Bald Eagle Deaths.

[eyehawk]

Attached is a newspaper article on the death of the eagles along the Upper Mississipppi River corridor.

What are your impressions on the article?

[Tonto]

MN has the second highest number of nesting bald eagles in the country, second to Alaska. In Saint Paul, we recently got results of high lead levels in eagle chicks, turns out there used to be a lead smelting operation near where these particular nests were. I suspect lead ammunition may contribute to some eagle mortality but suspect more are hit by cars or collide with transmission wires. The eagles here are doing very well. The clipping appears to be a get the lead out piece by a USFWS biologist.

[fishhawk]

It's BS in the winter the eagles hang around the Wisconsin river and the Mississippi river they aren't out eating gut piles from deer season and very few road kills any of the gut piles I have left in the woods are gone in less that 3 days from other scavengers.

[Zymurgy50]

"Detectable amounts of lead" Is that one part per million? one part per billion? one part per trillion?
"High speed muzzleloaders"? Last time I looked at ballistics tables for 12ga. slugs the 7/8 or 1 oz. slugs were exiting the barrel at a much higher velocity than I can get out of my 50 cal.
My impression is that it is scare tactics to ban all lead anywhere, not just use in ammunition.
Whats next? No more lead acid batteries in you cars or lawn mowers?????? We all go back to the jaw breaking crank starters????

[44man]

Eagles eat more fish then anything else.
Natural water lead content and what is in fish is never figured in. Eagles are not eating boolits.

[btroj]

Just because we can detect it doesn't mean it matters.

My blood certainly contains a detectable level of lead but I am hardly poisoned.

[Idaho Mule]

It's BS, as stated before. JW

[462]

Same junk science, lies, and fraud that the condor savers have used for decades.

[scb]

Well here's an article about eagles being killed by the greenies holy grail
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/09/12/study-says-wind-farms-have-killed-alarming-number-eagles/

[waksupi]

I argued with that idiot for a couple years. He would concede that it was quite possible the lead, and the actual cause of death may have easily been from some other source. He was getting paid to report it his way, though.

[wistlepig1]

Yep, more BS from the left. They will not be happy until we all are eating grass clipping in a mud hut. But let's not talk about their 3000-5000 ft mansions!

[NoZombies]

Well, wind farms are killing bald eagles.

http://news.yahoo.com/study-wind-farms-killed-67-eagles-5-years-160226373.html

I think as a test case, we should ban wind farms and subsidize shooters and see what happens.

[MaryB]

What they didn't say is most of the wind farm deaths are from old lattice tower turbines that are being removed from service because they are at end of life. New turbines use the tubular towers that don't provide nesting or perches

[quasi]

here in Canada our Aboriginals kill them for their feathers, they kill Golden Eagles as well. They kill them to make costumes for their "Pow Wow " competitions. It is big business to them with big cash prizes.

[jonp]

There is no evidence that lead ammunition contributes to any increase in the mortality rate in eagles anymore than loons or condors. It is junk science along with banning pb coww because of this. Lead,is inert in this form. The gun banners and anti-hunters have been beating this drum for years in an effort to stop hunting and make ammo so expensive as no-one can afford it. The anti-hunters have been trying to get lead banned in cali for a long time and were just "shot down" in trying to get the EPA to regulate it.
Everyone needs to be aware of this and attend all meetings of elected officials to make our voices heard. The wackos show up

[randyrat]

I asked an official at a rifle/shotgun/pistol range during a turkey training class; We see Grouse, turkeys,Pheasants, Deer, bear rooming around this range when they are shut down. How is it possible they are still alive with all the lead shot from traps shooting? (thousands of pounds are there)
He couldn't answer that......You see he just finished a speech on how dangerous lead shot is to the environment and animals.
I came to the conclusion the official had been bombarded with all kinds of propaganda "on the dangers of lead"
There is a big slow "brainwashing push" going on here coming from other states and green freaks.

Lots of eagles around here.

