RN for hunting

[Wadestep]

I am about 1 year into casting boolits. I don't have many rifle moulds yet, and the only one I have for my 30-06 is a lee c309-180-r. I'm getting good results out of my S&W I-bolt with Varget. I'm still working up the 'perfect ' load, but preliminary results show certainly enough accuracy for deer hunting. My main question is: is this a reasonable boolit to be directing towards deer?
My concern is that the RN profile will poke right through a whitetail without doing enough damage. I'm not concerned about boolit weight (nearly 190gr with GC) or velocity or accuracy. Just the nose profile. If the concensus is to not use this mould, I likely will have to shoot j-words at deer this season, as I am in a group buy for the MiHec 30 Heavy Sil brass mold with a HP, but I'm sure I won't get it in time for deer season (and workign up a load beforehand).
What say the group?

[Harter66]

I'm in kind of the same boat except for elk.

I use a Lee push through sizer and push them through base first to flat point.
There's another thread very close here that asks the same . The general agreement is that an FP is prefered but not an absolute.

[9.3X62AL]

Wadestep, take a look at the BruceB Softpoint Casting Method posted within this site. It is time-consuming, but you need only make 10-20 of the softpoints for actual hunting--and my tests of the SPs vs. homogenous alloy castings of the same design show no targeting differences in 4 rifle calibers so far.

[Wadestep]

OK, I'll check it out. I am worried about getting an aluminium mould hot enough to re melt lead, but I'll check into it more. That is probably already addressed.
Thanks

[jhalcott]

I think a STEEL mold would be a worse choice for Bruces method. I have tried it and also just use 2 pots one of pure and one harder alloy. A dipper made from an empty shell for the pure nose, and bottom pour the base makes an acceptable (though not pretty) bullet. I have also used a FLAT point top punch to alter the nose of RN style bullets. IF you do NOT think the nose shape makes a difference, Hang a gallon detergent bottle full of water at 100 yards. First shoot it with a RN and check with your spotting scope for a hit. Then use the SAME bullet with a flat (or hollow) point to shoot that bottle. You will NOT need to use the spotter to see the results! I have used RN's to shoot thru 18-20 inch bales of wet pack that barely moved the bale, while the exact same load with a FNed bullet would drive the bale of the table. There was definite wound channel differences also.

[BruceB]

Both aluminum and iron moulds were used to develop the method.

No apparent harm came to my aluminum moulds, manufactured by several different makers (including Lees).

I really have no preference between these materials; either will work.

I will reiterate: I am NOT prepared to accept any bullet with a visible flaw at the meeting-point of the two metals. Either the bullet appears perfect, or it is remelted. There are enough uncertainties in this hobby, and this is one which we CAN eliminate right at the beginning.

[MBTcustom]

If it were me, I would just file a flat nose on your loaded boolits and make sure they still hit the same place. Works great for .22lr, and it works for HP rifle too. Don't overthink it.
That said, the soft nose, two tone boolit thing is a very tempting endeavor. Takes some time, but it would probably be worth it!

[KCSO]

I went one better and made a cherry andcut my lee mould to a very round nose and the full rund nose works well on deer size game. I usually shoot a 30-40 Krag and push a 180 grain rn bullet at 1950 fps. Works as weel or better than a jacketed 30-30. ( how do you tell for sure, is ther dead, deader and deadest?)

[1Shirt]

It is kinda hard to beat success!
1Shirt!

[Smoke4320]

its deader-est :) :)

[pdawg_shooter]

Or...cast soft and paper patch.

[BruceB]

Pure lead in a HUNTING bullet is a distinct possibility.

On one occasion, I loaded about a dozen rounds of .416 Rigby with pure-lead RCBS 416-350 bullets. At 2050 fps, these landed at the same point-of-impact at 100 yards as did the same bullets cast from COWW..... the group size was marginally bigger, but there appeared to be NO LEADING after firing all the rounds.

This leads me to ask: why not do the pre-hunt work-up with normal, alloyed cast loads, and then carry pure-lead bullets for the actual hunt? Pure lead is GUARANTEED to perform well on impact, which is why the paper-patched soft bullets work so nicely.

My .416, at least, has demonstrated that this tactic is highly workable. I'll have to give this some thought, and maybe try it in a few other rifles. Larger calibers are probably the best venue for pure lead, but who knows? If 2000 fps is practicable for a few rounds, or even just one or two rounds..... that would cover a LOT of hunting situations.

