Tipping Bullets

[joeb33050]

Cast bullets sometimes make non-round or oblong holes in targets; these type holes are signs that the bullets are "tipping", going through the paper while yawing.
I was told years ago that, and still see examples of, bullets that are tipping slightly at 100 or 200 yards that shoot small groups.
However, the contrary evidence that I've seen suggests that accurate tipping bullets, at least at short range up to 200 yards, are the exception.
And, I'm starting to think that if, in searching for an accurate load in a given gun, we see bullets tipping; then it is time for either more velocity or a shorter bullet.
Those oblong holes in the target are a sign that something is amiss.
joe brennan

[44man]

If your twist is too slow combined with a long, heavy boolit that can't be shot as fast as a jacketed bullet so the spin rate will stabilize it, it will yaw.
The velocity, boolit length and twist rate must work together. This is my big gripe with the Marlin .44 with the 1 in 38 twist. Marlin says over spinning the boolit is no good but I have never lost accuracy with over stabilization. We used to watch .44 bullets shot from S&W model 29's. A 240 gr bullet would rotate around the flight path like a corkscrew but would shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yd's. After the bullet slowed at long range, it would run truer. Going to a 265 or 300 gr would stop the rotation. We never seen this with a Ruger but the 1 in 20 of the Ruger will still shoot very heavy boolits because the velocity is high enough. Not so the Marlin.
I had the same with a .220 Swift where it was not possible to shoot under 1" at 100 yd's but I was able to put 5 shots in 1/4" at 350 yd's.
I had one strange thing with a TC 30-30 where I could hit a nickel at 100 yd's as long as the gas check was on the boolit. If I left it off, all boolits would go through the 50 yd target sideways. Loss of the drive length was the cause. Was this over spun? I don't know! Stuff just gets real strange and I just know you have to find what each gun likes. :confused:

[fourarmed]

Some time back there was a discussion on here about corkscrewing bullets. I have seen this in silhouette shooting, where it is very common for the spotter to be able to watch the bullet's trajectory all the way to the target. I have heard silhouette shooters complain that their windage changes at the different distances, and I strongly believe that this is the reason.

One possible reason for tipping or keyholing that is not discussed too much is too soft an alloy. If the bullet slumps under pressure, it will emerge from the bore off-axis.

[Ricochet]

That slumping is shape dependent. if there's a long subcaliber bore rider that's a loose fit in the bore, or a spitzer nose, it can slump badly. If the bullet body's nearly all cylindrical and a close fit in the throat and bore, there's nowhere for it to go to slump and bend. That's why bullets like the Soup Can do so well. In pistols, Keith type bullets have noses that can really slug up and distort badly. A short truncated cone nose won't change shape much even if it's soft.

[44man]

I have always considered nose shape and diameter very important with a Keith boolit. I firmly believe most do not match the forcing cone and when the little shoulder hits, the boolit can tip. Even super hard ones that won't slump much are not as accurate as the truncated cone. Shot slow, the Keith works better. If the boolit is a little small for the throats there is no way it will stay straight when it hits the forcing cone. This is where the guidance to the bore counts.
I have shot many, many Keith type boolits in all of my revolvers for 52 years and not a single one can match the LBT style for extreme accuracy. Yes, they shoot good enough for most purposes and the old 429421 is still the best for the .44 and the 358156 for the .357. However none of the .45 and .475 Keith boolits have given me more then average groups. Nose slump? I don't know but recovered boolits don't show it. Some also showed perfectly aligned rifling marks, yet did not group as well as I wanted.
I still think the relationship between the boolit and forcing cone is important as is the start through the throats.
The rate of twist is more important in the revolver then most will admit too. In the rifle or single shot pistol everything still applies and a poor fit or poor design of the boolit for the gun can't be made to shoot. Neither can one that doesn't match the twist.
It seems to me a lot of guys talk about lube grooves, amount of lube, gas checks, hardness and a thousand other things when the boolit just does not fit the gun, whether size, length, weight, velocity or a match to the twist at the velocity shot.
Why do cast boolit shooters ignore twist??? :confused:

[felix]

