Americas cup races.

[popper]

Anybody watch the 2013 races on the sports channel? Sure are different boats this time. Cats with foils on the dagger boards, who'd a thought. Sail boat going 40 knots?

[Finster101]

Seem's to be a rich mans sport to me.

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

A very rich man's sport. Just the sails, and they are NOT true sails, more like wings, are upwards of
5 or 6 MILLION each. Carbon fiber hulls, well not too many of us are gonna build ourselves one of
them.

OH and BTW, The Kiwi boat is kickin *** and takin names.

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

[rbertalotto]

The masts are over a million dollars.............you can barefoot waterski behind one of these "boats"......and I use the term , boat, loosely. Wish they would go back to the old style 12 meter yachts..............But then again, I still think smokeless powder won't succeed! :bigsmyl2:

[JeffinNZ]

One more win and the cup comes back to NZ.

I suspect when we win and host the boats will be more traditional.

Yes, it's a rich man's sport but a bunch of Kiwi's on a shoestring budget can still hold their own.

[David2011]

Only problem with a 12M is they're ancient technology built to a rule dictated (manipulated) by the NYYC (New York Yacht Club) so they could remain dominant for a century. A $5000 Hobie 18 catamaran will literally sail circles around a 12. I would like to see a somewhat more traditional boat, myself, though. The last monohulls were 80' LOA and the bare carbon fiber hull weighed a scant 8000 pounds. That's unbelievably light for an 80' boat. It's hard to tell by looking at them when the AC74s are going upwind or downwind. As much of their own apparent wind as they create there isn't much difference. It is kinds cool to see sailboats go that fast. I would have never believed a 74' boat could break 50 mph 20 years ago.

My favorite AC quote: "So, Dennis, how does it feel to be the only man to lose America's Cup? Twice?"

David

[MtGun44]

"Kiwis on a shoestring budget. . . . ." Jeff, you got to be kidding! I have zero idea about
the actual $$ but even a low budget in this game is HUGE and they are funded by the
Arab oil $$, plus a whole bunch of other sponsors. I'd sure like to have the scrap
left over from making that "shoestring"!

Congrats on your sailors and designers, that is a very, very fast boat.

I was amazed to see a boat running at twice the wind speed and making
about 56 kts, (IIRC ) which is 64 miles per hour!!! The crews have to have
flak jackets with flotation and helmets because of the possibility of a high
speed crash! In a sailboat!

Amazing technology.

Bill

[GabbyM]

As for "rich mans sport". What's an NFL or Major League Baseball team selling for these days?

[popper]

It's always been a rich man's sport but I like to see the technology changes. The old boys were the first to have steel masts, really new designs, etc. Kind of like car racing, developed a lot of good stuff. The skill in skippering one of those is tremendous. No pro sport is for poor or weak of heart. I used to watch the barefoot boys skiing in Long Beach behind the drag boats. I don't want to do a flying W @ 80 mph, done that @ 30 and water is just as hard as dirt.

[Wal']

Yachting has never really changed.............standing under a cold shower tearing up $100 dollar bills is still the best description I've heard.. :bigsmyl2:

[JeffinNZ]

"Kiwis on a shoestring budget. . . . ." Jeff, you got to be kidding! I have zero idea about
the actual $$ but even a low budget in this game is HUGE and they are funded by the
Arab oil $$, plus a whole bunch of other sponsors. I'd sure like to have the scrap
left over from making that "shoestring"!

Congrats on your sailors and designers, that is a very, very fast boat.

I was amazed to see a boat running at twice the wind speed and making
about 56 kts, (IIRC ) which is 64 miles per hour!!! The crews have to have
flak jackets with flotation and helmets because of the possibility of a high
speed crash! In a sailboat!

Amazing technology.

Bill

Trust me. Compared to the money Larry is throwing at it we are sailing on pocket change. He has TWO boats. We have one. If we break it.......

[MtGun44]

Doesn't look like it will break, and the sailors seem to be really doing an
outstanding job. Weird to see their flat turns and the lateral acceleration
is high enough that the crews have difficulty moving around during the
corners.

Bill

[JeffinNZ]

Bill, I would LOVE to see some strain gauges on the aerofoils etc. The load must be something else.

[MtGun44]

Jeff,

As a structures guy, I am impressed and amazed at those boats. VERY high loads on the centerboard/foils
and the rudder/foils when those beasties rise up and literally fly across the water. AMAZING that they
can do it, from a structures and stability and control standpoint.

