Noob dilemma

[CHIZZ]

Greetings all. First post so bear with me.
Having only recently discovered I was put on this earth for the purpose of casting and shooting boolits, I have been having a fine time doing things my way. I have a problem though with my 45/70. The mold I am using is the Lee 340 gn FP. It drops boolits about .459 and I shoot them unsized. The problem is no matter what lube or powder ( with one exception) I use, there is unacceptable vertical stringing.
The first few shots might group alright (sometimes) but then the point of impact starts rising and falling with a mind of its own. I've tried wheel weights air cooled, quenched from the mold and mixed with straight lead. I've tumble lubed, pan lubed with 50/50 and tried whipped up a concoction based on Riverfuns Simple lube , always with the same vertical dispersion. Regarding powder,45 gns of AR2208 (Varget) showed a bit of promise but after three or four shots its the same problem. The rifle shoots jacketed well which only makes things more annoying. Other powders tried were AR2219 (terrible) and Ar2206h (better but still no good).
Things improve dramatically though when I tip 16.5 gns of good old Trail Boss in the case. Then all I get on target is one big hole. I've even shot groups with all the different lubes I've tried with great results.
Obviously there's something I'm missing here . All I'm after is a mildish hunting load, about 1500-1600 fps that shoots minute of pig.
Could anyone please help out an enthusiastic but clueless beginner.

[lwknight]

Welcome aboard CHIZZ.
I may be way off base with my first thought but here goes an ice breaker.
Usually, barrel climb is from several rounds in rapid succession .
Question: Do you always shoot the same way? Like fire 1 shot, wait a minute or so then another and do the same on all loads?
One key to finding whats up is verifying variables and eliminating as much as possible.

[MtGun44]

What gun? I am betting this is more gun related than ammo related.

Things like forend pressure if it is a levergun or single shot can be the problem,
or maybe barrel band constriction, etc.

I have had excellent results with Win 748 in .45-70, getting 1750 fps with a 405
in a Marlin GG, using 57 gr - which seems like a lot and would lead some to
think this is high pressure. It has been tested to meet Trapdoor pressure
levels (very low).

Bill

[osteodoc08]

I would recommend letting your barrel cool and shoot no more than 2-3 at a time. You can also work up your powder to see if it helps, but usually vertical stringing in my experience is gun related.

[popper]

If TB works I suspect powder position or measuring of Varget. Try filler or weighing each load to see the diff. Could also be recoil reaction related.

[CHIZZ]

Rifle is Rossi Rio Grande. Groups are five shots shot one after the other. The rifle shoots jacketed stuff with no climbing at all. I had a bit of a win this afternoon lubing only the bottom groove, with 50/50. That made a big difference as did concentrating on hold and trigger squeeze. More experiments tomorrow. I might try upping the Varget a bit as it seems very mild on the shoulder compared to 2219.
Thanks to all for the help.
Chizz

[Wal']

Not into rifle loads Chizz but if there's ever an answer for your problem the guys here will sort you out.

And welcome, best site on the web. [smilie=s:

[eljefeoz]

Welcome Chizz.Havent reloaded for your caliber or an underlever, but I'm sure you'll get an answer here.[smilie=s:

[lwknight]

CHZZ, from they way that you describe the situation, I don't perceive that you are being real scientific about it.

You don't get barrel climb on a cold barrel. Once the barrel heats up, you need to slow the shooting down.
A hot barrel gets cooled by the ambient air on exposed parts faster than the parts covered by the stock.
If you do not space your shots out enough to allow the barrel to equalize , you will get barrel climb.
It would seem logical that jacketed bullets would be worst offenders but, maybe it is possible that slower cast bullets have more actual heating time in the barrel.

[CHIZZ]

Spot on LW, unscientific is the perfect description of my approach so far to casting. I took the time last night to read a few stickies about tips and advice. I then pulled a few boolits and measured them. Turns out I had my sizer adjusted down a bit too far for one thing. Amazing the difference it makes when the boolit fits the bore.
Anyway, after all the shootin and the learnin I'm still having fun and that's all a man can ask for I reckon

[Jailer]

If you're shooting for groups try breech loading your rounds one at a time. A smart guy once told me that if you load your magazine tube up on a lever gun as you shoot there is less weight under the barrel with each successive shot and it changes the barrel harmonics as you shoot.