They ignore twist because they want to buy the gun already made. In accounting terms, they figure that is a "fixed" cost. We all know today that there are barrel makers that can do just about anything with steel, which can include EDM chambering for a specific boolit. But, that definitely be a "variable" cost introduced into the equation. Getting an action redone should also be considered a variable cost instead of treating it as a fixed cost. Most folks will trade out stocks without hesitation when accuracy is part of the end requirements. ... felix

[Bret4207]

It seems to me a lot of guys talk about lube grooves, amount of lube, gas checks, hardness and a thousand other things when the boolit just does not fit the gun, whether size, length, weight, velocity or a match to the twist at the velocity shot.
Why do cast boolit shooters ignore twist??? :confused:

I don't think we ignore twist, we just try to work with what we have. Most guys will never make a chamber cast, slug a throat or buy a custom mould. You do with what you have and try for the best. And, sometimes, we get a combo that defies logic and "the rules" and shoots good despite all the issues we should have. It's also the reason we all have numerous moulds for the same caliber- trying to find a workable combination.

[4570guy]

Bullets can indeed corkscrew -- especially at handgun velocities/sizes. This weblink is one of the best I've found describing the physics of a bullets flight. Some shooters may be surprised at what they learn here:

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/index.htm

[44man]

Felix and Bret, you are so right. I am guilty of that because I want a certain gun but the problems can usually be worked out by finding the right boolit. I can't afford custom barrels so I am stuck with what I buy. Thankfully, most are right and if I would have done more research, I would not have bought the Marlin .44, I would have bought the .41. Why they think a 1 in 20 is correct for the .41 but is wrong for the .44 makes my head spin.
My best luck with twist in the revolvers has been with the BFR revolvers for the big bores. Ruger also is close for most calibers (Not all.) but some makers make the twist too slow and only short boolits reach maximum accuracy.
But when I say they ignore twist, it is not when they buy the gun but when they choose a boolit! [smilie=1: Also what the gun was bought for, cowboy action, plinking or higher velocity, heavy boolit hunting loads. Too many makers cater to the cowboy crowd so they make a lot of money. Look at the wonderful, strong Vaquero that is now a toy to satisfy only that crowd. To be right, both versions should be made. Marlin should also offer two twist rates in the .44 carbine. Double the market! Why don't they? Because the cowboy crowd makes more noise then the hunting crowd. One complaint gets lip service. 1000 complaints gets a gun change.
If you look at, say Lyman muzzle loaders, they offer different twist rates for either boolits or round balls. Then look at the inline muzzle loaders, all have only fast twists when I want to shoot a patched round ball. That means I will never buy an inline. I hate sabots and false black powder. Why don't they offer both?

[Bass Ackward]

However, the contrary evidence that I've seen suggests that accurate tipping bullets, at least at short range up to 200 yards, are the exception.
And, I'm starting to think that if, in searching for an accurate load in a given gun, we see bullets tipping; then it is time for either more velocity or a shorter bullet.
Those oblong holes in the target are a sign that something is amiss.
joe brennan


Joe,

You are probably correct, but it is not necessarily true. I remember a CBA member that tried to build a 300 Win mag for some long range competition with a guy shooting a 303 British I believe. (He was a gunsmith in Michigan and sold bullet lube.)

He would have whopped this guy easily at almost any range, but he lost at I think it was 1300 meters, where the 303 British was designed to be the most accurate rifle in the world. That means accuracy can improve or be the best at a certain range based on load factors and twist rate.

I once had a handgun load that shot 4" groups at 200 yards with nice round holes. Strange thing was that was about the same as it would group at 25 yards with elliptical holes and 2" less than it would group at 100. When a bullet spins, it also causes a rotation based upon twist rate and direction of twist. Air blowing from one direction can raise or lower a bullet based upon rotation direction. Change from a right hand twist to a left and the exact opposite occurs. Just like planets, the earth is elliptically rotating around the sun while it is spinning consistently. That's why the guy lost above.

It's usually a longer range phenom, but my handgun load above proves there are exceptions.

[oneokie]

This is from an e-mail I received from a man with whom I was discussing accuracy issues.
First time I ever heard of such.

I did an experiment years ago by taking about 30 paper targets spaced out from 25 to 100 yards (used a laser).. I sighted in a 3006 at 100 yards and shot the bull at 25 yards (took some effort to set up... but it worked) The bullets path was an obvious spiral The only two targets with hits in the bull were the 25 and 100 yard targets! BUT...all followup shots printed groups proportionate to the 100 yard group but again in a spiral pattern..! The higher the velocity the tighter the spiral. We tend to think one dimensional (like the book picture of the arching bullet path in most reloading manuals)...but not so..!

