Win mod 12 vs Rem 870

[carpetman]

Prior to 1963 the Rem 870 and the Win mod 12 sold for about the same price. No doubt about this,it cost more to make the Mod 12 than the 870. The mod 12 used machined parts where the 870 was using stamped parts. Despite this,they were priced about the same and were fairly equal in sales. Had Winchester increased their price it would have ruined them(BTW same same with the Win mod 70 and the Rem 700). So Win cheapened their product and moved production to Japan. In my books the 870 does not compare with the Mod 12------but what do I know?,the 870 is probably most popular pump shotgun ever. How do you compare them?

[KCSO]

As range instructor and armourer I have used both for about the last 30 years. I like the solid feel of the M12 but have had little trouble with the 870 other than an occasional gun that was prone to double feed. This was mostly in the late 70's early 80's. We took all our riot guns and milled a slot in the lifter so we could use a key to slide the misfed round back into the mag tube if necessary and replaced all the ctg releases and never had another problem. The bottom line is that a used 870 is 179.95 Dealer cost and a M12 is twice that. For a hunting gun and a keeper that will be taken care of M12 for a beater or a riot gun 870.

I guess I am really wierd as my favorite pump is the old Remington 31. I have a 16 ga that is still like new, made in 1949. This is the design that Mossberg aluminized and cheepened up to make the 500. In Steel with milled parts I think it is the full equal of the M12.

[9.3X62AL]

Both the Winchester Model 12 and the Ithaca Model 37 are crafted--the Rem 870 is stamped and assembled. I own examples of all 3 makes, and a couple of the Winchester 1200's as well. All do fine work in the hunting fields, and although it borders on sacrilege to do so at my shooting range--I even use them to bust clay birds.

The Remington 870's principal advantage over all the others is its simplicity and its ability to be serviced in the field by armorers with just a modicum of training. This attribute endeared them to police departments right from the beginning of their production--Model 12's and 37's require more hand-fitting for critical parts than does the 870. Same thing happened to Model 12's that happened to Colt V-spring revolvers.......someone built a simpler, more easily maintained platform--snagged police purchasing contracts--and the rest is history. Incidentally, the lock-up of the Win 1200's has to be the strongest of about any slide-action shotgun action I've seen--steel on steel within an aluminum receiver. It's not like a shotshell runs heavy pressure, but that rotating bolt is quite stalwart.

[StarMetal]

The Rem 870 is a fine shotgun, but my pick is the Browning BPS or the Ithaca, which you all know don't have the right side ejection port. I think for hunting they stay cleaner from weed debri, seeds, and dust. I don't think that they are any harder to disassemble then an 870.

Once in a gun shop of a friend in Ohio a fellow come in and bought one of the several 870 riot shotguns he had for sale gotten from the local Federal prison not too far down the road. They were like brand new. The fellow bought one and took it outside to shoot it and comes back in and says it doesn't fire. My friend unloaded, made sure the chamber was clear and dry snapped it. Nothing!!! So he pulled the trigger assembly out and lo and behold it was jammed because of clothing lint. Well blew it out and pick out some, put her back together and it worked fine. We all went "Huh!". This isn't a reflection on any problem, just a story. The 870 is a great shotgun.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

Joe--

The 870 is probably the most deputy-proof implement my agency issues to the troops. Just incredibly rugged.....about like a slide action AK-47.

I do get poetic about the Ithaca 37's. The most recent acquisition is a 20 gauge, 98% condition complete with Ray-Bar front sight. It is fast becoming my favorite dove and quail gun--which takes some doing, given my long-term affair with the Rem 870 x 28 gauge.

Heaven......a Model 12 x 28 gauge. Absent a lottery win, THAT won't happen!

[onceabull]

C-Man,and gents: Staying with Deputy Al in the shotgun game is TOUGH. only had my 870 x 28 G.one season and already he plays trump..& Ithaca 16 & 20 G prices headed skyward big time.. Onceabull

[45 2.1]

Thank You, i'll take a Model 12 or Browning A5 anyday over any Remington. When I worked for a gunsmith, I fixed 20 Remingtons for any Browning or Winchester that came in. Most of the problems with the Remingtons was the extractor or cartridge interuptor, otherwise they were pretty solid. The Brownings all were 50 years old or better.

[Denver]

I couldn't ever find a Mod 12 in 28 guage I could afford, but I snagged one of the Browning Mod 12s in 28 a few years back. Sweet!