[leadman]

I have thought about flat pointing some boolits myself. I envisioned a piece of wood with a boolit sized hole in it and then use a flat washer around the top of the boolit so you can file it flat. The thickness of the wood or number of washers could be varied to get the height desired. While not absolutely precise I think it would work fine for a few hunting loads. May try it later today.

[Whiterabbit]

search the hunting with CB forum for the 358009. seems to kill just fine!

The quote that stuck with me from that thread:

"Kinda makes you rethink hunting with a round nose....."

[mroliver77]

I have shot deer with the 311284 cast hard out of a krag at 2000+ fps. 1"+ hole through the deers and lots of blood. Deers died fast. Now I put a small flat on them with the Lyman sizer at the bottom of the stroke. They can be slowed down a bit with the flat on them.

I like all the speed I can get as I can get shots at longer ranges and there is not always time to think about trajectory.
J

[Loudenboomer]

You can also get yourself a Forrester hollow pointer and drill an 1/8" hole. This is also a little slow but you only need a dozen or so for deer season.

[Wadestep]

Those are all some excellent ideas. I'm going to try
1st) a couple boolits at around 1800fps with nearly pure lead. If I can shoot 2-3 with fair accuracy and mild leading (or less) than that about solves the problem. They've got GCs on them anyways. I really only require 3 MOA for 100 yard hunting right now.
2nd) filing a flat. I'd have to be conviced its repeatable and accurate.
3rd) soft pointing as per BruceB. that would also be a good solution.
4th) get into paper patching. That would give enough velocity to not worry. I don't think this will happen for this deer season, though.
Thanks
wade

[Whiterabbit]

SWW would be fine.

FYI, I shoot soft lead bullets from my markX 7x57. SWW or old fishing sinkers, range lead, whatever I can get. 130 grains moving 2000 fps. With gas check and believe it or not, tumble lubed with straight LLA. the bore is shiny after firing. Believe it or not, I barely do. It's doing everything wrong. But works so right! It's not my big game load though. rabbits and the like. I guess I could take out a CA deer with it, they get small out here.

How funny, I have a pic uploaded of this round:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=59324&d=1358906826

It's the one in the middle of course. I have recovered a bullet or two after firing, but it's not really a bullet. More like a smear of lead. Nothing else left.

[GabbyM]

Use a heat treated alloy for a harder bullet to hold up to velocity and still have a malleability to expand without fragmentation.
Tried and true water dropped 50/50 ww/ Pb. Hit the nose with a 2nd cut Mill or smooth file and you should be good to go.
Any shot hitting a rib or larger bone isn't going to need a flat when using a malleable alloy. You can get to much meat damage.

If you are shooting any load at velocity over 1,950 fps from the 06 be sure to test it at least to 200 yards. Many of the faster loads will loose it out past 100 yards. How much of the H-Varget powder have you tried under your 190 grain boolit? 40.0 grains should put you around 2,100 to 2,200 fps. A charge placing you at 1,925 fps is almost guaranteed to shoot good. Faster is hot rodding but often works in the right rifle.

[Wadestep]

So far I have only shot 35 and 36 grains, but the accuracy was excellent (for me). I've got 5 each 37, 39, 40, 41, and 42 gr loaded and ready to test. I'm hoping the 39-41 gr will show a sweet spot. Aside from BP, this is the first cast rifle boolit I've worked on.
wade

[Wadestep]

Well... I spent some time this AM working on putting a soft nose on my Lee c309-180-R. Here's what I did:
took about 40 gr of splitshot (very soft lead), melted it in the nose of the mold while dipping the mold in the melt. Sprue plate open, so I watched it melt. Then took mold out of melt, briefly held it on wet towel until the temp had dropped enough in the mold to be good and solid. Then poured a harder lead for the rest of the boolit - a mix with a little antimony and tin in it. Then I held the mold in the melt again until the sprue re-liquefied. Since the sprue on top liquefied and only bottom of the mold was in the melt, it is reasonable to assume that the entire boolit inside was melted also. Then I cooled it, and water-dropped it. So far, so good.
Now here's the problem:
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu118/wadestep/misc%202/IMG_20130927_140630_195_zps37af7eb0.jpg (http://s639.photobucket.com/user/wadestep/media/misc%202/IMG_20130927_140630_195_zps37af7eb0.jpg.html)
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu118/wadestep/misc%202/IMG_20130927_140637_884_zps88ea58cd.jpg (http://s639.photobucket.com/user/wadestep/media/misc%202/IMG_20130927_140637_884_zps88ea58cd.jpg.html)
The noses just fall right off! One fell off while tapping the mold handles, and the other fall off with mild thumb pressure. I'm really not sure they would hold up to firing, and they would definitely just immediately separate when hitting a deer. What gives?
Thanks
wade

[Wadestep]

PS - I cast 8 of these, and every one that I made any slight attempt to apply pressure to the noses just fell off. None held up to any pressure.

