Am I being a fool or far?

[Swamp Man]

Hey guys I've been facing something since 2000 that's gotten to the point I don't think I can fight it any longer. I have R.A. I found out in 2000 and been under a doctors care ever since. I was 34 when I found out I'm almost 48 now I'v worked with the aches and pains for years and there getting worse. It's got to where almost any type of labor or lifting over 35-40 pounds causes me pain for days. My hands and feet cramp up a lot easier if I do any type of repetitive motion for more then 15-20 minutes at a time. I'v owned a tree/plant farm for many years but now with this Obamacare hanging over my head I'm going to have cut back on my help which I don't want to do but I have no choice. When this takes place I either have to fill in and make up for those last man hours or shut down. I really don't think I can do it so I have decided to shut the farm and turn over the lease on the 200 acs. I hate the thought of putting good men out of work some have stuck with me since day one a few came from my old landscape/lawn business I ran before the tree farm. I talked with my wife about this and we made the choice together. To sell the stock and split the take on a percentage bases based on the years they have been with us with the workers that will be out of work for who knows how long. None of this is the workers fault and I know it's going to put them in a hard spot but I really don't know what else I can do. After all is said and done I'll be able to pay off all my bills and have a little left but not much. Then I'll be facing something else I don't want to do and that's file for my SS I never thought it would come to this at my age I thought it would be many years before I had to do that.

One of my sons said he understands because he knows how my workers have stuck with me thou thick and thin. Me and my other younger son that lives in Mississippi got into it over this because he said I'd be a fool to split anything with the workers. He said they didn't build the business and I should just let them go but without those guys I may not have made it this far.My son here has a great job and makes way more then he could by taking over the farm my younger son didn't want to move back home to take it over. I have yet to talk to the workers but they all know my health is not great and we are facing this damn Obamacare but none of them have left or asked about their hours or jobs. So am I being a fool or am I doing the right thing by trying to look out for everyone involved? This is all going to be vary hard on me no matter what I do because I'v always been a worker/boss that's tried to be fair as I could with my workers.

[Janoosh]

Coming from a NY'er....you are doing the right thing! Your heart tells you so! I believe that you are doing them and yourselves ....Right!

[Love Life]

Swamp Man- I really have no advice to offer, but I wanted to say something.

I may disagree with you 900% of the time when it comes to where to buy reloading supplies and how much they are worth, but you are a good man for thinking of your workers. A very good man.

I will pray that God guides you in your decision, and that you make out like a fat rat with the sale or lease of your business.

[Swamp Man]

Thanks guys. Love Life I have a lease on the land it will be turned back over to the owner.

[perotter]

That's a darn decent thing you are going to do for the workers.

[MtGun44]

Any way the workers are up to the task of buying out the company and running
it themselves? May make it possible for the business and their jobs to continue
on without you. Maybe you could be an unpaid advisor for the first year or two,
not doing any work because you can't, but helping them to pick up running
things that you have done and they probably don't fully understand. It might
even be fun if they can do the work and you just provide the mentoring for
a while.

Sorry to hear this, but it happens to all of us, in some way, eventually.

Bill

[runfiverun]

maybe one/all of the workers would be willing to take things over.
you could keep them employed and be "out' or partially out at the same time.

[Swamp Man]

Any way the workers are up to the task of buying out the company and running
it themselves? May make it possible for the business and their jobs to continue
on without you. Maybe you could be an unpaid advisor for the first year or two,
not doing any work because you can't, but helping them to pick up running
things that you have done and they probably don't fully understand. It might
even be fun if they can do the work and you just provide the mentoring for
a while.

Sorry to hear this, but it happens to all of us, in some way, eventually.

BillWell I thought about that but I really don't think they could. Most of them are living from pay check to pay check due to the economy few if any of them have much saving.

[DCP]

Any way the workers are up to the task of buying out the company and running
it themselves? May make it possible for the business and their jobs to continue
on without you. Maybe you could be an unpaid advisor for the first year or two,
not doing any work because you can't, but helping them to pick up running
things that you have done and they probably don't fully understand. It might
even be fun if they can do the work and you just provide the mentoring for
a while.

