My guess is its an old water pump or out building or outside light that doesnt exist anymore so why pay for wire and a junction to restore it? When i was a lineman i about saw it all when it came to interior wiring. We went to one camp that had old extension cords pieced together and ran though the walls. Also lots of that old asbestos covered copper they used with porcelan stand off insulators. that stuffs the worse. Over the years the insulation drys up and falls off and you end up with bare wires run through the walls of you house. Guys complain about electrical inspectors but to us they were God sent!! To many people wiring homes that dont know what there doing and many are killed every year because of it.

Lloyd, Nothing was abandoned when I started. The circuit in question was working. I was under the house working on something unrelated.. I pulled back some insulation for the other unrelated project I was doing and found a junction box that had 10-3 connecting to the mystery wire. This mystery wire ran to the shop I already knew that. This wire is large with the very thick insulation I have seen it many times. I also already knew the shop was on a 60 amp breaker. I just did not know until then that 10-3 ran from the main panel to the newly discovered junction box.

I removed the existing 10-3 and the old junction box. I ran the 6-3 from the existing main panel to a new junction box. The original junction box was too small for connecting these wires correctly. I ran 6-3 because initially I thought the mystery wire was 6 awg until I stripped it back and found the insulation was thicker than I imagined and then thought it was 8 awg. That is what lead me to reduce the breaker to 50 amp (thinking it was 8 awg).

Having never seen anything like this mystery wire use in a home I decided to investigate it a little further. The cord reminds me of a large equipment, large generator cord or possibly an RV cord.

As far as inspectors go I have nothing good to say about the ones around here they are typically ex LE or car salesmen and no nothing of the trades they inspect. The only one around here that actually worked in the trade did some the worst work of anyone when he was in the trade.

[ironhead7544]

I have found lots of horrible wiring done by idiots. Be careful. There are some places with no inspection.

[popper]

Probably a direct burial non-armored cable ( or someones redneck version of it). I'd call it 10 ga and let it go at that. You need to size wire and breaker by the amp draw AND length of run, especially if running machines. IF the 50 amp breaker feeds more than the shop you probably need to put another breaker at the junction and size it properly for your shop load. Also check local code and see if this is legal. The shop should be fed from a breaker in the mains panel. I assume it is 120 single phase with safety ground (green) and your welder is a buzz box or wire welder.

[turmech]

I assume it is 120 single phase with safety ground (green) and your welder is a buzz box or wire welder.

The shop has a sub panel (240v single phase). The wire I used was 6-3 (3 conductors and a ground). The wire I connected to is 4 conductor. Connections are correct and per code to the best of my knowledge. The 10-3 was way wrong and I really have no clue about the mystery wire underground. The welder is a fairly large Lincoln stick welder (240v 50 amp). It rarely gets used as I am not a good welder. I have good friends who are and most often I take what needs welded to them. It is nice to weld something easy myself from time to time.

The bottom wire in the pic is the mystery one of unknown rating. The top wire is 6-3

[Mal Paso]

If you are getting voltage drop from too small wire, it makes welding much harder.

[sparkz]

That sounds like some kind of Tray cable most of those types can take lots of amprage with out damage but be best to size Copper to your load, but thats some kind of tray cable and may had been correct at time of install,,



Patrick (Retired electrical contractor)