Problem with my New Lyman Tang sight

[PatMarlin]

Well-

I finnally broke down and bought a Lyman Tang sight for my 336- 30-30. $69 plus $15- I had them drill the hole cause this is a very nice old 336, and I didn't want the hint of a possibility of making a mistake.

It was the new Lyman that doesn't drill into the serial number.

Fine but now It's shootin' to the right bout 3 inches, and I've got the front sight drifted pretty darn far, and it's still not working. The Lyman's don't have a windage adjustment. I woulda put a Marbles on it, but I didn't want to destroy the low serial number.

Seems like I was shootin' better with the stock sights, but it's way to early for such a hasty conclusion.

Anyone have any Ideas for a fix?

[leverfan]

The first thing that comes to mind (although I don't have the type of sight you're talking about, so this might not work) is shimming one side of the rear sight. Cut a thin strip of aluminum from a pop can, put it under the right side of the rear sight, and screw it back on. That should tip it to the left, and help correct the problem.

[KCSO]

Leverfan is right about shimming, that is the quick fix. The hard way is to mill the sight base a little at a time until it comes into range. The bad part is that if you want the sight for target shooting having the staff crooked will throw your windage off at long range. As an example if you get the gun sighted in perfect at 100 yards and the staff is tilted you will be off 1 1/2" at 200 and so on out to the range of your sight. Now if you just want the sight for one range or as a flip up long range sight for hunting this won't make any difference. On my 1886 I use the peep for 150 yards and leave it set for that range, the buckhorns are set dead on at 75. The best cure is to get a Marbles sight with the windage base.

[PatMarlin]

I noticed the aperature does not lock rock solid. I can twist it left to right with a bit of pressure, and no matter what I tighten, it doesn't want to lock down.

I don't want to have to shim it for cryn' out loud (though I appreciate your suggestion), I paid $100 with tax to have my rifle drilled, and this thing put on.

[PatMarlin]

Leverfan is right about shimming, that is the quick fix. The hard way is to mill the sight base a little at a time until it comes into range. The bad part is that if you want the sight for target shooting having the staff crooked will throw your windage off at long range. As an example if you get the gun sighted in perfect at 100 yards and the staff is tilted you will be off 1 1/2" at 200 and so on out to the range of your sight. Now if you just want the sight for one range or as a flip up long range sight for hunting this won't make any difference. On my 1886 I use the peep for 150 yards and leave it set for that range, the buckhorns are set dead on at 75. The best cure is to get a Marbles sight with the windage base.


That's a great point-

But will the Marbles fit the holes now drilled in my receiver?

This new mount uses the back tang screw, and then you tap another hole right next to it, to avoid the serial number.

Then Lyman has an adapter plate for lack of a better term, that has the rear tang hole, then a tapped hole for a small forward screw. The adapter plate gives you the spread.

Maybe it's the same spread as the Marbles?

[beagle]

My gunsmith warned me about tang sights a couple of years ago and now I see why. I was looking at mounting a tang on something and he told me that the tangs were not made straight and you couldn't just measure center and drill as it would be off. Evidently your rifle has that problem.

His method was to align the tang with the rear sight with the rifle in a vise, mark and then drill. Said that worked.

But, we're past that now. There are several options. One is to shim and you don't want to do that.

Another is to have a machinist that understands guns and sighting problems to mill one side of the sight base. This will be a trial and error deal but will correct the problem.

Probably, Lyman needs to send a warning with their tang sights to be aware of this problem. It would save a lot of hassles and bad will.

Hope you come out of it all right./beagle

[bdoyle]

First off, I would try a shim just to see how bad it really is. If the tang is twisted somewhat even the Marble will have the same problem. Given that you have to use the long stock screw there is little that can be done with the front to align the sight. I had a Marble sight on my 1895 marlin that had this square block that fit on the tang. Ugly and the cross screws alway scrapped my thumb(lefty).
Maybe the adapter can be modified to align the sight. To see the angle you can start shooting with the sight set low and take shots at various settings. You should see a angle across the target. Try the shims to align the sight with the reciever. This will show you how the adapter needs to be modified. Or just leave the shim under the adapter. This is actually a common problem. I would try make the Lyman work. I really liked them for CAS.
I believe I saw a windage adjustable eyepiece for the Lyman, but I can't remember where.
Brian

[bdoyle]

I found the windage adjustment thingy. They show the whole sight but it is just the stem and eyepiece.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,3201.htm

The marbles for the 336:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,1935.htm

Brian

[PatMarlin]

Hey that looks great Brian... adjustable windage- but another $75 Bucks!!!!

Holy moly, I'll have a fortune in this rifle. I love the thing but dang, that's to much.. :roll:

I had one of those marbles awhile back, and I sold it. I remember why now- it was an ugly bastreed and I couldn't bare to put it on my 336.

I Like the look and feel of the Lyman too. I shot it at 35yds behind the house , and was under an inch, but they opened up a little at 50. I like the small peep on the adjustable one. I dunno- we'll see.. :mrgreen:

[omgb]

:The Lyman windage adjustable staff is the way to go. It will work with a minimum of hassle. The guy who drilled and tapped your tang bit you pretty hard. Here in the PRK, Los Angeles no less, I had my Browning done at the Oakridge Gun Club by their visiting mobil gunsmith and it cost me $20 for two guns. It took all of maybe 15 minutes. I went home and did another one by myself. The tap cost me $4.00 and the drill bit I already had.

Any way, don't think about what you already spent. That's what is commonly refered to as a "sunk cost". Whether you fix the sight or not, that money is gone. Now, if $75.00 fixes the problem and gives you a very functional firearm, spend it and don't look back. Think of it this way: Right now, the gun will not work corectly making it essentially worthless. $75.00 and maybe 15 minutes will give you a lifetime of functionality. It's that simple. Chalk the first $100 up to lessons learned.