Sorry to hear this, but it happens to all of us, in some way, eventually.

Bill


:goodpost:

Plus 1

[s mac]

Tough situation, it's good to hear you thinking of your crew. Is there a possibility of selling the business?

[fecmech]

Swampman-I have found that following my instincts,heart, gut or whatever you may call it, has worked good for me over the years and I'm sorry the RA has brought you to this point. You have my utmost respect for your plans on behalf of your workers and pray you do well in the future.

[WILCO]

After all is said and done I'll be able to pay off all my bills and have a little left but not much.

I would consult with a wealth management advisor before going forward with anything.

Seek information on selling the business and building a portfolio to sustain yourself in the years to come.

[Echo]

+1 for having the workers take over. Talk to your banker and see what kind of loan they could arrange for the workers to by. They could incorporate, with shares adjusted according to agreement. And get a CPA involved for tax questions and avoidance.
In any case, kudos to you for thinking about your people.

[Rick Hodges]

I admire your concern for your crew. Let me make a point or two. If your crew is laid off and you shut down they get unemployment compensation, an insurance that you paid for, to ease such a transition. You as company owner get none. It was your capital, your risk, your work that built the company...with the help of your employees to be sure. So while they get unemployment while they look for work, you get zilch. It is not fair to you to liquidate and give to the employees more than you receive. Take this into account when you make up your mind. You also have a duty to take care of yourself and your family.

[Ehaver]

No offence ment, but you youngest sone seems to have the mentality of "modern Americans", take what you have coming and forget everyone else. I compleatly agree with you. If you are going under and you can give the guys that have been with you the longest a bit of a leg up to take care of their family, that is amazing.

Perhaps you might consider lowering the percentage that you are going to give them? I worked for a small buisness for a while, and they gave us christmas bonuses, 100 dollars for 1-2 years and more for the longer vets. Employees would complain about the small amount yada yada. I said it was a 100 that I would not have gotten any other way. People sometimes forget that a little is more than none.

Thought about selling the buisness?
I dont know as much as I should about Obamacare, but does it apply to youth workers or "contractors" ?

Good luck to you. You have earned every cent coming to you from SS, take it while you can.

[Swamp Man]

No offence ment, but you youngest sone seems to have the mentality of "modern Americans", take what you have coming and forget everyone else. I compleatly agree with you. If you are going under and you can give the guys that have been with you the longest a bit of a leg up to take care of their family, that is amazing.

Perhaps you might consider lowering the percentage that you are going to give them? I worked for a small buisness for a while, and they gave us christmas bonuses, 100 dollars for 1-2 years and more for the longer vets. Employees would complain about the small amount yada yada. I said it was a 100 that I would not have gotten any other way. People sometimes forget that a little is more than none.

Thought about selling the buisness?
I dont know as much as I should about Obamacare, but does it apply to youth workers or "contractors" ?

Good luck to you. You have earned every cent coming to you from SS, take it while you can.
That is the reason me and my son got into it he thinks like to many others in this country now days. The Obamacare is a bad deal for everyone I will either have to cover a vary high cost or cut the workers hours down to part time which the workers can't live off of.

[shdwlkr]

Swampman

Here is something I saw decades ago, a road construction contractor decided to pull the plug on the business. He had been in business for decades and like you there were a few that had been with him from the beginning. Long story short he sold the business for millions, yea it was that big of an operation. He had family that thought they were going to get a fat check, just because they were family and never worked a day in the business. Well he and his wife sat down and looked over the books as to how long the employees had been with them. There were 12 that had been there since the beginning some had died working for the company. He and his wife gave each of them 2 million tax free for staying there all through the years. Everyone else got 1% of their salaries for how ever long they had been with the company. Yes they got some big checks but they had to pay taxes on the money.
The family that never worked a day for the company each got $50,000 again taxes had to be paid.
The owner and his wife were left with enough to live on for the rest of their lives and bought a piece of ground to build a home and such on. Then they realized they didn't have enough to pay the workers to build it so they thought their dream was over.

Those former employees almost to a man came and built that home and whatever else the couple wanted as a thank you to them. They only got to live there a few years before they were gone and it was bought by one of the original workers as his and his wife's last home.