[hydraulic]

44 Man: wouldn't your 5 shot 1/4" 350 yard group be a world accuracy record, or is this sort of accuracy more common than I had supposed?

[trk]

This is from an e-mail I received from a man with whom I was discussing accuracy issues.
First time I ever heard of such.

I did an experiment years ago by taking about 30 paper targets spaced out from 25 to 100 yards (used a laser).. I sighted in a 3006 at 100 yards and shot the bull at 25 yards (took some effort to set up... but it worked) The bullets path was an obvious spiral The only two targets with hits in the bull were the 25 and 100 yard targets! BUT...all followup shots printed groups proportionate to the 100 yard group but again in a spiral pattern..! The higher the velocity the tighter the spiral. We tend to think one dimensional (like the book picture of the arching bullet path in most reloading manuals)...but not so..!

EXCELLENT!
This is a VERIFICATION of what Dr Mann wrote in the 1920's in his book: The Bullet's Flight.

[44man]

Hydraulic, most likely would have been but I was a varmint shooter and used to sight the rifle at 350 yd's. I only shot two, 5 shot groups like that but most others were still small. It was a pre 64 model 70 with a 6X24 Balvar scope. The scope was as big as the rifle, slid in rings and the adjustments were in the rear ring. I bedded and floated the rifle. I used the 60 gr Hornady but don't remember the powder, been a long time. I head shot chucks to just beyond 600 yd's with that thing. My best shot was a crow out of the top of a tree at 410 yd's. I knew the exact drop, taped the scope adjustment to the scope and would just dial the setting. A lot of times if I seen a chuck at 200 yd's or so, I would walk the other direction another 200 before shooting.
I also had a Remington .222 that shot quite a few 1/2" groups at 250 yd's. I also had a Weatherby Mark 5 .300 that I worked over. It would never shoot worse then 1/2" at 100 yd's. I used the Hornady 150 gr and 88 gr's of surplus 4831. I shot a chuck in the head at 550 yd's from a sitting position with it. Hee, what a varmint gun! :mrgreen:
I have had many newer rifles over the years but none have come close to those old guns.
By the way, I take exactly a 3 foot pace and paced so many of the fields that I knew how far everything was. In 100 yd's I would be less then a foot off when measured. No such thing as a laser range finder back then. I also paced after every shot. I walked a million miles!
Now you know why I shoot revolvers to 500 meters and HATE 25 yd's. [smilie=1:

[waksupi]

Helps to have a tight shooting keyboard.

[joeb33050]

And I thought it was easy! I just got over-amazed at the responses!!
Let me ask the question in a simpler way.
If you get holes showing the bullet is tipping, at up-to-200 yards, and if the groups are not good; then isn't it reasonable to increase the powder charge/velocity or substitute a shorter bullet while searching for accuracy?
Isn't the oblong hole a sign?
joe brennan

[44man]

Joe, go to the BPCR site and do a search. There is a wealth of info about tipping boolits and trying for round holes at long range.
Waksupi doesn't believe me and thats fine, I am not telling stories and had too many witnesses. It is also the truth that I have never had a newer gun that was as capable. My 1919 Swede is the only rifle I have left, it shot so good I customized it with a hunk of cherry out of my woods. The bore is pitted so I don't shoot cast. I got it in trade for a little airbrush compressor. In military dress with open sights, it shot 8" high at 100 yd's so I added 1/8" to the front site and the first shot was almost a foot low so I kept filing it and adjusting windage until I hit the black spot. Then filed a tad more and shot three to confirm it.
Yes, those three are in .432" with open sights at 100 yd's. I then shot two shots at the coke can, 100 yd's offhand, no rest, no sling. That rifle deserved custom work. I have a total of $45 in it, not counting the scope. It continues to shoot below 1/2" with the 129 and 140 gr Hornady's. Both also impact the same place.
Everyone here thinks I shoot the bull, it's OK, doesn't bother me. Strange that everyone I know only brings their guns to me to work on, accurize or to build them custom stocks.