I have sailed since I was about 13, but always in somebody else's boats and never was a real expert, just
a decent amateur. But I have done it enough to really appreciate those machines.

I hope we beat you, but I don't think it will happen. Kiwis are some fine sailors, a well proven fact.

Bill

[gnoahhh]

AC racing has about as much relevance as Formula 1 racing, but OMG is it fun to watch! Speaking as a long time yacht carpenter (retired) and participant in the local sail boat racing scene (retired from that, too) I am truly amazed at how far technology has taken us. Don't get me wrong, I would rather have the wooden Sparkman&Stevens 33' Pilot that my pal and I scratch-built a couple years ago over a carbon fiber wonder boat, but still...

[Chev. William]

My favorite AC quote: "So, Dennis, how does it feel to be the only man to lose America's Cup? Twice?"
David

I thought Sir Thomas Lipton lost Four times?
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Bad Water Bill]

Dan convinced them that "BULLPLATELUBE" was great stuff.:bigsmyl2:

Seeing is believing.

[Sensai]

Bill, it's the same way an airplane goes up when there's no "up" wind. Once the sails are full, if rigged right, they assume the shape of airfoils. They create "lift" in the lateral plane, so they can go faster than the wind. Standard sailboats can go faster than the wind, but it takes some special designs to go double the wind speed. If you want to see some fast "sailing", check out the ice skimmers. Those guys are nuts!

[Sensai]

I think you got it. True a sailboat doesn't have an engine, but as far as the airfoil is concerned, an airplane engine only propels the airfoil through the air to create an artificial wind. Best wishes, Gary

[popper]

Sailed on Quivira when I was a kid. Had the Crazy Dane as he was called doing the ice sailing thing till he lost the mast. 30 knot wind from 3 points and very little friction from the runners. He only had about 40' of sail, off a Lido 14. Ice boats on Michigan used to get 60 knots easy. The Hobie 16 cats made about 10 tacks up that pond and were really busy guys.

[Duckiller]

Sir Thomas Lipton never lost the America's Cup because he never had it. Dennis Conner had it and lost it. Should have quietly gone off the stern the first time.

[2wheelDuke]

I think you got it. True a sailboat doesn't have an engine, but as far as the airfoil is concerned, an airplane engine only propels the airfoil through the air to create an artificial wind. Best wishes, Gary

Speaking of foils, these new race sailboats are hydrofoils and are up un underwater wings when they're at speed. Those are some incredible feats of engineering.

I saw a show about them one night in the middle of the night. The crews train like professional athletes to run the winches and move around the boat and work as efficiently as possible.

[Dale in Louisiana]

If the wind is blowing steady at 50 mph.
For maximum speed the racing sail boat keeps that wind at 90 degrees to it.
How fast in mph can that racing boat go? (My guess 50 mph ground speed)

I think the head wind effecting the boat would be about 25 mph.(?)
So the boat is moving 25 mph faster then the head wind; is that how they can say the boat goes faster then the wind?

Believe me, it works. It's just that seeing it working on those monsters instead of a light-hulled small boat is more impressive.

dale in Louisiana

[MtGun44]

Max speed is not at 90 deg to wind, more like 20-30 deg with these boats or even less. They sail very
much into the wind. How close a boat can sail to the wind direction is called "how close it points
to the wind". These hard wing boats point very close to the wind.

The wing "sail" creates lift when air moves over it. So the air is moving at some speed relative
to the water, say 25 mph. If the boat is going through the air at 20 mph the total air velocity over the wing is
20 + 25 or 45 mph. Well, 45 mph airflow over the wing produces a lot more lift than 25 mph . Lift on a wing
is proportional to the square of the airspeed, so at 25 mph you get some constants (based on wing shape and
size) times 25 squared = 625. At 45 mph you get the same constants (since wing shape and size don't change)
multiplied times 45 squared which 2025, so you have 3.24 times the lift. So the force driving the boat is 3.24 times
as much at 45 mph (wind speed plus boat speed) as it is with the boat going at zero speed (just wind speed).

Now, they lift the hulls out of the water on hydrofoils mounted on the centerboards (tall thin keels) and the
bottom of the tall thin rudders. This dramatically reduces the overall boat drag (which is water drag plus
air drag, water drag being much greater) so the boat accelerates as it get up on the hydrofoils. Increasing
the boat speed also increases the airspeed over the wing more - even though the wind speed hasn't changed,
and more airspeed means more lift, so the boat accelerates even more. Eventually, the lift force equals
the drag force and the boat speed stops increasing. But these things are going like stink at that point.