Sometimes doing the right thing does have it rewards.
I think you are a great employer and boss to worry about your workers. I know if it was me in your shoes I would do the same thing. Just couldn't not help as best I could especially now when times are really so hard on all.

Do what your heart tells you and forget what anyone other than your wife and you decide is best.

I live with arthritis not RA but it is still fun thing to deal with as we move into winter and colder damper weather.

[Swamp Man]

I admire your concern for your crew. Let me make a point or two. If your crew is laid off and you shut down they get unemployment compensation, an insurance that you paid for, to ease such a transition. You as company owner get none. It was your capital, your risk, your work that built the company...with the help of your employees to be sure. So while they get unemployment while they look for work, you get zilch. It is not fair to you to liquidate and give to the employees more than you receive. Take this into account when you make up your mind. You also have a duty to take care of yourself and your family.

Yes I understand they will get unemployment but I also know how hard it is to live off of unemployment been there myself years back. Luckily all my kids are grown and take care of themselves and my wife has a vary good job. At least I will be able to pay off my house the land it's on and my new truck even after looking out for the workers so I won't have any of those bills. Most of the workers have a families some with small kids so that's one part that really bothers me.

[OeldeWolf]

Swamp Man, I can sympathize with your situation. Helping your employees as best you can, is a great thing to be doing.

I have not been diagnosed as long as you have been, but I too am facing forced retirement. It sucks big time, as does the need for help and support from others. But the denizens here are great folk. Wonderful community and all. As someone said to me, do not let yourself get isolated, socialize here and elsewhere.

[unclogum bill]

Your the type of person we all would like to call friend and I see where you are coming from. But once the business is gone medical bills and life will eat Social Security fast. I'm all for loyalty , but your cards are dealt. If I married a good woman, who was going to be at my side ,to the end, well that's where my worries would be. Talk to the men , tell them you will give them great references, see if they have any ideas. Good men willing to work usually make out in this world.

[garym1a2]

I would wait and see if Obamacare will really kick in and how much it will cost. I expect most employers will pass this cost to their customers.

[Swamp Man]

I spent most of today contacting and talking to other co owners I'v had dealings with over the years trying to line up some jobs for the workers. I'm only contacting guys I know that treat their workers good because if I can get some of them jobs I want them to have a decent boss. I think this may be the best thing I can do that way their not left without a job even if they don't make near what they do now.

[gbrown]

I'm late getting in on this, but my sister ad BIL face the same delimna. They have a business, with not that many employees, but Obamacare will put them out of business. They are going thru the same thing you are and trying to do the same that you are. My thoughts and prayers are with you, as with my sister, and I hope it all works out. There is no telling what this thing is going to do, I just hope it does not send us into another recession.

[waynem34]

I dont know what I would do, If I was in your situation.You gave them a job thats alot right there.Steady work means alot to me.Having a great boss is also very nice.You may have to look at it a little like your youngest son does.Your employees have a good chance of getting new jobs.Unemployment?I would like to be more like you.I think you already know what your going to do.You made tremendous sacrifice building that business, without you there would have been no work there for anyone.The American Dream is to be your own boss and be wealthy.Lots of work running a business I'm sure and working too.So dont forget to reward yourself for being the people you are.Just my 2.God bless

[mroliver77]

One of my former bosses is my best friend now. After I was messed up and could not hold a job, my wife split leaving me with far less than nothing. Brian gave me a job understanding that I was ill and could not come in much of the time. He basically created a job for me. I am a good worker and talented at many things. I believe I made him money but was a special case and it was hard on him at times. I always went above and beyond for him. I studied and learned all I could to help his business. He got me through the toughest time in my life and helped me pay my own way.

I am indebted to him forever! Anything I have is his for the asking! More than that he knows that I have his six covered anytime anywhere. The same goes for me!
Others that worked for him were employees!
That is priceless!

[Fishman]

I would read Rick Hodges' advice again really carefully. Think of how you might feel ten years from now if your wife needs medicine to survive and you cant afford it.

You are a good man to think of others while facing this yourself.