[9.3X62AL]

Pure lead's melt point is 621* F, and its fluidity thins as it heats past that point. Tri-metal alloys melt at ~483* F, and are eutectic--i.e., they are solid at 482*, then liquid at 483* and do not significantly thin out as they are heated past that point. To thin a eutectic alloy (improve its "castability"), it is better to add tin. Short answer is that you cannot assume that because the hard metal has liqified per the sprue metal's indicia that the soft point metal has reached a liquid state to bond with the harder metal. Heat is your friend--use it gratuitously, and the resulting use of heat will slow your production significantly as the castings cool to solidify.

My casting temp for 92/6/2 is 675*-700* when I make boolits of homogenous alloy. When making soft points, I run the 92/6/2 drive band metal at 825*-850*, to better enable the soft points to melt and bond with the hard metal. The sprue metal melts, and the mould stays floating in the molten alloy for as much as a minute to assure the point has also melted and a good bond has formed. The mould is removed from the melt, set down GENTLY with the block bottom flat on a heat-proof surface. It often sits for 4-5 minutes before I strike the sprue plate and open the mould.

[leadman]

Did you flux the soft lead? I found that I had to do a normal casting of a soft lead boolit and then cut the nose off where I wanted and put it back in the mold. I suppose if you had some acid you could clean the sinker first so it would bond.
I have also had a seperate pot of soft lead and a cartridge case cut down to the amount of soft lead I wanted with a wire handle on it. I would pour thei in a hot mold then pour the harder lead in on the top right away. Worked good this way.

[Wadestep]

One of the above answers is likely my problem. 1) I didn't think about how large a difference in melting temps, I suppose it's possible that the pure lead nose did not re-melt fully due to this. 2) I did not flux the sinker lead. I only have one pot right now, and really don't have a good and easy way to do this. If this is the problem, I won't be soft pointing things until at least I empty the current pot. I'll give it another try.

[9.3X62AL]

I flux the pure lead in a separate casting step, and cast "donor slugs" of smaller caliber and lighter weight to use as "point metal". As an example in another thread, I cast some soft point bullets in Lyman #311041 for my Winchester Model 94 x 30-30 WCF. This is 170 grain boolit in 92/6/2 alloy, and I used Lyman #257420 (72 grain bullet) as the donor slug/point metal. BruceB recommended a point weight of about 30% of the boolit's total weight in his thread covering this subject. 72 grains is a bit over that figure, but it has shot well and it did some good work for me on Thursday. See the most recent Cast Boolit RPM Thread (begun by Dan Walker, IIRC) for commentary. I think it is Post #61 therein.

I wonder what sort of metal your fishing sinkers consist of. They could indeed be unalloyed lead, but beware of "mystery metal" used as sinker material. Here in Californistan, we are no longer permitted to use lead in fishing sinkers. I suppose the tree-hugging weed eaters believe the condors will start working sub-surface in the Pacific to earn a living.

[Wadestep]

Well, I re-attempted the soft point experiment. I got the same results. This time, there is no doubt that I waited long enough to re-melt the nose portion. However, the nose and the body easily separated again after water dropping. Luckily, I only spent the time to make 2 this time instead of 8. Again, the amount of force it took to separate the 2 metals was very small. No way would this boolit work - either when launching it or in deer performance. It is possible that the 'lead' I used for the heads was not pure lead. However, in every other way it acts like pure lead. It made a nice looking nose until it just fell off.
Anyways, I don't have the easy capability right now to attempt casting a smaller mold with pure lead, or to use a small dipper with pure lead. Maybe someday when I get another pot, or am otherwise casting pure lead. For now, i'll shoot the jacketed at deer, and RN for cast practice. Hopefully, the group buy will come through for a HP mold. if not, I'll be getting a flat point eventually, just not likely for this season.
I haven't shot cast at an animal yet, and I still have a chance at lobbing a 330 gr .45 in either a muzzle loader with sabot or a Blackhawk in 45 colt. With luck, I'll still get my first deer with cast boolits yet.
wade

[44man]

Heat treated 50-50 should work. I used it in my 45-70 revolver and it kind of took the deer apart.
They came out 18 to 20 BHN and it does not hurt expansion at all.
It made such a mess I am thinking of 75-25 for a batch to test on a deer. I will just water drop them.