[Bass Ackward]

And I thought it was easy! I just got over-amazed at the responses!!
Let me ask the question in a simpler way.
If you get holes showing the bullet is tipping, at up-to-200 yards, and if the groups are not good; then isn't it reasonable to increase the powder charge/velocity or substitute a shorter bullet while searching for accuracy?
Isn't the oblong hole a sign?
joe brennan



The simple answer is yes. A gambler would go with the odds and favor the answer, .... yes.

One more thing that is possible with cast is to go to a smaller meplat or a round nose. These and along with a bullet with weight or center of balance toward the rear is easier to stabilize and goes to sleep faster.

But then I am sure there are more possibilities as well that just aren't coming to mind at this time.

[beagle]

Joe...right on! That's been my experience. I had a Marlin .25/20 that would shoot less than one inch groups at 100 yards...occasionally if everything I did was right with a 91 grain bullet (257312 clone). This was with the Marlin factory 1-14 twist. Holes were slightly elongated in the target.

I rebarrelled with a 1-12 twist and extended the magazine to a full magazine configuration. Now, it handles the heavier bullets.

So, I agree.....elongated holes. The fix is higher velocity or a shorter bullet or rebarrel to a faster twist. In the case of the .25/20, I wanted a 80+ grain bullet and was already pushing the bullets I was shooting to 1810 FPS so a rebarrel was the only option./beagle

[shooting on a shoestring]

And another factor...Chambers and bores swell under pressure. I remember in my machinist days turning the outside diameters of shafts to fit inside diameters of ball bearings. Usually figured about a 1/2 thousandths interference fit. If the inside of the ball bearing race was say 0.7500, then the outside diameter of the shaft would be turned to 0.7505, and the two would press together only a couple of tons of pressure on the hydraulic press. The hardened steel race would end up doing the stretching, and the the balls inside it would be crowded by that 1/2 thousandth. One can set up a ball bearing to fail by making the interference fit too tight and crowding the balls too much, they burn out quick.

So if my rifle chamber, or revolver chamber, goes from ambient pressure to say 30,000 psi (15 tons per square inch), that steel chamber is definitely going to expand. How much? I'd love to know. I'll guess by several thousandths, maybe in the range of .005". And if the chamber or bore behind the boolit expands its diameter by 0.005", or whatever, there should be some distortion of the barrel diameter in front of the boolit as well. The distortion would be funnel shaped, ramping from the maxium distortion behind the boolit to zero distortion somewhere further forward than the boolit base. I think this might be more of a reason to have revolver boolits larger than the throats, than believing the boolits get sized down as the pass through the throats. On revolvers, where the chamber throat is not connected to the forcing cone, the expansion of the chamber would not be "communicated" to the forcing cone, but the distortion could be added to the "offcenteredness" between the axis of each, allowing considerable boolit tipping or tripping going into the forcing cone.

Hmm. Another "fixed cost".

[fourarmed]

SOAS, your question intrigued me, so I did some calculations. Assuming a pressure of 30,000 psi, and a half-inch hole surrounded by steel having Young's modulus of 2e11 N/sq. m, I get an expansion of the hole diameter of about 0.0002". That is assuming there is enough steel that the elastic limit is not exceeded (kaboom!).

[Ricochet]

That is assuming there is enough steel that the elastic limit is not exceeded (kaboom!).

Dontcha just HATE it when that happens?

[leftiye]

Oneokie,
This jibes with experiences I had with a .375 H&H Ack. improved. Would shoot 1" at 200 yds, but groups at 100 yds were larger. Also jibes with various comments I've read about BPCR boolits "going to sleep" after 200(?) yards, or settling down.

I don't think the whole thang here is a question of sufficient spin (though you may not see the "tilting" in your boolit holes with the "spiral Path" situation") to stabilize the boolit. Apparently not all boolits come out of the barrel straight on and not yawing even in the best of situations. Even with ample spin. Actually this may even be too much spin rate. It's almost amazing that a boolit can "settle down" if not perfectly shot.

[oneokie]

Here is some more fodder for this discussion.

Shot some test loads today. 38-55 Win, cast boolits, 18 twist. With slower velocity, the POI walks clockwise around the bull. Higher velicity the POI moves ccw. This is at 30 yds. Definitely a spiral.

Read an anology somewhere that compared the boolits flight path to the spiral path of a football. Velocity and rate of spin determined the size of the spiral.