Also you should get some legal/tax advice. You or your workers may incur taxes which will negate your generosity and may actually cost you even more money. Get an expert, it is that important.

[292]

Wow, tough times. I would like to work for a boss like you. Mine is good but I'm not sure he's that good. Some good advice has already been given and I think your mind is mostly made up. The only thing I can add is get the legal advice. It's a shame the American people don't know about your case and others.

[Blacksmith]

Go and talk to your business contacts i.e. banker, CPA, Lawyer, etc. and get an idea of what it would take for your workers to take it over. There may be some creative ways, some buy/share arrangement or you hold a note they pay you an income over time, some form of incorporation with different classes of stock, etc.

Then go talk with your employees and say I have to give up the business and this is what I have found out about ways of keeping it going. Give them some time to think about it and think up possible solutions themselves. Let them be a part of the decision making process. You never know maybe one of them knows someone who wants to buy it as is, possibly they have some relatives that will loan them money to buy you out, you never know. The biggest thing you can do for them is give them a chance to be part of the process.

[fivegunner]

Your a Good person , and theres alot of good advice given here. do what you want to do. be true to thy-self. God Bless you.

[Ehaver]

I have already said my piece, but the idea of having enough to provide long term really resonates to me... The 1% of pay per year of service is a pretty good idea. Like I have said, more than nothing is something.

[gray wolf]

There seems to be a lot of great advise in the post, read them over and see if anything makes sense to Ya. Take care of your family and do what ever you can for the good people you know and for those at times you don't know.
Your heart is in the right place, of that there is NO doubt. Only an honorable man would think like you have. Very respectful of you.
An old Zen saying goes something like this.
Before enlightenment chop wood and carry water.
After enlightenment chop wood and carry water.

I wish you the best

Sam

[41 mag fan]

Couldn't you make them co owners of the business with you holding the most shares so to speak....that way no obamacare?
Make a contract up with them where no other employees will be hired and go from there

[Houndog]

The absolute first thing you should do is talk to a VERY GOOD tax advisor!!!!! If you outright sell your business and liquidate the inventory and equipment Look for a tax liability of AT LEAST 35-40% on the sale PLUS recapture of any tax offsets for equipment listed for depreciation! If you will form a corporation with your employees becoming part owners and stock holders you can then sell them your "shares" over time and avoid the BIG tax hit all at one time and still have income from the business untill they finally buy all your shares. Basically your employees wind up buying the business, you avoid paying the gooberment a BIG bunch of taxes up front, and you collect money (dividends from the business and proceeds from the sale of your "shares" in the business) over a longer period of time at a MUCH lower tax rate.

BTW: Making the employees independent contractors and not employees takes care of your liabilities under obama care! Just be SURE to follow the rules associated with independent contractors to the letter or you will be in DEEP trouble!

[MrWolf]

I would also speak to an attorney/CPA to make sure you are covering all the bases. Taking care of your employees is admirable, but as others have stated you still have to look out for your future - they can still work and support themselves, you can't. You will be partially relying on SS and may need to look at long term care insurance to help in the future. I would be careful in switching your employees to contractors as you have established a precedent and may find yourself having to argue the point with the IRS. If you lose, there are significant tax implications. Good luck to you and your wife.

[Honorstick]

You are the type of employer that everyone should have, someone who values a person as more than just an thing that they can disgard as soon as they don't need it anymore. I ADMIRE YOU FOR THAT.

As for what to do, that can only be abswered by you and your wife but you are also entitled to your share, you earned it the same as your employees.

I will offer up a prayer for the God's guidance for your decision and may he grant you and your wife comfort in whatever your decision may be. God will be there for you if you allow it.

God bless you and yours.

Bill

[462]

Swampman,
Kudos for thinking of your employees. I worked for three small business that either failed or were sold, and got only a thank you from two of the owners and not even that from the last one.

As others have said, seek professional advise and think first of you and your wife's long term financial and health pictures.

I wish you all the best.

[Epd230]

Go and talk to your business contacts i.e. banker, CPA, Lawyer, etc. and get an idea of what it would take for your workers to take it over. There may be some creative ways, some buy/share arrangement or you hold a note they pay you an income over time, some form of incorporation with different classes of stock, etc.