[jonp]

The "danger" is from ingesting the lead accidentally while feeding on the carcasses of animals either shot by hunters and not recovered as in the Condors or lost sinkers either on the bottom of ponds and lakes or in fish as with loons and eagles. There is no evidence either is dangerous to anything but it did manage to get lead sinkers banned in VT and other states as a danger to loons and lead shot banned for migratory waterfowl again with no evidence at all.

[fishhawk]

I still fail to see how they think lead jigs and sinkers affect loons. Now whats the biggest fish any one has seen a loon eat? Myself I haven't seen them eat one larger than 6 inches and they don't eat dead fish so where is the lead coming from sure ain't jigs and sinkers!

[engineer401]

What they didn't say is most of the wind farm deaths are from old lattice tower turbines that are being removed from service because they are at end of life. New turbines use the tubular towers that don't provide nesting or perches

Actually, the propellers generate very high wind speeds at the blade tips that the birds and bats cannot always gauge. Wind farms using a hollow tube towers still kill raptors and bats. That is irrefutable. Wind farms have been springing up throughout Central Washington State citing green attributes. They are unreliable and scar the landscape. They don't kill fish like the reliable hydro-electric dams. One can only conclude that killing fish is not acceptable but killing raptors and bats is. It perfectly clear politics has taken the place of true science and statistical analysis. They use words like "may" and other vague terminology to win their arguments. Many times they will resort to bullying and other unsavory tactics to win.

Back to the original point. This seems to be another way to squeeze the 2nd Amendment. As correctly pointed out in an earlier post, the article seems only to look at hunting for a lead source. This relationship between hunting and eagle deaths is anecdotal at best. By eliminating or ignoring other potential sources of lead the author is cooking the results which is dishonest. We should not be surprised by this. Take it from a guy who has spent more that 20 years in a career arguing with and questioning environmental regulators and their "interpretation" of the rules. Sadly, environmental regulation has become more of a political solution than a scientific one.

[Love Life]

Another heart warming article from the State Science Institute.

If you do not know what the State Science Institute is, then you owe it to yourself to find out. You can thank me later! :bigsmyl2:

[W.R.Buchanan]

This all comes under the heading of "liberal science."

"Liberal Science" is all about using studies that support a particular theory but in no way encompass the whole subject.

They are designed to be biased towards a particular viewpoint with no regard for the whole truth.

We here in California invented this type of science, and it drives much of the lawmaking in this state.

This is the product of the Insane. Insanity is defined as the inability to discern between reality and fantasy, whether it be induced inadvertently or deliberately. Both produce the same effect.

ANY TIME you hear BS like this you need to react heavily against it.

It is ALL ABOUT "the lie that is told so many times it becomes the truth!"

I jump in people's ship when I hear this kind of BS. Everyone here needs to do this as well. With 28,000 members we can be heard!

If you don't object publically they win and when they win life sucks!

They are insane and this is the point that needs to be discussed, not the lead content of anything.

Randy

PS: I just found out it is illegal to kill moles in CA now! So I'm just supposed to let them tear up my property because some idiot did a study and got a bunch of idiot politicians that are no more qualified to hold their jobs than the moles, to pass a law?

I see gun control laws in the same light! Made by fools and to be ignored since killing a mole is just as serious an offense as buying a hi cap magazine. Note: you can own them, you just can't buy them! Makes sense huh?

It will take 20 years to fix all the damage that Obama has done. By then everyone will forget how bad the democrats are and we will get another dose of their excrement shoved down our throats.

Life goes on.

[koehlerrk]

Well now, let's consider for one moment the fact that the highest concentrations of lead ore ONE THE PLANET are in Missouri....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Missouri_Lead_District

And as for copper bullets... heck, they cause more issues than lead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity

[jonp]

The "lead hysteria " has caused the military to experiment with green ammo just like the enviro wackos have caused the navy to try out $50/gal fuel for their ships.

[largom]

I have a cousin who was shot with birdshot when he was 20 yrs. old. Still has some pellets under his skin. He is now 74, wonder if he will die of lead poison or old age?

Larry

[Old Caster]

Not only does Missouri have more lead than everywhere, it exists here in creeks and rivers in pure form where it can actually be seen when looking at rock.

Windmills kill birds because their blade velocity is so swift that the birds don't see them coming and can't duck in time.