[unique]

I shot a deer with 311284 (RN) cast (WW) traveling around 1700 fps and it left a big hole and the deer went about two steps. The internal track was impressive and way out of proportion to what I expected.

I am not sure there is much difference between RN and FN when using WW at 1700 fps. Now drop the velocity or raise the BHN then there certainly would be a difference at some point.

[Wadestep]

That's exactly the kind of info I'm looking for! Was that straight WW or mixed? Air cooled, water dropped, heat treated? I'd hoping a 50-50 mix of lead/ww should work, hopefully air cooled if it will shoot - hard enough for shooting at 1700-2000 fps with some accuracy, maybe still will expand or at least deform. That's what 44man used in his 45-70. however, there's a big difference between a long pointy .308 projectile and a typical 45-70.
I don't mind experimenting, but Id rather not do it at an animal's expense. I've been with others where the deer wasn't recovered, and I didn't much like it.

[44man]

Actually I oven hardened my 50-50 boolits because Babore sent me them to try. If I would have cast them I would have just water dropped. It makes them more accurate in my gun but does not change expansion at all because you do not change the alloy.
I am getting a handle on the revolvers but I sure don't know about cast in rifles for hunting even though I shot thousands of cast. I could not use a rifle in Ohio and prefer revolvers here in WV.
Don't be afraid to harden a 50-50 alloy so it shoots better.
I need to defer to others about rifle alloys.

[9.3X62AL]

Wadestep--

I am sorry to read that your BBSP ventures haven't panned out. My results have been very positive, in both iron blocks and aluminum blocks.

One idea I've never exploited much was the use of unalloyed lead as handgun or rifle boolit metal. My supplies of this material have never been extensive, and the metal I did have was set aside for muzzle-loading uses. Now, I have a good amount of the unalloyed stuff--and in the revolvers and lower-pressure rifles I need to try some softer boolits to see how they fare. I'm guessing that a 400 grain-class 45-70 boolit would rivet over and mushroom nicely, even at 1873 velocities. Another guess is that any velocity much in excess of that figure would call for a gas check to prevent the boolit from turning to mud in mid-bore. That said, I've run Minie and Maxi balls in muzzle loaders to 1400 FPS+ and never had a bit of leading......but the dynamics of The Holy Black are way different than those of smokeless fuels. Should be fun. Bruce's work with his big-bore rifles and pure lead is intriguing.

[Digital Dan]

Comment earlier re: velocity/hardness pretty much covers the question I think. Perhaps I've been lucky with smokeless cartridges but to date every gun I've shot CBs thru has run up to 1600-1900 fps w/o leading and with more than adequate accuracy.

I cast for 3 X .30-30s, a 7x57, .25-20 Win and SS, a .38-55, .38, 44 mag and .45-70... and 3 ML bullet guns. Save for the MLs I use 50/50 alloy with 8oz tin in a 25# pot, air cooled. The ML guns shoot pure or 1:60. RN, FN doesn't seem to matter pro or con.

Paper patch as well, exclusively with pure lead. Thing I see with pure isn't any more complicated than pure expands like crazy and though you can drive it fast it will cost you penetration depth. 1400-1500 fps is a good, perhaps maximum velocity at impact for such bullets if you like two holes in deer sized critters.

[9.3X62AL]

There is a sub-set of cast boolit hobbyists that strive for ultra-high velocities with accuracy, and given rifles with orderly dimensioning and components that mesh well together and get along with that well-fit rifle.......high velocities and tight groups can be had.

I've begun some cautious advances in that realm myself with a few rifles and calibers. These are baby-steps currently, and I view this venue in kind of an esoteric light. What has impressed me over the years of rifle cast booliting is how tractable--how accurate--and how relatively uncomplicated it is to have success in most calibers with gas-checked designs using common alloys and running the boolits 150 FPS either side of 1700 FPS. I almost call this a "default setting". I need to run some pure-lead gas-checked boolits at 1700 FPS in the 30-30.....the 30-06.....the 9.3 x 62.....the soon-to-land 38-55.....and 45-70 to assess their viability in the game fields and their accuracy potential as shooting continues past the first "cold" shot.

[pdawg_shooter]

I load pure lead, (2% tin added) up to 2200+ fps in all my 30cals and my .458 Winchester, BUT I paper patch them. These make awesome game bullets.