An ex Marine Captain told me of his experience with the 308-7.62x51 in the M-14 in SE Asia.
Impacts at less than 80 yds would remove chunks of meat. (unstable bullet) Beyond 100 yds, through and through wound. Defnitely indication that there is some instability when the projectile leaves the muzzle.

Too many variables to consider for making a generalized statement as to when a projectile becomes stable in flight.

[Ricochet]

An ex Marine Captain told me of his experience with the 308-7.62x51 in the M-14 in SE Asia.
Impacts at less than 80 yds would remove chunks of meat. (unstable bullet) Beyond 100 yds, through and through wound. Defnitely indication that there is some instability when the projectile leaves the muzzle.
Gen. Hatcher documented that effect with the Cal. .30 M2 round decades ago in his Notebook. Less penetration up close because the bullets are wobbling and hitting in yaw, whereas they penetrate more deeply after they've gone far enough to stabilize.

[waksupi]

Old news. Shooters have known for decades it takes awhile for a bullet to "go to sleep".

[joeb33050]

From another forum, same topic:
Joe, I agree that this is the end result, but have another
explaination. If the bullet is not seated centered in the bore, when
fired the bullet doesn't self center. The bullet startes forward in the
same orientation as when loaded in the case. So that the center of form
(shape)is not equal to the center of mass. The bullet yaws, but it is
not related to twist or bullet speed. Ric

I think that what Mann thought was that inaccuracy was caused by two kinds of bullet ?rotation?. One was the movement of the bullet, viewed from the muzzle, in a circle, rotating around a line from the bore. The other was the rotation of the bullet base (and nose) so that from the muzzle the base would be seen to rotate about the center line of the bullet. This second would result in oblong holes in the target.
While this explanation is of interest, if I got it right, and reading Mann is no walk in the park, I still think that the only options are to go faster or shoot a shorter bullet. Changing barrels to a faster twist makes no sense here-why would one change barrels unless in love with the load giving oblong holes?
joe b.

[waksupi]

I agree bullets corkscrew, and settle in after a few hundred yards. My BS meter pegged out on the quarter inch at 350 yards. You need to shoot more than one bullet to make a group.

[fatnhappy]

I agree bullets corkscrew, and settle in after a few hundred yards. My BS meter pegged out on the quarter inch at 350 yards. You need to shoot more than one bullet to make a group.


Two through the same hole is called coincidence

[Scrounger]

I agree bullets corkscrew, and settle in after a few hundred yards. My BS meter pegged out on the quarter inch at 350 yards. You need to shoot more than one bullet to make a group.

Yeah, for a minute there I thought StarMetal was back...

[44man]

How about pegging out on FIVE shots? Can't happen? Never could be done? What have you ever done that nobody believes?

[45nut]

I made a called shot with a Ruger Govt 22 lr 10"er at over 100 yards at a beer bottle cap sitting on a tree branch,, twice in a row,, iron sights. Wild but true, you never know til you try.

[45 2.1]

Most of the people here think it can't be done if they are the ones who can't do it.

[45 2.1]

I think that what Mann thought was that inaccuracy was caused by two kinds of bullet ?rotation?. One was the movement of the bullet, viewed from the muzzle, in a circle, rotating around a line from the bore. The other was the rotation of the bullet base (and nose) so that from the muzzle the base would be seen to rotate about the center line of the bullet. This second would result in oblong holes in the target.
While this explanation is of interest, if I got it right, and reading Mann is no walk in the park, I still think that the only options are to go faster or shoot a shorter bullet. Changing barrels to a faster twist makes no sense here-why would one change barrels unless in love with the load giving oblong holes?
joe b.

Manns observations were of boolits where the center of gravity and the center of rotation weren't the same. Therefore the boolit yawed or wobbled out of the barrel. Rotation slowed enough where it did finally stabilize. The most common cause of this is a miss-aligned too small of a boolit. If you try a boolit in progressively larger nose and body diameters up to the size that fits the rifles neck, throat and bore, you will see this.

[rugerman1]

Most of the people here think it can't be done if they are the ones who can't do it.

Here?What makes castboolits posters more cynical than yer average Charmin© using bear?