Wind power is about 8 times as expensive as coal and is very unreliable because the wind quits and nuclear or coal can't come back on line fast enough to cover for them.

When wind is used by windmills, the wind slows or stops and changes the climate in an unknown manner.

Liberals think with emotions because what they say is what they want or feel is correct instead of dealing with science and reality which is why they either have no answers or come up with feel good ones.

[guninhand]

Watched a park ranger at the Grand Canyon show an xray of a dead deer with lots of minute lead particles and explain how this was killing condors. This was where a real condor was flying around. He couldn't explain how hundreds of years of hunters eating game animals, including pellet riddled birds and rabbits gave no concomitant evidence. He couldn't explain how those small particles never showed up in my big game kills or why I never saw them in ballistic gelatin. He seemed uncomfortable when I mentioned agenda-driven science and the relentless drive to eliminate guns. I'll bet the great bulk of tourists he talked to believed him though.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Good for you for calling him out!

This is what I was talking about above.

Liberals think with their emotions basically because they not intellectually capable of doing otherwise.

I have a rule I have developed that falls in behind Murphy's Law.

It is called Buchanan's 90% rule.

"In ANY given endeavor, 90% of the meaningful work is done by 10% of the participants.

Of that 10% only 10% of them really know what they are doing."

The rub here is "Any Given Endeavor."

A person can be a genius at math, but not be able to tie his shoes. (Einstein.)

Just because a person is a great motorcycle racer, does not mean he can build a motorcycle.

Just because a person has a PHD in BFD, doesn't mean he knows how to cook an egg.

Actors can act, but why would you look to them as opinion leaders when they know nothing of what they speak.

I hope you can all see where I am going with this.

The average person looks at someone they admire for something, and tend to think that their words are all encompassing. When in actual fact every person has something they are good at and a bunch of things they don't know ship about. IN extreme cases they are good at one thing and complete idiots everywhere else. (Idiot Savant)

Diversity is the key to optimum survival. This is what the blurb under every one of my signatures is all about.

Everyone falls into a percentage of overall competence in the real world, where complete knowledge of everything is 100%. Obviously this is impossible because no person can know everything. However there are people who know about more things than others do, and those are the people we need leading us.

Next time someone is pontificating about something like lead poisoning of Condors, ask them to prove the source of the lead, and also ask if the lead actually killed the bird?

I think you'll be surprised by the answer. It damn sure won't be decisive. It will be a bunch of back pedaling, and uh ER's, and other BS!

The way to tell if someone knows what he is talking about is to ask them an uncommon question and see how fast they return the answer.

If they know what they are talking about, the answer will come back immediately and completely understandable in clear and concise terms.

If not then they are probably FOS!

If they use one or two words in a sentence that nobody understands, ask for clarification. If they can't clarify with the same certainty and speed then they are probably FOS!

By "probably" I mean 99%. Refer to Buchanan's 90% Rule above.

I have spent a life time sussing this info out. I have yet to see a viable exception.

There is a Bell Curve that defines human intelligence. It is fact!

And using that as an Axiom, by definition, 50% of the population are below "average intelligence."

You can now see the basis for Buchanan's 90% rule very easily. Work out the numbers from there.

Intelligence Quotient, IQ, is based on your mental age over your physical age. Emotion is NOT intelligence! in fact it is the exact opposite. It is reaction to a stimulus and nothing more.

Your dog is smarter than this.

Just because someone is a Constitutional Law Scholar doesn't mean he should be leading the world. He uses his knowledge of the undereducated to sell his agenda. and he's not bad at it either.

The fact that he deliberately lies daily to the American and World public speaks volumes about his integrity as a human being. He is a very specialized person. I doubt very seriously that he could change the oil in his car, even if he owned one!

He is the most significant example of the validity of my Rule that I have ever witnessed.

Please note: Buchanan's 90% rule was coined around 1975 when I was 25 years old, and in a "altered mental state." It is unchanged since then and the evidence of it's validity grows with each passing year.

I rest my case.