Then go talk with your employees and say I have to give up the business and this is what I have found out about ways of keeping it going. Give them some time to think about it and think up possible solutions themselves. Let them be a part of the decision making process. You never know maybe one of them knows someone who wants to buy it as is, possibly they have some relatives that will loan them money to buy you out, you never know. The biggest thing you can do for them is give them a chance to be part of the process.

Offer them the opportunity first, then if no one can do it, proceed with the liquidation. You never know, one of those employees may have a contact that is waiting for a business opportunity.

[waksupi]

The best company I ever worked for, had a weekly meeting with everyone from the president on down in attendance, with equal voice. There would be problems come up that management didn't have an answer for, and sometimes the staff had suggestions for improvement of running of the company. All input was discussed and considered, and much implemented.
I would suggest having such a meeting, and lay everything on the line. They most likely already know your health concerns. Inform them of what the insurance requirements and costs will do to the company. Ask if they have any ideas how to make things work, so everyone stays employed. It may take a bit of time, but a workable solution may be found. If not, you have been out front with them, and they know the situation they face. Much better than them showing up some Monday morning, with no job, and no warning.

[Swamp Man]

I'm going to be talking with my CPA tomorrow before making choices then talk with the workers. I would like to let them take it over and buy me out if there is any way to do so. That way they all still have jobs and no one loses in the long run. If the workers want it and the CPA can work out a way to let them buy me out over time that would be great. This whole thing is still up in the air no choices have been set in stone so I'm in a wait and see state right now. Thanks guys

[Riverpigusmc]

I'm going to be talking with my CPA tomorrow before making choices then talk with the workers. I would like to let them take it over and buy me out if there is any way to do so. That way they all still have jobs and no one loses in the long run. If the workers want it and the CPA can work out a way to let them buy me out over time that would be great. This whole thing is still up in the air no choices have been set in stone so I'm in a wait and see state right now. Thanks guys

That sounds like best option to me. That way everyone knows whats going on, and all options ere explored, fair to everyone involved and lets you know ahead of time what you're in for. You're a good man for considering your employees future

[725]

You are never a fool for doing the right thing. It may be hard, but God Bless you. If it was Obama's decision, he'd cut those guys loose and not look back. Depends on the kind of man making the choices. This next is a little hard, also. It doesn't matter what one kid supports and the other objects to, it's not their business. They may have opinions, but that's as far as it goes. It's your affair, not theirs. I can tell from your message that you are the kind of guy this country needs if we are to continue. Prayers and best wishes coming your way.

[MtGun44]

I hope this works out. A job is a hard thing to find these days and putting down a business that
might somehow survive would be a great shame.

Best of luck with this process, I really hope it works out.

Bill

[jmort]

Don't know how many employees you have, but if it is around 20, you should investigate an ESOP and let them buy the business from you.

[starmac]

The only problem I see with letting them buy it out and holding the note, is right now you can sell out and come up with enough to clear your debts. I have seen this done several times and even with good intentions by all, the employees couldn't manage to hold it together and the long time owner wound up with nothing for years of work.
There should be a way to sell them all shares, but you still control it and draw your salary plus bonuses. If nothing can be worked out I would think a bonus to your long time employees would be a great thing. There is no such a thing as a job that can't go away at a moments notice, and your employees should know this.

[jmort]

^ This is good advice. ESOPs can be a very good thing. I know a guy that made a bundle doing it. I have also seen where, as noted, the employees could not make it work. Just a thought.

[Swamp Man]

The only problem I see with letting them buy it out and holding the note, is right now you can sell out and come up with enough to clear your debts. I have seen this done several times and even with good intentions by all, the employees couldn't manage to hold it together and the long time owner wound up with nothing for years of work.
There should be a way to sell them all shares, but you still control it and draw your salary plus bonuses. If nothing can be worked out I would think a bonus to your long time employees would be a great thing. There is no such a thing as a job that can't go away at a moments notice, and your employees should know this.
Oh I'm sure they all know jobs can be gone in a second. But it's not going to happen if I can help it in any way. I talked with my CPA today and he's running the numbers and going to give me an idea of what could or can't be done in a few days.