[Bret4207]

Manns observations were of boolits where the center of gravity and the center of rotation weren't the same. Therefore the boolit yawed or wobbled out of the barrel. Rotation slowed enough where it did finally stabilize. The most common cause of this is a miss-aligned too small of a boolit. If you try a boolit in progressively larger nose and body diameters up to the size that fits the rifles neck, throat and bore, you will see this.

Bob has put exactly my thoughts, from the same source, in much clearer terms than I could. Another example would be an arrow. Take a simple field head and grind a flat on one side. An unaltered head will, or may, fly without a visible corkscrew effect. The out of balance one will have a more pronounced corkscrew. Of course this is easier to see with old and slow bows like mine. Even a well balanced arrow will corkscrew a bit in flight. Changing the twist/speed (fletching/bow) won't always fix it, often makes it worse. Yet that arrow that corkscrews visibly at 15 feet may settle down at 40 or 50 yards and stay in a nice group. Wish I could still shoot like that!

Mann covered this, so did Ackley and Hatcher. It's getting put into laymans terms and relating it to our particular issues that becomes difficult at times. Certainly converting some of Manns thoughts, or Harry Popes, into concise terms is difficult for me.

[waksupi]

I am amused at those, who shoot better groups, than what our mechanical bench rest shoots.

[9.3X62AL]

The only rifle bullets I've shot or watched being shot in the significant numbers required to make claims or inferences about yaw or "going to sleep" were the many hundreds of 308 rounds I and others fired through my agency's Ruger 77V (tang-safety series) and later Rem 700V rifles. The early years of issuance were complicated by idiots in admin who first bought 150 grain Win Power Point ammo, which shot pretty well from most of the rifles (10 total). This ammo showed similar quirks to the 30-06 M2 round, staying right around 1-1/8" to 1-1/4" at 100 yards, then producing 1.75" to 2.00" groups at 200 yards. Not exactly target grade results, but the rifles were box-stock with the infamous Ruger "6 dollar barrels"--actions unbedded--using deer hunting ammo.

The wonks in charge of ammo procurement often changed bullet weights and ammo makers, based on whatever was cheap when the ammo supply got low. The second year of the rifle program, we were issued 180 grain round-nose ammo. For precise target-grade venues. We tried to gently point out that changing ammo makers and bullet weights REALLY complicated the "booking" of the rifles, and the pompous ass that commanded the training bureau ordered that the issued ammo would be used regardless of its performance, and until it was consumed. We squirrelled away the Power Point 150's, and many of us had M1A's that could assist with disposal of the 180 RN's. This process took another year, and we got by. Thankfully, the pompous jerk was thoughtful enough to get forced into retirement via an EEOC bit he pulled.

We continued with the 150 PP's for a few years longer, then made the varsity team move to the Federal 168 Matchking loads about 1987--same year we went to autopistols. It's amazing what can occur in firearms venues when a former Marine becomes sheriff. These remain the issue 308 round to this day, and the Rugers got changed out to Remingtons a few years later. What did not change markedly was the phenomenon of "bullets going to sleep" between 100 and 200 yards. The ammo was a lot better, then the rifles got better, but the anomaly stayed put. The performance improved--100 yard 5-shot groups seldom exceeded 7/8". At 200 yards, 1.25"-1.50" groups were the norm. Not as pronounced as the 150 PP effect, but still there.

[45 2.1]

Here?What makes castboolits posters more cynical than yer average Charmin© using bear?

See post #37 for an example of this.

[Ricochet]

How about pegging out on FIVE shots? Can't happen? Never could be done? What have you ever done that nobody believes?
A few years ago my local guitar shop set up a well worn (but playable) Yamaha dreadnought guitar on a stand, put a piece of tape on the floor about 15' away, and offered a new Ibanez acoustic guitar to anyone who could, without practicing, toss a penny through the soundhole (which had the strings in front of it, of course.) I didn't win that. But after another guy did, I went back for some practice and got a few to go in. The manager said I could have the old Yamaha if I got three in in a row, and the next three plonked in slick as you please! I got the old Yamaha (badly dented and nicked around the soundhole from folks who tried to "rifle 'em in" like a fastball), with a couple of bucks worth of pennies still in it!

[hydraulic]

waksupi: I think you and I are the only occupants in the boat.

[waksupi]

waksupi: I think you and I are the only occupants in the boat.

I'll stay in the boat. Trust, but verify. You can post anything on the internet.