Randy

[selmerfan]

The Minnesota Conservation Digest published this load of B.S. for this month's edition also. The only considered source of the contamination is gut piles. I just can't make the numbers add up. One of the neater things I have ever seen happened with bald eagles this summer in northern Minnesota. I went on my first trip into the Boundary Waters Canoe Area. The given advice on disposing of fish guts is to take them 150 feet away from shore and away from your camp site. My friend who has been in the BWCA dozens of times just laughed and said, "We have a better way, a family tradition." He took the fish guts in a bag after cleaning, hopped in a canoe and paddled to a nearby exposed rock near shore, but easily visible, and laid the fish guts there. Within 5 minutes, there were gulls screaming, then bald eagles dive-bombing the gulls to run them off. One time we had four eagles circling right next to camp, waiting for fish guts. We didn't see them before, but they sure found the fish guts quick! Happened three days in a row.

[fredj338]

Not unlike the Condor out here, the left wants to badly blame this on the sport shooter/hunter & lead bullets. It's just all BS. In the dozens of big game animals I have killed, I have only ever recovered one bullet. While there may be a minute amount of lead fragments in the viscera of an animal, I doubt that is the issue. The environment in general is not kind to species that are not adaptable.

[Lights]

I call BS. We have way more Bald Eagles up here than we need in MN. Hell it's hard to keep them away from your farm yard. They love my friends free range chickens.

[lwknight]

"Detectable amounts of lead"
My impression is that it is scare tactics to ban all lead anywhere, not just use in ammunition.
Whats next? No more lead acid batteries in you cars or lawn mowers?????? We all go back to the jaw breaking crank starters????

You are not far off the mark. Eventually car batteries will be packs of UR18650 Li-ion cells.
They will be smaller, lighter and hold more reserve as well as equal cold cranking amps.
They will hold a charge for years and cost 3 to 4 times what we pay now.

[mdi]

Eagles eat more fish then anything else.
Natural water lead content and what is in fish is never figured in. Eagles are not eating boolits.

Makes mucho sense!

[Fishman]

I did not read the article but here are some comments for your consideration.

Birds have gizzards full of rocks. Their job is to pulverize everything the bird eats. Rocks are harder than lead. Undigestible hard items stay in the gizzard until they are too small to be useful in grinding up things. This is unique to birds so stories about lead ingested by humans or people unfortunate enough to have lead fragments in their bodies really are immaterial to the discussion.

There are countless studies of lead toxicity in birds. It is real. The question as to whether it has population effects is more difficult to answer.

Not all science is junk just because a bunch of left wing nut jobs pervert its findings.

[lwknight]

True enough but, once the science has been adulterated and/or perverted , that portion is JUNK science.

[dondiego]

A recent article in the "Michigan Outdoor News" reported that up to 3000 loons died this year in Michigan from botulism poisoning. Apparently, these diving birds are eating fish that have consumed organisms from oxygen depleted water and the botulinum bacteria kill the loons. at least they did their research and didn't blame it on lead!

[RoGrrr]

Some years ago EPA called a "townhall meeting" in my town to talk about high levels of ARSENIC in the drinking water.
Young EPA whipper-snapper said to the 80 and 90 year old people who were sitting in the meeting hall, drinking that water, "You CAN't drink that water. It's got high levels of ARSENIC in it and IT'LL KILL YOU !"
The crusty ol' ******** said to him, "sonny, we been drinking this all our lives and we'll outlive you, poison or not."
He was upset by being 1-upped so he said, "I'll show you. I'll MANDATE a water line be installed from the town up the road that has good water."
The arsenic is still here and people are still drinking it.
He's prolly dead now....

[jonp]

I did not read the article but here are some comments for your consideration.

Birds have gizzards full of rocks. Their job is to pulverize everything the bird eats. Rocks are harder than lead. Undigestible hard items stay in the gizzard until they are too small to be useful in grinding up things. This is unique to birds so stories about lead ingested by humans or people unfortunate enough to have lead fragments in their bodies really are immaterial to the discussion.

There are countless studies of lead toxicity in birds. It is real. The question as to whether it has population effects is more difficult to answer.