[starmac]

Hopefully he can come up with a workable solution that works out for you and your employees.
It is a shame that you can't just appoint a manager, and you keep the final say, but it sounds as if ob care is restricting this on many small businesses.

[Swamp Man]

Hopefully he can come up with a workable solution that works out for you and your employees.
It is a shame that you can't just appoint a manager, and you keep the final say, but it sounds as if ob care is restricting this on many small businesses.
Yes Ocare is going to kill a lot of small businesses unless they get out before it's to late. That's why I'm hoping to get everything locked down in writing before it's to late to save what I'v worked for.

[Swamp Man]

Well guys I now know what I'll be doing with the business things are in the works now. Last week was a long hard week for me it's really put a strain on my mind. This week is going to be another long week but I have faced what must be done and have accepted it. Hopefully I can get it all worked out and in writing before the end of the month. I'm vary happy to say everyone will still have a job but me and that was my choice. I'll be in limbo for a while I'm thinking I may open a online business I can run by myself so I can keep it small and low risk.

[MtGun44]

Where in FL are you? I used to hang around in the Palatka to Gainesville area many years ago.

Bill

[popper]

Look into what houndog says. Dad had the same problem with his company, different situation. Did way more than needed for the employees but it didn't make much difference. They either find work or not, that is their responsibility. They stuck with you cause you were a good employer and paid right, else they would have gone elsewhere.

[Swamp Man]

Where in FL are you? I used to hang around in the Palatka to Gainesville area many years ago.

Bill
I'm out on the other side of Newberry near the Gilchrist County line. I may move back to my land near Archer after finalizing everything with the business. My wife has always liked the land in Archer better then this place. Gainesville is my home town and I often go out to the Palatka area to fish the St.Johns and Rodmans Dam.

[MtGun44]

I know all those places, haven't been to Newberry or Archer in years, but I get to Gainesville, Interlachen
and Palatka about once a year or more often. Still nice country altho the lakes are sure down. Lots of
big bass in Rodman.

You are doing a good thing in working to help your employees. I hope it all works and
is good for you, too.

Bill

[Lead Fred]

Find out what the nobamacare fine will be and divvy it amongst you and the workers, and drive on.

[Swamp Man]

Wow I just got the last of the papers signed a few minutes after 11:00 pm tonight. What I done was went ahead and bought the leased land at the buy out price we had in righting.Then sold the land as part of the business instead of turning over the lease. That proved to be the key to coming out way ahead in this deal by turning the land as part of the business. I will come out with twice the amount I thought after the taxes are covered and everyone still has a job. I saved all their jobs so instead of giving them all large bonuses I'm going to give my 3 longest standing workers a little bonus and then have a large party for everyone. I'm going to have it catered at my home chicken,burgers,rib eyes,T-bones and fixings and plenty of beer for them. Just let them have one hell of a good time on me to let them know I'm thankful for all their years of hard work.

Monday I start a whole new life of not having a job in 27 years. I'm not sure what I'll do because I'll be on the outside of the fence watching the farm carry on without me. I can see the farm from my yard it's right on the other side of my fence. I'm sure it's going to be a hard thing to take for a while kind of bitter sweet but it was the best thing I could do for everyone involved.

[Swamp Man]

I know all those places, haven't been to Newberry or Archer in years, but I get to Gainesville, Interlachen
and Palatka about once a year or more often. Still nice country altho the lakes are sure down. Lots of
big bass in Rodman.

You are doing a good thing in working to help your employees. I hope it all works and
is good for you, too.

BillYeah some of our lakes have been in real bad shape for a few years but they will come back in due time. Rodman has some monster channel cats also and bluegills to die for.

Everything worked out good for me with the sell much better then I thought it would. Thanks.

[jmort]

Well it sounds like you done right by all concerned. Enjoy what you have and don't look back (or over the fence).

[Swamp Man]

Well it sounds like you done right by all concerned. Enjoy what you have and don't look back (or over the fence). Not looking back will be no problem but that fence is right there in my face. I'm just going to try to find things to keep me busy for a while and not spend much time in the yard for a week or so.