R J Talley

[PatMarlin]

I want the really small peep so I can hit them 500 yrd targets... [smilie=f:

[Throckmorton]

If you go Marbles you can alwasy sell the Lyman and recoup most of your money.
I might take it off your hands and give it a fling on my ancient A model. :P

[w30wcf]

PatMarlin,

I have 3 Lyman tang sights and I have shimmed all of them. One advantage that the Lyman has over the Marbles is that it has more elevation adjustment for longer distance shooting.

I have shot my shimmed Lyman tang sighted .30-30's out to 500 meters on the NRA Steel Ram target and they work just fine.

If you are off 3" at 100 yards, a .006" shim or 2 thicknesses of regular writing paper will take care of it.

As a reminder, regarding the front sight, if your bullet is hitting to the right, move it right. If your bullet is impacting left, move the front sight to the left.

Good luck,
w30wcf

[PatMarlin]

Thanks wc30-

I'm off 3" at 35 yrds. It's way off to the right, and that's with the front sight hangin' way over to the right.

The shop owner was telling me some Marlins barrels are not mounted in the receiver square or straight?

Ever heard of that?.. :shock:

[felix]

Yes, I have a Marlin like that. I keep thinking that someday I will send it back to the "factory" to get the barrel put on correctly. In the meantime, I'll shoot it as is with the sights manipulated in an ugly manner. ... felix

[w30wcf]

PatMarlin,

Try cutting two 1/8" wide strips from a business card. Back out the screws a few turns and and put them one on top of the other under the right side of the tang sight and retighten the screws. That should put you in the ballpark, hopefully.

I have heard where barrels have not been aligned properly with the receiver as Felix has experienced. I had a muzzleloader once where the bore was out of alignment with the outside of the barrel. I had to drift the front sight about as far to the left as it would go with the rear sight just about as far to the right as it would go. That gun would shoot even though the sights looked strange.

w30wcf

[fourarmed]

Here is what I would do: set up a very tall target at 50 or 100. Shoot a group at a low sight setting, then another with the sight elevated all the way. Maybe do this several times. If the high group is straight above the low one, the sight is properly aligned with the gun, and you can hopefully get it "on" by drifting the front. If the high one is significantly displaced horizontally from the low one, then either shim the base (there is nothing inherently shameful about this, as long as you don't use shims cut from catfood cans or the like) or relieve one edge of the base. If you are careful, you can do the latter with a file. If, after truing the rear sight, you still can't get on target with the front sight, cut your losses and send the rifle to me. I specialize in frustration.

[PatMarlin]

I was at the Gunshop yesterday, and the smith shimmed it.

Did a nice job, and he thinks that will fix it- even at long range. So we shall see.

If this doesn't fix it, I'm going to buy the Lyman windage adjustable peep for this sight.

To nice a rifle, and to much money to turn back now.. :Fire: [smilie=b:

[Bent Ramrod]

Patmarlin,

There are always slight variations from one to the next not only in the radial surface under the tang sight bases but also on the tangs of the rifle receivers. Especially now, when the tangs are no longer factory drilled and tapped for tang sights. Whoever polishes that tang at the factory is not after a precision sight base (if he ever was in the past), just a curve that matches by eyeball the contour of the grip of the stock.

In many cases, a new tang sight will only be making contact with the tang on the outer edges of the base. The fit varies like the headspace in barrels when screwed onto different receivers or with different bolts in the same receiver. A skillful shim job, hidden under the base and the screws properly tightened down, is usually pretty hard to notice.

If you want to really do it up without the shim, smear high-spot blue on the tang of the rifle, attach and remove the tang sight base and file off the blued areas on the side opposite of the side you shimmed until the sight is in full contact and angled over the correct amount. A lot of work though; shimming is easier, and the result is the same.

[PatMarlin]

Just happens I got her sighted in yesterday. Was windy, but got it on paper at 50 and 100, and they did a good job. In fact, he told me I'd probably have to drift my front sight back in some, and he was right.

What a fun shooter. Now- I want to get some smaller peeps if I can find some. I had been using 3031 with a 311284 flattened metplat, but I used some Reloader 7 this time and it showed some promiss. To windy though. It's definitely minuet-of-deer.

Now the same gunsmith worked on the trigger of my new Howa .223 and it's worse.. :shock: He said it was the best he could do, and charged me $35, but dang- I could have pocketed that money, and screwed it up myself..[smilie=b:

[Chargar]

Lyman sells a target disc with an itty bitty hole. Works very well.

[PatMarlin]

Chargar...

You ever work with any of the front target sights? Like the Lyman globe's etc?

I'm wondering if that's the next step to lobbing in some long range lead.. :lol:

[Chargar]

Pat..Sure..for target shooting they are standard. If shooting at a round bull they are the way to go. The inserts with the round hole in the middle are just perfect. The bull goes in the hole and gives a much cleaner sight picture than trying to balance the ball on a post. They also come with a post insert if you want to go that way. I have also used the post insert for field work.

A good globe front with inserts and a quality receiver sight is the best sighting situation around.

I have several rifles set up with globe front sights. I have a REdfield globe that fits in the standard 03 sight dovetail and several Lymans.

[Rob Helms]

Once you have the sight aligned vertically, you can fill in under the sight base with acraglas gel with a little black die mixed in. Bond the acraglass to the base and put release agent on the rifle tang. this will give you a good fit to the rifle and you can take the sight off if you need to and return to zero when you replace it.