Not all science is junk just because a bunch of left wing nut jobs pervert its findings.

there are indeed countless studies of lead toxicity in birds and i have been in on a few of them. I am not convinced that the data supports the theory but rather that the theory was in search of data to prove it on too many of these studies.

Jon
The resident Wildlife Biologist

[Fishman]

there are indeed countless studies of lead toxicity in birds and i have been in on a few of them. I am not convinced that the data supports the theory but rather that the theory was in search of data to prove it on too many of these studies.

Jon
The resident Wildlife Biologist

I would think you are probably right and defer to your experience in the matter.

[jonp]

I want to make clear that I do not discount the theory only that conclusive data linking mortality with elevated lead levels caused by lead ammunition or sinkers is just not there. This is a situation imo similar to global warming. An unproven theory using either inconclusive or falsified data cherry picked to make flawed computer models say what a politicaly driven group of people want it to say in order to advance an agenda. Bad science and worse than useless

Classic "Post hoc ergo propter hoc"

[gbrown]

Sam Rayburn reservoir, SETX and the Neches River south of it both have health warnings as to the amount of fish one should consume from either, on a monthly basis. Has to do with the old creosote pits that were just filled in by the early loggers. Mercury and lead content. Has nothing to do with what we, on this forum, do. Warnings have been there for decades. Any birds (there's plenty) eating those fish are going to get lethal doses. There's lots of other sources of pollution that come from natural erosion that can harm humans and wildlife. Just another example of taking the results of something and slanting it to prove "your" argument.

[KCSO]

Here they are complaining because the wind towers killed an eagle. I see that they figure nationaly 46 eagles were killed by wind towers and we need to DO something. I sure can't see any shortage of eagles anymore in fact they are one of our biggest scavengers. I love to watch the eagles fighting over the gut piles during deer season and dragging dead coons off the road but I sure can't see that they are endangered anymore and in some places are back to pest status.

[1Shirt]

Yep, have seen more than a dozen mature bald eagles on caribou gut piles, and a couple of dozen more immatures waiting for leftovers. Ben Franklin was right, but had the turkey been adopted as the national bird, we would with all of todays bleeding hearts eating eagles.!
1Shirt1

[Bad Water Bill]

How many birds of ALL types are killed at wind farms?

Only the scavengers know.

Wind farms are like FREE FOOD bars.

Years ago they realized birds ACTUALLY FLEW AT NIGHT.

Tall buildings were killing migrating birds by the thousands.

Today they have lights to warn birds away from these hazards.

Has anyone ever seen a wind farm illuminated to warn the birds?

[Jammersix]

This sounds to me like everyone starts with what they believe, and then screams "you're wrong, you're wrong, I'm right, I'm right!" at anyone who believes something else.

[MaryB]

They did extensive studies at the wind farm near me and found bird deaths to be rather low.

[Bad Water Bill]

What time of year did they do the studies?

Could make a big difference if they made the study during the nesting period.

[Iowa Fox]

I live about 200 yards from the Iowa River. In the winter they are as thick as sparrows in a feed lot around here.You should see them line up on the farmers hauling manure out with spreaders around the farms along the Mississippi. Especially when they throw a few dead piglets into the spreader.

[MaryB]

4 year study http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwest-inc.com%2Freports%2Favian_buffalo_ridge.pdf&ei=zXc-UovIDIW52wWAloDwCg&usg=AFQjCNEq8xLDkyyIqlUGg5gp5Umdge3mQQ&bvm=bv.52434380,d.b2I&cad=rja

[scb]

A study paid for by the entity being investigated doesn't hold a lot of water for me. Sorry, it's kinda like Eric Holder investigating himself.

[flint45]

My dad and I were fishing by the dam at lake piru Ca.We watched a golden eagle fly right into a high power line and broke his neck fell straght to the ground dead. went picked it up man that was a big bird I was about 14 at the time 1971 maybe we shuld just stop using electric power ha ha.

[quilbilly]

In the bays around here where I duck hunt, baldies (I call them fish buzzards since they eat lots of old dead fish) are everywhere. Whenever I down a duck it is a race to see who gets to it first, me or a fish buzzard. Steel shot, of course. The fish buzzards also come to my coyote calls which ruins the hunt as you would expect.