Ron

[carpetman]

Started out Win Mod 12 and Rem 870---Now I have to throw in one of my favorites---My win 42-pump .410 3"chamber full choke and the serial number reads same frontwards or backwards---there is a term unknownst to me for that.

[StarMetal]

Ray,

A palindrome is a word or phrase which reads the same in both directions, don't know if it applies to numbers.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

Denver--

One fine acquisition, that little Browning 28!

Carpetman--

One of those M-42's would be nice, but I don't think I need many more 410's at present. I'd never shoot it anyway, Marie would snag it and I'd just be re-stuffing Super-X hulls for her like I do the 870 in that bore now.

[carpetman]

Dep Al--One day when I was a kid,my dad and I were duck hunting. Ducks just werent flying that day and we had had no luck. A duck flew over very high and I was taking aim while my dad was saying too far. I shot anyways and brought it down(luck). That was with the model 42 I mentioned. My dad said longest shot he ever saw with shotgun. One day I took it to a skeet/trap range. There was a guy there that was very good skeet shooter. He tried the little .410 and was most impressed. He said darn how far will this thing reach? He said he had been slow getting on one and still busted it and was purposefully letting them get way out of normal range. Full choke and 3" chamber ofcourse the reason for the distance. He tried hard to buy the gun,but I wouldnt sell it.

[shooter2]

I've always been a fan of the model 12. In scatterguns the fit is important and the 12 fit me. At least the ones I've had did. Alas, I have only one left, but it's a nice field grade at 95%+ made in 1946. As to the the model 42, they're getting very scarce and the prices continue to rise. Buy now if you can. Likewise a good Ithaca 37. JMHO.

[RugerFan]

I'm not familiar with the Win mod 12, but I can compare the Win 1200 to the Rem 870. As a prior small arms instructor at the US Army Ordnance Center & School, I can tell you that the 1200 does not stand up well over time after countless disassembly/reassembly and function testing compared to the 870. The 1200 turns into somewhat of a loose rattle-trap where as the 870 remains fairly solid. Not an entirely realistic scenario for the average gun owner though. This is somewhat of a "torture test" in the hands of students day in and day out, but interesting to observe none the less.

I have personally owned an 870 for 25 years and have never had any kind of malfunction.

[9.3X62AL]

I can only imagine how the trap snobs at the club Buckshot and I belong to would react to all this positive text about SLIDE ACTIONS. "Pumps.......HHMMMMPH!"

Rugerfan--total agreement on the 1200 vs. 870 durability question. My 1200 is almost 40 years old, but has been babied and cared for very well--as you might expect someone's first firearm to be! It still goes out for Opening Day of dove season, and after the birds smarten up it gets used on the longer shots that follow the birds' learning curve. Not nearly as rugged as my 870's for sure, but a lot of fond memories go afield when it does.

[carpetman]

This has turned into general discussion of shotguns so I have a couple of stories. I went to a garage sale late one morning. Lots of people coming and going--I guess most were women. Brand new in the box was a cheap .410 Snake Charmer for $10.00(not that cheap). Believe this or not---it was the HUSBAND that took my money. You would think a MAN would know better than to sell it for $10. I bought it and traded it for an 870 Rem with bent barrel and paid $50 boot. I did find another barrel,but I was probably from a $ standpoint better off with the Snake Charmer. Another day at a garage sale,I bought the only gun I have seen go down in value according to Blue Book. There was a single shot bolt action .410 for $125---a Winchester. I didnt have Blue Book with me and wasn't really familar with it,it was Model 41--I figured the $125 was probably top dollar. Got home and looked in the 12th Edition Blue Book(current at the time)and it listed $250-$1200 and said rare in 80%. This gun was atleast 95% ($800)so I scrambled back across town and it was still there. If you look in the 11th Edition--just one year earlier it was $200-to max of $400)--quite a jump. 13th Edition still had the high dollar that the 12th listed. But the 14th Edition it dropped $200-to max of $525. I quit buying Blue Books due to a dispute I had with them,but the latest I have is 22nd Edition and the model 41 shows $200-$575.

[Bret4207]

Ithaca 37 all the way. Own a 16 ga and want a 20 and 12. I don't think they ever made a 28 or 410, but I'm not up on that. I hear the Ithaca plant just closed down. Too bad I didn't get that English Ultra light and Waterfowler I wanted. I agree with Joe that a BPS is just as nice.

