Small first band

[Mark]

Why is the first driving band of the Ray Thompson design 429244 smaller than the next two? Are other boolits in other calibers designed this way? When people quote the Elmer designs by saying something to the effect of "...3 equal length driving bands..." does that mean 3 equal diameter driving bands as well?
Thanks for the input,
Mark

[fourarmed]

Elmer always insisted that a full-diameter front band was necessary to his designs.

[MtGun44]

Elmer wanted the long and full diameter driving band outside the
case. In my opinion (I don't think I have seen Elmer put this in
writing, but he may have) this is to center the bullet in the tapered
section of the chamber ahead of the case diameter portion, or
even reach just into the throat portion so the bullet is well centered
either just outside the throat or just into the throat for best
accuracy.
Additionally, Elmer did state that the full diameter and relatively
large first driving band was to get the bullet to solidly engage the
rifling without slipping and skidding as it entered the barrel.

I know tons of folks that have had just the opposite results but I
have NEVER gotten one single group from a Thompson 429244 or
430244 or 429215 that was worth a darn, and I have several
molds of each design and have tried a bunch in many different
.44s - Anaconda, several Mtn Gun 629s, a 6" ported 629, a
Super BH and two carbines. I have given up on these bullets.
A lot of better men than me have reported excellent results, but
I can't find any of it.

When I use most of my many 429421 molds or clones like the
great RCBS 429-250 K I almost always get good to excellent
results. Can't explain it, but there it is.

Bill

[Bass Ackward]

Why is the first driving band of the Ray Thompson design 429244 smaller than the next two?

Are other boolits in other calibers designed this way?

When people quote the Elmer designs by saying something to the effect of "...3 equal length driving bands..." does that mean 3 equal diameter driving bands as well?
Thanks for the input,
Mark


Mark,

Elmer had his balance point established with 3 equal width and diameter bands. This is true. Elmer's long nose already had the balance point way back toward the base, so he needed the width to grip the rifling. But not all semi wadcutters should be called or associated with Elmer Keith. Others try to maintain balance by going to a wider base band, which works if you are forced to shorten the nose.

Ray Thompson cut the front band down to compensate for the balance point moving forward when you cut lead off the back for a GC which is lighter. It's really hard to design a light for caliber GC design without going to a semi wadcutter or a trunicated cone. That is to remove weight off the nose and set the balance point back where it is easier to stabilize at lower velocity. The narrower bands were to size and engrave easier (keep pressure off the base) plus get lube up where it would prevent galling better. He meant for a GC design to be for higher velocity handgun use.

These designs yields characteristics. One trait is not any better than something else only different and requiring different load parameters or techniques to work. If I had to pick two characteristics of both, that are only trends mind you, cause there are no rules to cast: Elmer's designs shoot when your sizing is closer to bore and not shooting real hard bullets. Especially when you want a PB design for slower velocity use. Ray's designs shoot better hard, sized to fill the throat, and pushed towards the top end.

Now like I said, you will always find exceptions, ...............

[454PB]

MTGun44, your experience surprises me. My first two moulds for .44 were the 244 & 215. Both shoot very well in every .44 magnum I own or have owned, but as Bass said, I drive them hard. When I owned a .444 Marlin many years ago, the 429244 was a real tack driver at 2200 fps.

[Mark]

Thanks for the replies and insight.
Bill, I recall you writting that comment before and that sounds odd to me as well. My 629 shoots the 429244 with or without a gas check just as good as 429244 even a low velocity. I have been meaning to try the 429244 in my Blackhawk but I just have not because the cast diameter is .431 and the Blackhawk likes .432+. I am going to try them and I will report back.
Mark