These things actually end up going 50-60+ mph in 23-25 mph winds. So they ARE really going more than
twice the wind speed.

A wing sail works NOTHING like an old square rig sail mostly caught the air like a parachute and
you could mostly go downwind(ish) and FAR slower than the wind. Bigger and better keels helped
the boats point a bit upwind but maybe only within 45 degrees or more of the wind direction.
Later square riggers had lots oftriangular sails and could rig their square sails to work a bit like
(bad) wings, so they could point up into the wind pretty well.

More modern sloop rigged sails with the big Genoa type jibs (front sail) work more like a wing,
although not a really good one because they only have one surface and are flexible, so not
in exactly the correct shape like a hard wing. Hard wings a nearly worthless going downwind,
so they pop huge spinnakers which pretty much are big parachutes. Downwind it is all about
area of sail since it is not acting like a wing.

Bill

[popper]

Only one to go, today, winner take all. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/25/sports/after-comeback-for-the-ages-a-last-dash-for-americas-cup.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
A good sloop rig can point close to 20 deg against the wind. Even a slow hull can come close to planeing down wind.

[MtGun44]

Amazingly, the US team has won 7 straight to fight back to even ground. Winner today
takes the series.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/25/sports/after-comeback-for-the-ages-a-last-dash-for-americas-cup.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Bill

[Bad Water Bill]

WE WON WE WON

Just announced on the radio.:bigsmyl2:[smilie=s:[smilie=p:[smilie=p:

[Duckiller]

Sorry Jeff

[JeffinNZ]

Well, it was good while it lasted. Man alive that boat is fast.

Kiwi's merrily throwing themselves under buses as I type.

It's worth remembering though that both the boats were Kiwi designed........ ;-)

[MtGun44]

Jeff,

Congratulations on a fantastic job by the New Zealand team. I am quite impressed that
such a small country can produce such an impressive array of skilled folks. Well done,
and WOW was the race series close. Your team almost won it a week ago.

Truly international teams, designers, captains, strategists and grinders from everywhere
working on teams based in different countries.


Bill

[Driver man]

Revived this old thread as I am watching the preliminary racing between the new class monohulls racing on the Waitamata in Auckland New Zealand. A lot of tech has gone into the current designs and to watch 75foot boats blasting over the ocean at close to 60mph powered only by the wind is awesome.The last 3 days racing has mixed high tech with old fashioned sailing skills and cunning. As we head into the Americas cup races early next year things are only going to get better and the boats are going to get faster. The American boat looks very fast but I think the NZ boat has the edge.

[ericp]

While the current boats are very impressive and technologically interesting I wish they would go back to a non foiling monohull. I really liked the 12 meters not only for the taking duels but because they were comparably affordable so you would get a wide field of challengers. Folks like Charlie Morgan could build a "Heritage" and have a real shot.
Not saying I think they should return to 12m but some sort of roughly 50-60' planing monohull development class.


Eric

[Driver man]

Americas cup racing is happening in Auckland NZ with Prada (Italy) the contender. Amazing speeds against the wind ,40knot speeds with a 10mph wind. Very exciting to watch. Makes a change from reloading today.

[Winger Ed.]

I haven't followed or watched it in a few years.

Does anybody know if all the boat owners that lost still sue whoever wins?

[namsag]

I was kind of shocked just yesterday, was flipping channels and ran across the America's Cup, oh I haven't seen that in a long long time, I'll check it out.

Holy cow I got no frame of reference for what those folks are doing, pretty amazing stuff.

My wife used to occasionally crew as a substitute for her company's owner on his sailboat in local races around north Texas/DFW. She loved it. In those days it bore some superficial relation to what was happening in the Amercica's Cup, but not today!

[Plate plinker]

As for "rich mans sport". What's an NFL or Major League Baseball team selling for these days?

Too much. I wouldn’t give half of what they ask for those rosters of whiners.

[David2011]

I thought Sir Thomas Lipton lost Four times?
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Ok, a little late, but Tipton was sailing for the UK. He never had the cup to lose. He just failed to win it.

[Driver man]

Just watched New Zealand win the 36th Americas Cup against Team Prada from Italy. A very exciting series of races . Now all the excitement is over I can go back to reloading.