[StarMetal]

Tpr Bret

Oh yeah, I wanted one of those Ithica English Ultra Lights. Something about straight stock short barreled pump shotguns does it for me. I think the 16 ga is the best all round gauge there is and am convinced the gunrags had almost 100 % to do with it's demise. I also feel for you don't need a 12 ga for small game hunting, thus the reason for my Browning straight stock short barrels in 20 ga.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

I don't think the Ithaca 37 ever came in 28 or 410 gauge, unfortunately. Model 12's in 28 gauge will set ya back a buck or two, for certain. It is a shame that the Ithaca company closed down.

The 16 gauge is a fine chambering, and assuming similar shot load weights, there isn't a bit of difference between it and the 12 gauge in terms of field effectiveness. It can be handloaded to all levels between 12 gauge heavy field (1-1/4 oz. @ 1300 FPS) down to 28 gauge target (3/4 oz. @ 1200 FPS). With the 16 gauge, it helps to reload your own shells. The 16 gauge's problems were two-fold.........1) it wasn't one of the exalted skeet gauges (12/20/28/410), so it had quite a handicap with the clay sports--which are the lifeblood of shotgunning R&D. The only reason the 28 gauge survives today is its skeet usage, although it is a very efficient small bird shell. The onset of non-toxic shot in ~1980 was the last nail in the 16 gauge's coffin, since it's longest tube length of 2-9/16" would not support the lighter steel shot and its attendant need for room to carry the long shot columns--e.g., 3-1/2" 12 gauge hulls.

For those with Barnes' "Cartridges of the World", a review of the shotshell chapter will show that at one time there was a wide assortment of shotshell gauges available--many of which now are obsolete.

[carpetman]

My dad's hunting partner mentioned that my dad having 12 guage and he was shooting either a 20 or 16 guage that my dad had unfair advantage in that he could reach further. My dad said range would be the same. So they got two magazines and and placed them at distance and shot them. I would not have expected it to be this close,but it was the exact same number of pages they penetrated. I am very fond of the 20 guage,but never cared for 16 guage. Reason is,to me they seem to kick more than a 12 guage,so if moving up from 20--I'd go on to the 12 guage.

[Scrounger]

Sixteen gauge is the only one of the common ones I have never owned. Back in the days when I shot skeet, I owned and loaded for 12, 20, 28, and .410. My observations were that it was real hard (for me) to break birds with the .410 but the 12, 20, and 28 all worked equally well. When I realized I was never going to be real good at it, I got rid of everything but the 12. As I got older and more recoil concious, I started loading it down. One ounce, then 7/8ths, finally 3/4ths ounce. Just for drill I even developed some 1/2 ounce loads in the 12 ga hull. Worked fine but a lot of trouble to make. When I moved here I figured out I wouldn't be shooting anymore trap or skeet so I sold my Citori and had no shotgun at all for awhile. Then thought I should get one for home protection and picked up a 12 ga Rem 870 with 21 inch barrel and choke tubes. A do it all gun. I've always wanted a short barrel double for ??? Yesterday I got one on AuctionArms, a 12 ga Stoeger.It will become my beside-the-bed gun. I may have to start loading 12 ga again just to get nice light loads for me and my nephew's kids to shoot some clay birds in the desert. I remember one day about 35 years ago I fired over 500 full power trap loads in one day and went bowling that night. No pain. Now such shenanigans would put me on the DL for a week or more. Isn't getting old fun????

[Char-Gar]

I own three shotguns and plan to own no more.

1. Browning Light 20 auto (A-5) I bought this new in 1966 and still continue to use it as my principal shotgun. A quail gun deluxe!

2. Ithaca 37 Police Special. This first belonged to the New Mexico State Police and then the Luna County (New Mexico) SO. When the SO dumped them, I bought one and keep it for home security. One fine shotgun.

3. Winchester 12 (12 gage) with a 30" barrel. This is a truly primo 1958 vintage shotgun. It came as a full choke barrel. I had Briley install Mod, Imp. Cyl. and Skeet choke tubes. In spite of the long barrel, it is a lively and wonderful shotgun. Great dove, pheasant, and skeet gun.

I have no interest in any other.

[sundog]

Charger, 10-4 on the Ithaca 37! It's my 'go-to'. I have had opportunity over the years to use a 16g LC Smith double. One fine shotgun! To me, the 16 is just the cat's meow. Just don't understand why it is not all that popular. sundog

[StarMetal]

Sundog the 16 ga isn't all that popular because many years ago the gunrags said it wasn't needed that the 20 ga and 12 ga handled everything and all the idiots that read that believed that and 16 ga declined in sells. That's my opinion.