[WILCO]

Amazing the difference it makes when the boolit fits the bore.

That was my first thought. Keep us posted. Do you have a cast boolit reloading manual?

[500MAG]

This is not a dilemma. A dilemma is when you have to choose between a new rifle or a new handgun. This is part of the enjoyment of casting. Once you figure it out, and you probably will, it's awesome.

[HeavyMetal]

Suggest you search for Beagling your mold, no experience with the Rossi Rio Grande but barrel might be on the big side.

This doesn't seem to bother Jacketed rounds but with lead an oversized bore, in relation to boolit diameter, can be a big deal.

Beagling allows you to cast a larger boolit, as your getting .459 as cast, before the brass size's it on seating, I'll suggest beagling for .001 to .002 larger, cast of a slighlty harder alloy ( making the boolit harder to size when seated) and try again.

Also glad you've joined and posted! Lots of fun here plus the learning curve gets a tad shorter real fast, LOL!

[41 mag fan]

Also look at your lube. You'd be amazed how lube plays a major role in groups. Here's a few pics of my tests all this spring and summer. My tests were controlled using a Browning 1886, Accurate 300gr mold 48gr of 3031 and Bens Red.
Brass was a constant trim to minimum.
The only difference on these tests were the Bens Red. The first pic shows Bens Red from a warm barrel, as I was testing 3 different loads, 47, 48, and 49gr of 3031.
So the 47gr was 10 rds, and it would shoot high to low, on the first 2 shots, then start grouping inbetween the first 2 rds fired.
At 48 gr, they would group but using my normal total melt of Bens Red it would still shoot high then low with tight groupings in it. There's 10 rounds in this group on the first pic.
49gr of 3031 they would open up and not group at all.
Shooting 10 rds of each charge weight, I would shoot 5, smoke a cig, shoot 5 smoke a cig, so it had the length of 5-10 min of cool down time of the barrel, between each 5 rds shot.
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n569/91msd92/45-70/Photo07021529_1_zpsc5cd8600.jpg

On these next pics, I started out at 48gr of 3031, and total melt of Bens Red but added 5% more beeswax. I started out again with a cold clean barrel. Shoot 5, cool down 5-10min, shoot 5 ect ect.
But for this test I shot 10 rds into one target, 10 rds into next target.
You'll see on the 1st pic a shot way off to the left, that was the 1st shot, then they went high then low with groups starting.
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n569/91msd92/45-70/Photo07291214_zps52c21216.jpg.

On this pic, you'll see 2 low shot and 2 high shots. What happened was after my normal cool down, the first went high, the second low, then a nice grouping. This happened on both 5 rd groups of 10 rds shot.
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n569/91msd92/45-70/Photo07291215_zpsf1a3c664.jpg

Then I tried 48gr of 3031, with Bens Red and added 10% more beeswax.
20 rds total, 2 targets with 10rds each and the same as the 5% tests, cold clean barrel, 5-10 min wait inbetween each 5 rds shot.
As you can see in the pics, at 10% the groups never came together, which just shows me how much lube plays a role in how a gun shoots, how your rds will react when everything is controlled and you change just one thing in them.
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n569/91msd92/45-70/Photo08300750_zpsc6826dd4.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n569/91msd92/45-70/Photo08300750_1_zpse2dc06e6.jpg

All these tests were done at 50yrds also.

[Pat I.]

Try checking your bench technique. Try resting the forearm on different places on the bag and do it the same way for 5 shot groups to see if it helps with the vertical. You might end up having to rest it right in front of the receiver.

[runfiverun]

the rest right close to the receiver is the best technique I have found.
also the rounds feeding from the magazine will change poi on rifles that are sensitive to mag tube tension.

[CHIZZ]

Thanks all. Problem mostly solved when I backed of the sizing die by HEAPS, stopped crimping like my life depended on it and cast some decent boolits! I can now shoot minute of pig at least.
All my fault pretty much but that's how it goes now and then. Thanks again, mainly for forcing me to think about what I was doing. Still got a jacket reloading mindset which will have to be partially deleted.