Joe

[Scrounger]

Charger, 10-4 on the Ithaca 37! It's my 'go-to'. I have had opportunity over the years to use a 16g LC Smith double. One fine shotgun! To me, the 16 is just the cat's meow. Just don't understand why it is not all that popular. sundog

The 16 is not popular because it isn't necessary. The modern 20 gauge can match it. The 12 gauge of course exceeds it but the 12 can also be loaded down to match the 16 if desired. Adding another gauge in firearms and ammunition would complicate matters for manufacturers. And make it harder for buyers to make up their minds. For all practical purposes we now have TWO gauges, 12 and 20. Yes, a few 28 gauges are made, and quite a few more .410s, but note the increased prices for them. And that price increase is even more noticeable in ammunition. Those gauges are on their way to being as obsolete as the 16. And in time the 20 will follow them. The 12 gauge can easily be loaded to match the ballistics of any of the other gauges, with better patterning as a bonus. Shotguns will be lightened and improved. It's what they call progress.

[sundog]

Joe and Scrounger, well, sometimes progress just plain sucks.... {BSEG} sundog

[Bret4207]

Re- Scroungers post: The same thing was said about the 30-30, 45-70, 38 Special, 32-20, 250 Savage, 222 Rem, 38-40, 44-40, 455 Webley, 41 Mag, .410 2/12" , etc, etc, etc. Oh yeah, cast bullets too. Time will tell.

[9.3X62AL]

More often than not, I wish the gunrag scribblers would just SHUT THE HELL UP. They know little or nothing of what they speak in many cases, and the hobbyists and sportsman would be better served by IGNORING their pontificating nonsense.

Rant concluded--and we return you to your regular programming.

[StarMetal]

Art,

You sound just the gunrags articles. Same line of bull they gave. Not saying you're giving a line of bull, just it's what they said to a T. The same thing about the 20 ga can match it and the 12 ga can be loaded down. Bunk, horsehockey. No gauge is going to equal another gauge simply for the fact that the shot column will be different due to packing shot into different diameter bores. So when the shot column string is different so are the patterns. I don't buy that it would cause confusion either. Shuck as though there are only a few rifles calibers and a few handgun calibers NOT. The fact is and still remains is that the 20 is slightly too small for some things and the 12 is slighty overkill for somethings. The 16 sets in a perfect niche and I remember when the gunrags said all this nonsense in the mid sixties and up. Guns & Ammo being one. Hell in 1964 a ragauthor in G & A said the 22 mag was a piece of crap and for the extra cost that it didn't have that must more power to offer over a 22 Long Rifle. HA! what a line that was. Easy way to shut that fellow up would be to ask him: If you had to be shot, would you prefer it to be with a 22 LR hollowpoint or a 22 mag hollowpoint? See what he would say, I bet the 22 LR. I think to the contrary on 28 gauge, I have seen them become alot more popular and the costs is nothing because the richer skeet and trap shooters are the ones that buy them. I know of none of my friends that hunt with a 28 ga alone own one. Hell the 10 ga even got more popular with the demise of the 16 AND they now have out that brutal 3 1/2 inch magnum 12 gauge. No confusion there huh.

It was the gunrags.

Joe

[Scrounger]

It has been proved already that a shorter shot column gives more uniform patterns. One reason is there is less deformed shot. But all that is not important anyway. It will happen that way simply because of the economics of manufacture and sales. A steadily decreasing volume of buyers only speeds the process along. We may not like it but that's the way it is and will be. I'm disappointed to hear the gun rags or anyone else agrees with me...

[omgb]

I own a Mod 12 from 1925, a Stevens 4500 SxS in 16 GA from 1955, a Fox Model B SxS in 12 GA from 1952 and a new Ruger Gold Lable SxS in 12 GA. I used the M12 for ducks until the steel shot rules made that impossible in the early 80s. The Fox was my upland game gun until I bought the 16 Ga a few years ago. The Ruger is now my favorite gun. It is lighter than either the 16 GA or any of the 12s at 6.4 lbs. The frame is as small as that of the Stevens 16 GA and it has interchangable chokes. It is faster on point and it fits better with its English stock and 151/2" LOP. I suspect that the Rugar wilol be my last shotgun. Unless that it, I can ever get my hands on a 16 GA Parker:)

R J Talley